The Official AVS Dish DTVPal DVR Topic! - Page 40 - AVS Forum
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Old 01-06-2009, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beeper View Post

2 months is how long the beta testers had them. Retail users have had them for about 2 weeks.

So someone within the company must have leaked out the "rebooting" problem that was alleged to have happened 10-12 months ago?
Must have been leaked about the same time as the 2008 CES show. Must have been a disgruntled employee?

RE: 2 months is how long the beta testers had them.

Today's date Jan-06-2009

(2) months would make that right about the 6th of Nov-2008.... So that means that the Beta Testers only had the product for 13-days, before pre-orders? (Nov 19-2008)..

If that is the case (which is doubtful), that wouldn't leave ANY time for changes before units went to production.

While I don't doubt some "beta-testers" only had access to units for such a short time, it's hard to believe a company would release the product to production without previous testing sessions.


.
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Old 01-06-2009, 07:26 PM
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I didn't get a chance to vote in the polls before they closed, but I've had my unit since Dec. 22, with no reboots/lockups. I have seen a tuner fail to get released after a recording attempt if I scheduled a recording for a channel where the signal was insufficient for a lock. Hours later the red light would still be on. Manually starting a recording and then stopping it seemed to release both tuners. I think I've seen a few reports of this by others.

I'm very happy with the unit.

Mark
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Old 01-06-2009, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeAreNotAlone69 View Post

RE: 2 months is how long the beta testers had them.

Today's date Jan-06-2009

(2) months would make that right about the 6th of Nov-2008.... So that means that the Beta Testers only had the product for 13-days, before pre-orders? (Nov 19-2008)..

If that is the case (which is doubtful), that wouldn't leave ANY time for changes before units went to production.

While I don't doubt some "beta-testers" only had access to units for such a short time, it's hard to believe a company would release the product to production without previous testing sessions.


.

Your math is pretty skewed. I think it was clear he meant the initial testers had the units 2 months before the pre-order window was opened in mid-November. But even if that was the case, the design was already locked for RTM. It would have to be, you don't just tool up a line and pop these things out of china over-night.

I hate to say it but it appears the initial testers were actually the alpha testers and all the early adopters are the real beta-testers, who got to pay for the privilege.

From all the posts and polls we're clearly in a situation where some fraction of shipped units work as advertised and the other fraction suffer the reboots/freezes to varying degrees. An example of chinese manufacturing and "QC" at it's finest. Anyone want to take bets on whether or not these boxes are made by funai.

- kelson h

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Old 01-06-2009, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nolim2873 View Post

This is my theory at the moment. Some area's TVGOS data has something in them that is causing problems in the DVR (crashes and reboots), while other area's don't have anything in the TVGOS data that will cause a problem (no reboots).

Perhaps some type of buffer overrun that is not being caught by the DVR software like they are always fixing in browser software.

Posted my comments on this topic on the Sony HDD forum here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...ostcount=13429

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Old 01-06-2009, 08:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken H View Post

Both polls have been closed. Please use this one topic for all related issues until a consensus is reached on how the poll should be set up, and who's going to do it.

Feel free to make suggestions right here.

Let me know via PM when, and I'll 'sticky' it.

Guys (and Ladies),

I think a poll of which owners are experiencing lock-up issues is a very good and hopefully useful tool. If there is anyone from Echostar watching AVS, then a poll will be the best way to communicate how big this problem could be. For those of us who have not yet purchased a DTVPal, the poll will be useful to level set the expectations.

Let's please get a new poll started.

I vote for two simple possibilities:

1) no lock-ups
2) I-ve seen lock-ups

I don't think an option of "yes, but they are fixed" makes sense as we cannot disprove a negative (we don't know why the lock-up happens, so we can't know how to fix it).

If someone want's to suggest some more fine tuned options (fw rev, TVGOS vs PSIP, ...) then please suggest them so that we can get a new poll put together.

Thanks,

-phil

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Old 01-06-2009, 08:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

Agreed, I've read more than enough to make me wait. As I noted earlier, I would wait at least until after the 2/17 shutdown and then some -- at least to March. By then the Jan 12 units will have shipped and be on hand for review and possibly a third wave may have made it out the door. Possibly even availability at the retail level.

I will say that if it was available at retail now with an easy in-store return policy, I would buy tomorrow -- even if the retail price was $300.

I've read enough problems here to reconsider my purchase. However, I've tried for three days to cancel my order with no success. I tried again this evening, but the guy stated that he wasn't sure of the process, but would contact the correct dept. Yeah right.

All three times, I was told to refuse the shipment and when the DVR returned, they would credit my account. Yeah right.

Has anyone else had any success at canceling an order?

Thanks!
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Old 01-06-2009, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starflight View Post

...
All three times, I was told to refuse the shipment ...

UPS just dumps it on your porch so if you want to refuse it get a tracking number so you know when it will be delivered and a lawn chair.
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Old 01-06-2009, 09:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilB View Post

Guys (and Ladies),

I vote for two simple possibilities:

1) no lock-ups
2) I-ve seen lock-ups

Thanks,

-phil

I agree with this simple poll with one change. Change lock-ups to include reboot. These are 2 specific conditions. My lock-up issues have mostly disappeared. I'm now experiencing primarily reboots. No action taken on my part to change the behavior.
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Old 01-06-2009, 09:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WillN937 View Post

"ANALOG PASS-THROUGH" allows you to record two shows and use your TV's tuner to watch a third signal. It says analog but it just passes the raw RF signal. In an earlier post someone measured the signal loss and determined that there is actually a small amount of gain.

I'm running an experiment right now to see if the reboot occurs when configured this way. I selected the ANALOG PASS-THROUGH, left the unit on, switched my TV to the antenna input (coax) instead of the DVR input (HDMI).

I won't be able to record in this configuration, won't be able to see Guide data, etc. But hopefully I'll be able to obtain additional behavior data.
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Old 01-06-2009, 10:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken H View Post

...

Feel free to make suggestions right here.

....

Are check boxes supported? I would like to see a bit more refinement. For example:

Radio buttons:
  • No events noted
  • At least one event
  • Events detract from utility

Check boxes:
  • Lockup - removed power to reset
  • Lockup - self recovered
  • Reboots
  • Skipped recording
  • Canceled recording
  • Record light failed to extinguish
  • ...

Might as well get as much information as we can while we are at it.
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Old 01-06-2009, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C Clark View Post

...
I won't be able to record in this configuration, won't be able to see Guide data, etc. But hopefully I'll be able to obtain additional behavior data.

You can record, you just have to start/schedule the recording before you select passthrough. To view the guide you have to switch back both the TV and DVR. It can get a little confusing since both have to be in the right mode but it can be done once you learn the dance. What you lose is the ability to pause and rewind live TV.
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Old 01-06-2009, 10:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilB View Post

Guys (and Ladies),

I think a poll of which owners are experiencing lock-up issues is a very good and hopefully useful tool. If there is anyone from Echostar watching AVS, then a poll will be the best way to communicate how big this problem could be. For those of us who have not yet purchased a DTVPal, the poll will be useful to level set the expectations.

Let's please get a new poll started.

I vote for two simple possibilities:

1) no lock-ups
2) I-ve seen lock-ups

I don't think an option of "yes, but they are fixed" makes sense as we cannot disprove a negative (we don't know why the lock-up happens, so we can't know how to fix it).

If someone want's to suggest some more fine tuned options (fw rev, TVGOS vs PSIP, ...) then please suggest them so that we can get a new poll put together.

Thanks,

-phil

Quote:
Originally Posted by C Clark View Post

I agree with this simple poll with one change. Change lock-ups to include reboot. These are 2 specific conditions. My lock-up issues have mostly disappeared. I'm now experiencing primarily reboots. No action taken on my part to change the behavior.

I cast my vote for simple, also.

IMHO, I think the 2-response poll by isnms was perfect. It gets right to the heart of the problem and simply tallies who is having problems and who is not. The more complicated and detailed you make the poll the less likely people will be willing to spend the time answering it and that will skew the results to those who are most motivated -- i.e. those with a problem.

If it were up to me, I would delete the MickeySoft Poll, then unlock and sticky the isnms poll.

- kelson h

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Old 01-06-2009, 11:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rflemin View Post

Another theory on the reboots: I was surfing trying to find information on a Sony laptop that started up and shut down almost immediately. One site said that there were bad capacitors (see below) in the power conditioning circuits that caused it to overheat and shut down to protect itself.

RE: Sony laptop that started up and shut down almost immediately.

On the desktop machine (From the trash @ local thrift store) I'm typing on right now it would barely make it past the BIOS screen, start to load the OS, then crash.

Fix? Re-apply thermo grease between CPU and heat sink.

On your laptop- On laptops they have a bad habit of sucking in dirt, hair etc... which clogs up the cooling system... so that is the first place to look.
http://www.laptopka.com/2006/04/11/l...ating-problem/



Picture of clogged laptop cooling system:




On the DTVPal DVR...as I've posted previously most manufacturers have their production spread between 2-3 factories, and source their parts from several different suppliers concurrently.

Reason?- Well if you have (1) factory and there's a strike or natural disaster you're screwed.... (Ditto on your parts suppliers).

What this means for those experiencing reboots /lockups etc is units (or parts) from factory 1 & 2 may be ok, and units, or parts coming from factory (or supplier) #3 may be defective /marginal.


Translation: Units that are locking up, etc came from the factory /supplier putting out sub-standard /marginal parts.


.
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Old 01-07-2009, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by WillN937 View Post

UPS just dumps it on your porch so if you want to refuse it get a tracking number so you know when it will be delivered and a lawn chair.

Fourth call, but there's no tracking number on the account. They do have my email address. Will they send a tracking number when the boxes ship?

Should I dispute the charges with the Visa CC now? Would that help stop the shipping and cancel the order?

Thanks
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Old 01-07-2009, 06:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starflight View Post

(...) Will they send a tracking number when the boxes ship?

No.
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Old 01-07-2009, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbuchana View Post

I didn't get a chance to vote in the polls before they closed, but I've had my unit since Dec. 22, with no reboots/lockups. I have seen a tuner fail to get released after a recording attempt if I scheduled a recording for a channel where the signal was insufficient for a lock. Hours later the red light would still be on. Manually starting a recording and then stopping it seemed to release both tuners. I think I've seen a few reports of this by others.

I'm very happy with the unit.

Mark

Same here...the polls were already closed before I could vote, but I haven't experienced any problems so far.
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Old 01-07-2009, 08:39 AM
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OK, I'm a bit confused now. I've been posting in the Fort Wayne, IN HDTV reception forum at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...69203&page=101 and a user says that he is getting 2 weeks worth of digital TV guide on his TV set. I'm only 13 miles south of Ft. Wayne and have tried everything I can think of.... NO GO! I put in my actual zip, waited 24 hours, nothing. I put in the alternate zip from the manual, waited 24 hours, nothing. I looked up the CBS stations zip and put it in, waited 24 hours, still nothing. I can only manage basic PSIP data and most channels only give me MAYBE 12 hours worth!

Anybody else have some tricks I can try?
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Old 01-07-2009, 08:47 AM
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I do have the latest firmware update via Ethernet.
(yes it was connected to broadband all the time)

The other day it just rebooted while watching a show
(Not recording at the time and none scheduled)
(it is now disconnected from the internet since the reboot and I will keep an eye to see if it does it again while not connected)


The other problem
I was in the other room but could hear the TV and suddenly no sound so I went to the Guide and it froze
could not do anything
could not get out of the guide
could not select another channel
could not turn off the unit with the remote
I had to unplug the unit to reboot
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Old 01-07-2009, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by autobot View Post

I do have the latest firmware update via Ethernet.
(yes it was connected to broadband all the time)

The other day it just rebooted while watching a show
(Not recording at the time and none scheduled)
(it is now disconnected from the internet since the reboot and I will keep an eye to see if it does it again while not connected)


The other problem
I was in the other room but could hear the TV and suddenly no sound so I went to the Guide and it froze
could not do anything
could not get out of the guide
could not select another channel
could not turn off the unit with the remote
I had to unplug the unit to reboot


Jeez, this sure sounds like déjÃ* vue all over again. I have been using an LG3410A DVR for the past four years, and have experienced frequent lockups which seem to at least some degree to be related to corruption of the TVGOS data, either at the source, in transmission, or by the local broadcaster. The LG3410A thread on this forum runs to some 5500+ posts, the great majority of which are TVGOS-related. Users have had to develop a variety of techniques to reboot the devices. While the Dish DTVPal DVR certainly seems to have more than its share of problems, I can't help but think that at least some of them are related to corrupt TVGOS data from the broadcaster. Gemstar has had at least four years to get this straightened out, with little success.
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Old 01-07-2009, 09:44 AM
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Count me as blaming TVGOS for the lockup and rebooting some have experienced.
Seems it's the current topic on Sony DHG-HDD250/500: Thread .
Lockups and reboots! (I own both boxes)
The problems are to similiar not to be related by a common denominator.
TVGOS

It's probably a geographical problem, depending where you get you TVGOS data and wither it's corupted data or not.

I'm sure there's other opinions..... this is just mine!
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Old 01-07-2009, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brandonmeyer View Post

OK, I'm a bit confused now. I've been posting in the Fort Wayne, IN HDTV reception forum at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...69203&page=101 and a user says that he is getting 2 weeks worth of digital TV guide on his TV set. I'm only 13 miles south of Ft. Wayne and have tried everything I can think of.... NO GO! I put in my actual zip, waited 24 hours, nothing. I put in the alternate zip from the manual, waited 24 hours, nothing. I looked up the CBS stations zip and put it in, waited 24 hours, still nothing. I can only manage basic PSIP data and most channels only give me MAYBE 12 hours worth!

Anybody else have some tricks I can try?

Apples and oranges: he's getting analog TVGOS data, not digital. Based on other posts, it seems digital has more frequent updates, and the device does not need to be turned off to receive them. He mentioned "my set will only update its guide data overnight if the TV is turned OFF. If it is on, it will NOT update itself. Also, it took several days before it finally got the entire two weeks worth of listings." Digital TVGOS doesn't seem to follow the same update schedule.

A Milwaukee user with a Sony DHG unit posted that he gets analog data just fine, but when he forces the unit to look at our CBS station for digital TVGOS data, it does not populate his guide. I think the digital TVGOS version is showing some teething problems...
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Old 01-07-2009, 10:51 AM
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So, can people start posting there location (City State, and maybe how far away you are from the signal).

I was waiting for this to come out but missed the first pre-order phase. I was getting ready to order, but found out these problems.
(I did a post in the cnet forums, more hoping they would do a review of them)

Can you download the firmware online? More I was trying to figure out if there was a site I could check when and if new firmware comes out?

I'll probably be waiting until after Jan 12 shipments start to go out. But if its a TVGOS problem, have people turned this off fix anything? (A quick google search shows people have had problems "TVGOS reboot" sense 2006)

Has anybody that had the problem actually found out a way to "fix" it? Has anybody that got back a replacement unit still had the problem?
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Old 01-07-2009, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WillN937 View Post

Are check boxes supported? I would like to see a bit more refinement. For example:

Radio buttons:
  • No events noted
  • At least one event
  • Events detract from utility
Check boxes:
  • Lockup - removed power to reset
  • Lockup - self recovered
  • Reboots
  • Skipped recording
  • Canceled recording
  • Record light failed to extinguish
  • ...
Might as well get as much information as we can while we are at it.

We need a poll. I don't care who adds one and I don't think we need a poll to determine what the pole should aske.

As far as I know, radio buttons and check boxes cannot be mixed in a poll. They have to be either all one or the other.

Maybe dfbtv should add one. He has been doing a good job monitoring this thread.

How about the following? I added the word "excessive" because my DTVPal froze about twice since I received it many months ago. I don't consider that excessive.


DTVPal DVR, Problems?

Have you been experiencing excessive reboot and/or freeze problems with your DTVPal DVR?

Yes
No
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Old 01-07-2009, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tubaloth View Post

(...) Can you download the firmware online? More I was trying to figure out if there was a site I could check when and if new firmware comes out?

At this site when you click Support, but not posted yet.
Quote:


Has anybody that had the problem actually found out a way to "fix" it? Has anybody that got back a replacement unit still had the problem?

Some of us have had no problems since disabling Updates (whether connected to the Internet or not).
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Old 01-07-2009, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck44 View Post

Some of us have had no problems since disabling Updates (whether connected to the Internet or not).

I think there is not one problem but several.

This is why I had the second option that you had a problem but fixed it in the poll.
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Old 01-07-2009, 01:21 PM
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Just to say again so people don't think everyone's box is bad, I've had mine since Dec. 23 and the only problem I"ve had is that one of my recordings said there was a problem with a certain recording due to lost signal.

I'm in the Mpls, MN area and the TV Guide portion has worked perfect as far as I can tell. Also I did update the firmware right away.
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Old 01-07-2009, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTV Sparky View Post

Count me as blaming TVGOS for the lockup and rebooting some have experienced.
Seems it's the current topic on Sony DHG-HDD250/500: Thread .
Lockups and reboots! (I own both boxes)
The problems are to similiar not to be related by a common denominator.
TVGOS

It's probably a geographical problem, depending where you get you TVGOS data and wither it's corupted data or not.

I'm sure there's other opinions..... this is just mine!

Does anyone in the COLUMBUS, OHIO market have a box that has the reboot/lockup problem(s)? Not someone on the fringe that is trying to pickup more than one DMA...just the WBNS TVGOS signal.

Bob
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Old 01-07-2009, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akbungle View Post

Just to say again so people don't think everyone's box is bad, I've had mine since Dec. 23 and the only problem I"ve had is that one of my recordings said there was a problem with a certain recording due to lost signal.

I'm in the Mpls, MN area and the TV Guide portion has worked perfect as far as I can tell. Also I did update the firmware right away.

I am not convinced that it is the box. I believe it is TVGOS or how the box is being used (how many events are scheduled). Since I reset to factory defaults and started adding events I have not had a reboot. Didn't have one before for at least a week.
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Old 01-07-2009, 02:08 PM
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A possible remedy? Perform 'Restore factory defaults'


Quote:
Originally Posted by rustycruiser View Post

...After my series of lockups, I restored the unit to factory defaults (menu>setup>system setup>factory defaults), redid the initial install/setup using the options listed above, and reset the counters to zero (menu>setup>system setup>diagnostics>counters>reset). Since then, zero lockups or restarts, and my No of Power Cycles is 0...

Quote:
Originally Posted by WillN937 View Post

...Since I reset to factory defaults and started adding events I have not had a reboot...

I performed the restore factory defaults procedure within the first two days, to clean up after early tinkering and one 'failed to start' timer, and I have no reboots or freezes.

I tried to search the thread to see if anyone that has done the restore still experiences the problem but did not find it if it's there.
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Old 01-07-2009, 02:19 PM
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One thing that may help -
Do that "Restore Factory Defaults" before you start using it / after each S/W upgrade. This will NOT delete your recordings (you have to format the Harddrive to do that).

You CAN put antennas on your owned and/or controlled property...
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

Being A Beacon of Knowledge in the darkness of FUD
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