The Official AVS Dish DTVPal DVR Topic! - Page 467 - AVS Forum
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post #13981 of 18554 Old 02-15-2012, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Scooper View Post

Because Echostar had their developers write to the spec of receiving TVGOS - they did not license software from Rovi. Which is also why when there are problems with it - Rovi is less than helpful.

They are helpful if the problem is with the signal or the station but they will not fix your DVR software.
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post #13982 of 18554 Old 02-15-2012, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by frank70 View Post

While the TVGOS data might be "miniscule" compared to an MPEG stream for one or more video channels, it's hardly in the range of a few thousand bytes a day. In a typical DMA, there are in the vicinity of 600 channels worth of data for 8 days; conservatively estimating 24 shows per day per channel, that's 115000 shows, each of which carries (among other things) descriptive text on the order of 100-200 bytes. Add in zip code mappings and the graphics for logos/ads, and ancillary show information (start time, end time, rating, new-or-rerun) and I'll bet a single pass of all the data adds up to 25+ megabytes. And multiple passes go by each day on some kind of a schedule which I never became acquainted with.

I don't have the background to understand some of that (600 channels?), but even if 25+ MB is a perfectly decent estimate, that figure still strikes me as miniscule. In fact, it seems so small a percentage of the available bandwidth that I really do not get why any station engineer would fret over the loss of that amount. OTOH, maybe the TVGOS data scheme transmits that 25+ MB way more often per unit time than I realize. If that's so, it leads to other questions.
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post #13983 of 18554 Old 02-15-2012, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by jrpastore View Post

I agree completely, the daily bandwidth requirements for TVGOS data, relative to the ATSC capacity of 19 Mbps, can only be described as miniscule and I made that point to KEYE back during the Austin issue. What I don't know is:

- what increments of HD Video compression are available at the station?

- exactly how much "headroom" of empty bandwidth does the ROVI encoder need in order to function without skewing the clock?

In any case, I can still see the station's point of view, that it's not worth their time/trouble/risk to mess with it in order to solve a problem experienced by 0.00001% of their viewers.

Good points, all. As for the latter one, I have no actual statistics on the number of TVGOS users there are, but your number is probably not far off (unfortunately).
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post #13984 of 18554 Old 02-15-2012, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by jrpastore View Post

I wouldn't think so, but it would mean "robbing Peter to pay Paul" in that they would either have to further compress their primary HD video stream (degrading picture quality slightly) or get rid of a subchannel in order to free up the additional bandwidth. If you read the email I got from KEYE back in 2010, you'll see how eager some affiliates are to do either of those.



Based on a quick survey of null packets (reserve bandwidth) that we did for TVGOS providing affiliates around the country back in 2010, I'd say "very little" is the answer to your question. But bear in mind this solution (in my jargon "retaining INLINE mode" and simply increasing compression of the HD video to free up more bandwidth) is NOT the solution that ROVI is proposing. Probably because it would leave the station susceptible to recurrence of the problem in the future if some other (even slight) new burden is placed on bandwidth in the future. Rather ROVI is proposing to physically rewire the installation of their encoder (in my jargon "changing to DISCREET mode"). Unlike the answer to your #1 above, this sounds like it would be significantly more effort on the part of the station and would also require the same "robbing Peter to pay "Paul" because if they dedicate a certain bandwidth to the ROVI box and they're evidently already running "full out" then it has to come from somewhere. Again, read the response from the KEYE Tech Director to better understand the affiliate perspective.

I read it earlier, and did find it interesting. Especially telling was the fact that KEYE's tech dir was trying to pawn off the job of carrying the ROVI data on some other station in his market area.
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post #13985 of 18554 Old 02-15-2012, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by jrpastore View Post

Fantastic analysis! So the working theory that we've had for nearly two years now has been validated in detail by empirical data. Looks like we know exactly what's happening and why and how. We know what ROVI says the fix is, essentially; "Alter the environment of the ROVI box so that it never encounters a lack of bandwidth". Some affiates are evidently unwilling to make those alterations and some of them at least say they are working on it.

Two other interesting points caught my eye in that email from KEYE:

- ROVI doesn't pay the affiliate anything for hosting their equipment

- ROVI's original recommended installation mode was the one I called "INLINE (scavenger)". This means ROVI must have originally thought they had engineered the box to be fault tolerant in that operating environment. So the new ROVI recommendation (re-wire encoder and provide dedicated bandwidth) amounts to a defacto admission that their hardware has proven not to be fault tolerant in their originally recommended environment. I'm guessing a firmware fix wasn't possible and they didn't want to spend the $ to build hundreds of new encoders so they have the nerve to ask the broadcaster (who apparently they aren't even paying!) to spend some engineering resources and accept some bandwidth compromises in order to work around their hardware flaw! Unbelievable!

Someone just said that all DVRs except for the DVRPAL show ads along with the ROVI data, that these ads are generally for CBS-related products, so it seems the ads are in fact the "pay" you are speaking about.
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post #13986 of 18554 Old 02-15-2012, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by P Smith View Post

I could add it for you ... when source code will be available ...

LOL I will always have a built-in TECH support. YOU
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post #13987 of 18554 Old 02-15-2012, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J-D-H View Post

I don't have the background to understand some of that (600 channels?), but even if 25+ MB is a perfectly decent estimate, that figure still strikes me as miniscule. In fact, it seems so small a percentage of the available bandwidth that I really do not get why any station engineer would fret over the loss of that amount. OTOH, maybe the TVGOS data scheme transmits that 25+ MB way more often per unit time than I realize. If that's so, it leads to other questions.

Just take the numbers from my/other posted logs, why you still guessing when I did told where is it the stat with numbers ?
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post #13988 of 18554 Old 02-16-2012, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by J-D-H View Post

I read it earlier, and did find it interesting. Especially telling was the fact that KEYE's tech dir was trying to pawn off the job of carrying the ROVI data on some other station in his market area.

I don't know if "pawn off" is a fair characterization. I would have done the same thing in his shoes, and I wouldn't feel that I had dodged any responsibility. Remember that he worked the issue with ROVI for months (swapping encoders, etc) prior to writing that email, and remember that CBS ads notwithstanding, he was never compensated for his trouble. I'd say he went "above and beyond" the call of duty and was well within his rights to wash his hands of this ROVI-created mess.
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post #13989 of 18554 Old 02-16-2012, 07:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J-D-H View Post

Someone just said that all DVRs except for the DVRPAL show ads along with the ROVI data, that these ads are generally for CBS-related products, so it seems the ads are in fact the "pay" you are speaking about.

Maybe so. That would explain why most TVGOS stations are CBS affiliates. It would not explain why any other stations (like the current ABC affiliate in Austin) would bother with ROVI, unless maybe ROVI is coughing up a little cash as a sweetener for the non-CBS stations...
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post #13990 of 18554 Old 02-16-2012, 04:48 PM
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Bought a used DTVPal six months ago and it's been working fine. Today, it appears that the tuner died. The menus show up but no picture - but the signal strength showed something like 147. Clearly wacked. I clicked through some setup menus and now it's stuck in the Antenna Wizard menu. A soft reset with the remote power button and powering down for hours won't shake it.

Any tips on A. getting it to reset, and B. what's up with the tuner?
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post #13991 of 18554 Old 02-16-2012, 06:26 PM
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Bring it to a EE lab ...

Really , how you suppose to fix it ? What could be taken from your description ?
Actually it has two tuners.
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post #13992 of 18554 Old 02-16-2012, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Echo-Echo View Post

Bought a used DTVPal six months ago and it's been working fine. Today, it appears that the tuner died. The menus show up but no picture - but the signal strength showed something like 147. Clearly wacked. I clicked through some setup menus and now it's stuck in the Antenna Wizard menu. A soft reset with the remote power button and powering down for hours won't shake it.

Any tips on A. getting it to reset, and B. what's up with the tuner?

Try leaving it unplugged over night.
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post #13993 of 18554 Old 02-16-2012, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P Smith View Post

Bring it to a EE lab ...

Really , how you suppose to fix it ? What could be taken from your description ?
Actually it has two tuners.

Just curious what is a EE LAB? What does EE stand for?
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post #13994 of 18554 Old 02-16-2012, 07:32 PM
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Echo-Echo laboratory.
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post #13995 of 18554 Old 02-16-2012, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by P Smith View Post

Echo-Echo laboratory.

WHat is an Echo Echo lab do? And Do not say fix DTVPALS
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post #13996 of 18554 Old 02-16-2012, 08:42 PM
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If I'll tell you, there will be drones in 30 min
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post #13997 of 18554 Old 02-16-2012, 09:11 PM
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If I'll tell you, there will be drones in 30 min

So in other words there is no such thing.
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post #13998 of 18554 Old 02-16-2012, 09:14 PM
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C'mon. It's just a room with bunch of testing equipment: scopes, L-analyzers, generators, DMM, FLIRT cameras, iron tools, power supplies ... Like my garage
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post #13999 of 18554 Old 02-16-2012, 10:47 PM
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Weird, I also got that error even there is no connection configured. It's not like there is a newer firmware! :P
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post #14000 of 18554 Old 02-17-2012, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P Smith View Post

Bring it to a EE lab ...

Really , how you suppose to fix it ? What could be taken from your description ?
Actually it has two tuners.

Was that supposed to be helpful or just annoying? Because you failed on the former and achieved the latter.

"What could be taken from your description?" What does that even mean? My description was clear: the unit is stuck on the Setup Wizard screen. I can navigate within that screen but the Cancel button is grayed out. Leaving the unit unplugged overnight did nothing - it booted in that screen again this morning.

My question remains: is there a hard reset that can be performed other than unplugging the unit or holding the power button on the remote (because neither of those things works)?
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post #14001 of 18554 Old 02-17-2012, 08:51 AM
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OK.
By your description, you'll not fix it. No reset what will help you. NO service exist for fixing the device. Sell it for parts at eBay.
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post #14002 of 18554 Old 02-17-2012, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by P Smith View Post

C'mon. It's just a room with bunch of testing equipment: scopes, L-analyzers, generators, DMM, FLIRT cameras, iron tools, power supplies ... Like my garage

Hehe Thanks for the description.
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post #14003 of 18554 Old 02-17-2012, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by P Smith View Post

I could add it for you ... when source code will be available ...

How "kind" of you!

Reunite Pangea!
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post #14004 of 18554 Old 02-17-2012, 04:41 PM
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A number of comments related to today's Congressional decision to auction off parts of the RF spectrum have been deleted. There is a dedicated topic 'stuck' at the top of the HDTV Technical forum, where discussion of this subject is taking place: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1216722 For the most current news, start on the last page and work backwards. It will roughly take two years or more before before OTA viewers would be affected by these auctions, if then.

This topic is about the DTVPal. Please keep on topic.

'Better Living Through Modern, Expensive, Electronic Devices'

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post #14005 of 18554 Old 02-19-2012, 10:26 AM
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Will this hard drive work(well?) in my DTVPal DVR? It is a SATA 7200 500Gb drive but is not listed in the replacement drive list at the beginning of this thread?

Seagate Barracuda ES 500Gb Hard Drive
SATA
7200RPM
3.5"
P/N ST3500630NS

Thanks for the help!
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post #14006 of 18554 Old 02-19-2012, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrpastore View Post

I don't know if "pawn off" is a fair characterization. I would have done the same thing in his shoes, and I wouldn't feel that I had dodged any responsibility. Remember that he worked the issue with ROVI for months (swapping encoders, etc) prior to writing that email, and remember that CBS ads notwithstanding, he was never compensated for his trouble. I'd say he went "above and beyond" the call of duty and was well within his rights to wash his hands of this ROVI-created mess.

Who knows whether the station and/or the tech director have been properly compensated for their effort to straighten out the ROVI problem. However I assume that someone in authority at his station (or at the network?) accepted the responsibility and contracted to handle these ROVI data. If the station has gone to more trouble than they bargained for, it sounds like a legal action is in order. As for the CBS ads someone mentioned, I have no clue how to evaluate their monetary value in this deal.
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post #14007 of 18554 Old 02-19-2012, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P Smith View Post

Just take the numbers from my/other posted logs, why you still guessing when I did told where is it the stat with numbers ?

If you know the overall percentage bandwidth the TVGOS data effectively represents, why not just quote the number?
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post #14008 of 18554 Old 02-19-2012, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrpastore View Post

Maybe so. That would explain why most TVGOS stations are CBS affiliates. It would not explain why any other stations (like the current ABC affiliate in Austin) would bother with ROVI, unless maybe ROVI is coughing up a little cash as a sweetener for the non-CBS stations...

Oh, that's interesting. The TVGOS stations here in the Wash DC/Baltimore area are all CBS affiliates and I assumed this was universal.
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post #14009 of 18554 Old 02-19-2012, 10:52 AM
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Does a hard drive have to spin at 7200 in order to work properly in the DTVPal DVR?
It looks like the the Western Digital WD5000AVVS spins at 5400? Or is that not the correct drive which is listed in the drive list on page 1 of this thread?

Thanks!
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post #14010 of 18554 Old 02-19-2012, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Morris View Post

Will this hard drive work(well?) in my DTVPal DVR? It is a SATA 7200 500Gb drive but is not listed in the replacement drive list at the beginning of this thread?

Seagate Barracuda ES 500Gb Hard Drive
SATA
7200RPM
3.5"
P/N ST3500630NS

Thanks for the help!

You need a drive that is designed for AV use. They have lower power consumption and are less noisy. There firmware is designed for fast streaming instead of random read/writes.
An example of one is here.
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