The Official AVS Dish DTVPal DVR Topic! - Page 611 - AVS Forum
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post #18301 of 18329 Old 08-28-2014, 10:14 PM
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Wow - same problem on two different Pals?

Sounds like the time zone got reset to GMT somehow. But how that would happen on two different boxes is beyond me. Also don't know why guide data is suddenly missing. Seems pretty unlikely that every Chicago station's PSIP would go on the fritz all at once.

Maybe there was a station whose PSIP was so screwy it caused these problems somehow. I'd probably resort to a factory defaults reset. Hopefully that will both let you reset the time zone and fix the EPG, but no guarantees
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post #18302 of 18329 Old 08-28-2014, 11:02 PM
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Ok, I was going to try EaseUs Partition Master (there's a clone option in there), but that wouldn't allow the old EARS Pal drive to be a source. DriveImageXML didn't display the drive. I did try HDD Raw Copy Tool (from HDDGuru), which is supposed to do sector by sector, and let it run for seven hours. There were around 30 read errors, but it seemed like it worked. When I plugged in the new HDD, however, it was like a blank disk with 142 hours and no old shows. I guess I'll try different cloning programs or maybe first try MHDD, Spinrite, or HDD Regenerator and then copy it again.
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post #18303 of 18329 Old 08-28-2014, 11:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JHBrandt View Post
Wow - same problem on two different Pals?

Sounds like the time zone got reset to GMT somehow. But how that would happen on two different boxes is beyond me. Also don't know why guide data is suddenly missing. Seems pretty unlikely that every Chicago station's PSIP would go on the fritz all at once.

Maybe there was a station whose PSIP was so screwy it caused these problems somehow. I'd probably resort to a factory defaults reset. Hopefully that will both let you reset the time zone and fix the EPG, but no guarantees
The time zone was correct or 1 hour off. I can't remember if I changed it but it was not GMT. About a year ago I did factory resets cus it the clock was drifting too far off, The reset helped for that. The zip code was still correct. After a factory reset it's quite tedious to get 3 different remote addresses on the 2 Pals and the VIP622. It's real easy to change a remote address and find I just set all 3 to the same one. I may set a few manual timers using the printed tv listing.
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post #18304 of 18329 Old 08-29-2014, 02:41 AM
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Originally Posted by bootymonger View Post
Ok, I was going to try EaseUs Partition Master (there's a clone option in there), but that wouldn't allow the old EARS Pal drive to be a source. DriveImageXML didn't display the drive. I did try HDD Raw Copy Tool (from HDDGuru), which is supposed to do sector by sector, and let it run for seven hours. There were around 30 read errors, but it seemed like it worked. When I plugged in the new HDD, however, it was like a blank disk with 142 hours and no old shows. I guess I'll try different cloning programs or maybe first try MHDD, Spinrite, or HDD Regenerator and then copy it again.
Yes,you missed first important step of HDD roubleshooting: get SMART data (MHDD would be best);then run it for Scan+Remap=on,then get SMART again and analyzing both make a decision.
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post #18305 of 18329 Old 08-29-2014, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by johnd393 View Post
We've been watching Dish for a couple weeks and didn't look at my 2 DtvPal's for a while. I now find both DtvPals have lost all guide data. Every channel has "No information Available". We had a couple short power interuptions recently. I found the time 6 hours off on both boxes. All the timers , about 3 each box, had changed from prime time shows 7,8,or 9 pm to like 2 or 3am. I deleted some unwanted recordings' but I don't recall any 2,or 3am stuff. I did a soft reset on one but I think it did both, even though they are set to different remote addresses. After the soft reset the clocks were still 6 hours off. The minutes were close. I deleted the timers, reset the clocks. A full day has passed and still no guide information. We are in the Chicago reception area and had guide info from most channels before. Any thoughts?
The power loss screwed things up. Do a factory defaults reset and start over from scratch.
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post #18306 of 18329 Old 08-29-2014, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by johnd393 View Post
We've been watching Dish for a couple weeks and didn't look at my 2 DtvPal's for a while. I now find both DtvPals have lost all guide data. Every channel has "No information Available".
This happens regularly with all of my PalDVRs when not used regularly. When first turned on, they don't pick up the PSIP schedules until you watch live TV and go through the channels so they tune in to each station and then download their data.
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post #18307 of 18329 Old 08-29-2014, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by P Smith View Post
Yes,you missed first important step of HDD roubleshooting: get SMART data (MHDD would be best);then run it for Scan+Remap=on,then get SMART again and analyzing both make a decision.
I figured I'd try a raw copy with the bad sectors and no other action since the old drive can play the videos (in a jerky way, but they play) and see what happens. I fear that remapping will somehow make the failing drive stop working at all (or get formatted the next time I put it back). Is that a reasonable concern? I kind of assumed a few bad sectors are OK for video files (who cares if you lose a few frames here and there), but maybe remapping will make the raw copy work better and actually "catch" on the new drive instead of just being reformatted?

Before I try any remapping, is there something this data from Victoria tells me about my prospects? SMART and then scan results (with ignore, not remap or restore selected) are below. I assume these numbers are terrible, but do you think a remapping would actually improve things or make it worse? (I can always try, but I might want to watch a few things first if there's a good chance trying to remap so many bad sectors will make it worse). I can try MHDD as well. It's kind of a learning process as well as an attempt at transferring the shows to the new HDD. Thanks again for any comments and input!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
ID Name Value Worst Tresh Raw Health
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 Raw read error rate 200 199 51 67261 •••••
3 Spin-up time 132 131 21 6366 •••••
4 Number of spin-up times 100 100 0 42 •••••
5 Reallocated sector count 200 200 140 0 •••••
7 Seek error rate 200 200 0 0 •••••
9 Power-on time 53 53 0 34372 •• (been on for 4 years in Pal since new)
10 Spin-up retries 100 253 0 0 •••••
11 Recalibration retries 100 253 0 0 •••••
12 Start/stop count 100 100 0 39 •••••
192 Power-off retract count 200 200 0 36 •••••
193 Load/unload cycle count 198 198 0 7448 •••••
194 HDA Temperature 114 107 0 33°C/91°F ••••
196 Reallocated event count 200 200 0 0 •••••
197 Current pending sectors 192 192 0 1460 •••••
198 Offline scan UNC sectors 195 192 0 815 •••••
199 Ultra DMA CRC errors 200 200 0 0 •••••
200 Multi zone error rate 184 175 0 3267 •••••


A 4 hour Victoria scan (without remap or restore) concluded:
5:15:16 : ***** Scan results: Warnings - 205, errors - 294 *****
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post #18308 of 18329 Old 08-29-2014, 10:02 AM
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For those that may have similar freezing/locking-up problems with their PAL, the attached jpg shows the four electrolytic caps I replaced that fixed my F/L problems.... Caps numbered 1 & 2 had noticeable tops bulging and the two others were only guilty by association - being in the same proximity as the bad boys.(Not scientific, but, it signifies circuitry that exhibits a higher load for the caps to work with). Caps 2 and the other just below it are believed to be involved with main power input filtering to the large PC Board, affecting the main power bus with the others scattered throughout for local filtering of power for the components in their near proximity.. As stated earlier, cap # 1 was the most likely suspect as its degraded performance would be a definite problem for the LSI chip. I will continue to monitor my PAL performance and will be on the lookout for the obvious bulging cap tops.... Although your units caps may not all need to be replaced, I would suggest at least to change any bulging tops and the larger caps that would necessarily work under a larger load, the caps on the separate power supply board especially. I will probably just keep an eye on performance and as my spares will not last indefinitely, they should be around for any failures in the near future....
I have had my PAL DVR since the beginning, pre-ordered. Actually, the second one, they replaced the first one a month after I received it. Anyway to the point. My box is starting to freeze and I have to pull the power every day or two. So, I know it is dying, and yes, more than likely bad caps.

My question, where did you get your capacitors and can I buy only one or two. I will replace the 4 that you suggested and prefer to have them in my hand before I open my box. I had a device that I replaced the caps last year and I was able to get the caps locally at Radio Shack, but that was sheer luck to find the correct caps that would work.

thanks for your help
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post #18309 of 18329 Old 08-29-2014, 10:25 AM
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I think post The Official AVS Dish DTVPal DVR Topic! answers your questions..
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post #18310 of 18329 Old 08-29-2014, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clarkss12 View Post
I have had my PAL DVR since the beginning, pre-ordered. Actually, the second one, they replaced the first one a month after I received it. Anyway to the point. My box is starting to freeze and I have to pull the power every day or two. So, I know it is dying, and yes, more than likely bad caps.

My question, where did you get your capacitors and can I buy only one or two. I will replace the 4 that you suggested and prefer to have them in my hand before I open my box. I had a device that I replaced the caps last year and I was able to get the caps locally at Radio Shack, but that was sheer luck to find the correct caps that would work.

thanks for your help
Blind replacement of electrolytic capacitors wouldn't be bad, but could improve nothing if problem in different spot. Need do make real diagnostic first.
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post #18311 of 18329 Old 08-29-2014, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete-N2 View Post
I think post The Official AVS Dish DTVPal DVR Topic! answers your questions..
Perfect, thanks
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post #18312 of 18329 Old 08-29-2014, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by bootymonger View Post
I figured I'd try a raw copy with the bad sectors and no other action since the old drive can play the videos (in a jerky way, but they play) and see what happens. I fear that remapping will somehow make the failing drive stop working at all (or get formatted the next time I put it back). Is that a reasonable concern? I kind of assumed a few bad sectors are OK for video files (who cares if you lose a few frames here and there), but maybe remapping will make the raw copy work better and actually "catch" on the new drive instead of just being reformatted?

Before I try any remapping, is there something this data from Victoria tells me about my prospects? SMART and then scan results (with ignore, not remap or restore selected) are below. I assume these numbers are terrible, but do you think a remapping would actually improve things or make it worse? (I can always try, but I might want to watch a few things first if there's a good chance trying to remap so many bad sectors will make it worse). I can try MHDD as well. It's kind of a learning process as well as an attempt at transferring the shows to the new HDD. Thanks again for any comments and input!
Code:
 -------------------------------------------------------------------------
  ID      Name                   Value  Worst  Tresh       Raw    Health
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
  1 Raw read error rate           200    199     51        67261   ••••• 
  3 Spin-up time                  132    131     21         6366   ••••• 
  4 Number of spin-up times       100    100      0           42   ••••• 
  5 Reallocated sector count      200    200    140            0   ••••• 
  7 Seek error rate               200    200      0            0   ••••• 
  9 Power-on time                  53     53      0        34372   •• (been on for 4 years in Pal since new)   
 10 Spin-up retries               100    253      0            0   ••••• 
 11 Recalibration retries         100    253      0            0   ••••• 
 12 Start/stop count              100    100      0           39   ••••• 
192 Power-off retract count       200    200      0           36   ••••• 
193 Load/unload cycle count       198    198      0         7448   ••••• 
194 HDA Temperature               114    107      0    33°C/91°F   ••••  
196 Reallocated event count       200    200      0            0   ••••• 
197 Current pending sectors       192    192      0         1460   ••••• 
198 Offline scan UNC sectors      195    192      0          815   ••••• 
199 Ultra DMA CRC errors          200    200      0            0   ••••• 
200 Multi zone error rate         184    175      0         3267   •••••

A 4 hour Victoria scan (without remap or restore) concluded:
5:15:16 : ***** Scan results: Warnings - 205, errors - 294 *****
The problem is these sector-to-sector copy programs does usually chock on bad sectot
MHDD/Victoria would trigger HDD FW to remap bad sector internally, without reading by the program, actually the process has high chance to save a content of bad sector to new one.
I'm always recommend the three steps before start recovery of data ( would it be in IT or here for DVR's recordings).
If you'll see number of bad sectors dangerously increased after Scan+Remap, your chance to recover data is declining with each hour of powering the HDD.

As to your drive's status: parameter#5 (=0) give high chance of remapping. I would run Scan+Remap !
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post #18313 of 18329 Old 08-29-2014, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by P Smith View Post
Blind replacement of electrolytic capacitors wouldn't be bad, but could improve nothing if problem in different spot. Need do make real diagnostic first.
With my lack of tools and knowledge, what do I stand to lose vs. what I stand to gain? Cost wise, maybe less than $20?
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post #18314 of 18329 Old 08-29-2014, 12:26 PM
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With my lack of tools and knowledge, what do I stand to lose vs. what I stand to gain? Cost wise, maybe less than $20?
Just the small cash and time, but small chance you'll fix it.
Still a chance, so try and tell us.
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post #18315 of 18329 Old 08-29-2014, 12:32 PM
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Just the small cash and time, but small chance you'll fix it.
Still a chance, so try and tell us.
Will do.
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post #18316 of 18329 Old 08-29-2014, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clarkss12 View Post
I have had my PAL DVR since the beginning, pre-ordered. Actually, the second one, they replaced the first one a month after I received it. Anyway to the point. My box is starting to freeze and I have to pull the power every day or two. So, I know it is dying, and yes, more than likely bad caps.

My question, where did you get your capacitors and can I buy only one or two. I will replace the 4 that you suggested and prefer to have them in my hand before I open my box. I had a device that I replaced the caps last year and I was able to get the caps locally at Radio Shack, but that was sheer luck to find the correct caps that would work.

thanks for your help



See post # 18268 / on page 609 of the "official pal thread..
But, here again, Newark is the ticket-no minimum, good service.. here is the entire electrolytic capacitor lisiting with Newark part numbers.... P. Smith is right, you will be lucky if the caps do it, maybe the dreaded bad ball grid array soldering under the STi chip may be the issue....
Attached Files
File Type: txt PAL CAPS.txt (1.3 KB, 9 views)
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post #18317 of 18329 Old 08-29-2014, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by johnd393 View Post
The time zone was correct or 1 hour off. I can't remember if I changed it but it was not GMT.
To be clear, I didn't think you'd set your Pals to GMT; I don't even think GMT is an available option on the time zone setting! I meant they were acting as if they were set to GMT. That would explain why both the clock and the timers were 6 hours off.
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post #18318 of 18329 Old 08-29-2014, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by wiscojim View Post
This happens regularly with all of my PalDVRs when not used regularly. When first turned on, they don't pick up the PSIP schedules until you watch live TV and go through the channels so they tune in to each station and then download their data.
And there's no way to do all channels without powering this DVR on like its old former TV Guide?
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post #18319 of 18329 Old 08-29-2014, 08:10 PM
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Your Pals should be scanning all frequencies every few hours in the background, both to keep the EPG up-to-date and to discover and add any new channels. Both of mine do. If yours aren't doing that, all I can recommend is a factory defaults reset. There may be a remnant of the old TVGoS service stored in there somewhere that's still fouling things up even now, long after TVGoS is a distant memory.
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post #18320 of 18329 Old 08-29-2014, 08:13 PM
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Question

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Originally Posted by JHBrandt View Post
Your Pals should be scanning all frequencies every few hours in the background, both to keep the EPG up-to-date and to discover and add any new channels. Both of mine do. If yours aren't doing that, all I can recommend is a factory defaults reset. There may be a remnant of the old TVGoS service stored in there somewhere that's still fouling things up even now, long after TVGoS is a distant memory.
Hmm, I did the factory defaults reset when it couldn't find the new channels like KCBS2.2 several months ago. Guide doesn't always update for all channels. Maybe it is time based?
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post #18321 of 18329 Old 08-29-2014, 09:53 PM
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Hmm, I did the factory defaults reset when it couldn't find the new channels like KCBS2.2 several months ago. Guide doesn't always update for all channels. Maybe it is time based?
We don't know for sure the schedule, but based on snooping tuner's I2C I can tell you second tuner (if not busy) constantly changing frequency. Perhaps both of your tuners occupied or second tuner malfunctioning.
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post #18322 of 18329 Old 08-29-2014, 11:37 PM
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Originally Posted by johnd393 View Post
We've been watching Dish for a couple weeks and didn't look at my 2 DtvPal's for a while. I now find both DtvPals have lost all guide data. Every channel has "No information Available". We had a couple short power interuptions recently. I found the time 6 hours off on both boxes. All the timers , about 3 each box, had changed from prime time shows 7,8,or 9 pm to like 2 or 3am. I deleted some unwanted recordings' but I don't recall any 2,or 3am stuff. I did a soft reset on one but I think it did both, even though they are set to different remote addresses. After the soft reset the clocks were still 6 hours off. The minutes were close. I deleted the timers, reset the clocks. A full day has passed and still no guide information. We are in the Chicago reception area and had guide info from most channels before. Any thoughts?
Guide info has filled in for a few channels on one Pal. Still nothing on the other. The thing where the guide data fills in after a channel is selected, is not happening. I rescanned channels on one. No change.
I did factory reset of the Pal that had remote address 1. Guide data has returned
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Guide info has filled in for a few channels on one Pal. Still nothing on the other. The thing where the guide data fills in after a channel is selected, is not happening. I rescanned channels on one. No change.
I did factory reset of the Pal that had remote address 1. Guide data has returned
I would guess it was memory or system tables corruption. Bugs.
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post #18324 of 18329 Old 08-30-2014, 09:39 AM
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Update on my failing EARS saga... something like 9 hours of Victoria remap (MHDD didn't detect drive, so I just did Victoria).

Still 0 reallocated sector count in #5 , but it did a ton of remaps (over 11k considering the errors it was finding) during the scan. I guess I'll try the raw copy again now.


EARS BEFORE Victoria Remap:
Code:
WDC WD10EARS-00Y5B1   WD-WCAV56034633
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
  ID      Name                   Value  Worst  Tresh       Raw    Health
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
  1 Raw read error rate           200    199     51        67261   ••••• 
  3 Spin-up time                  132    131     21         6366   ••••• 
  4 Number of spin-up times       100    100      0           42   ••••• 
  5 Reallocated sector count      200    200    140            0   ••••• 
  7 Seek error rate               200    200      0            0   ••••• 
  9 Power-on time                  53     53      0        34382   ••    
 10 Spin-up retries               100    253      0            0   ••••• 
 11 Recalibration retries         100    253      0            0   ••••• 
 12 Start/stop count              100    100      0           39   ••••• 
192 Power-off retract count       200    200      0           36   ••••• 
193 Load/unload cycle count       198    198      0         7450   ••••• 
194 HDA Temperature               114    107      0    33°C/91°F   ••••  
196 Reallocated event count       200    200      0            0   ••••• 
197 Current pending sectors       192    192      0         1460   ••••• 
198 Offline scan UNC sectors      195    192      0          815   ••••• 
199 Ultra DMA CRC errors          200    200      0            0   ••••• 
200 Multi zone error rate         184    175      0         3267   •••••
EARS AFTER Victoria Remap:
Code:
WDC WD10EARS-00Y5B1   WD-WCAV56034633
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
  ID      Name                   Value  Worst  Tresh       Raw    Health
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
  1 Raw read error rate           199    199     51        91001   ••••• 
  3 Spin-up time                  132    131     21         6366   ••••• 
  4 Number of spin-up times       100    100      0           42   ••••• 
  5 Reallocated sector count      200    200    140            0   ••••• 
  7 Seek error rate               200    200      0            0   ••••• 
  9 Power-on time                  53     53      0        34397   ••    
 10 Spin-up retries               100    253      0            0   ••••• 
 11 Recalibration retries         100    253      0            0   ••••• 
 12 Start/stop count              100    100      0           39   ••••• 
192 Power-off retract count       200    200      0           36   ••••• 
193 Load/unload cycle count       198    198      0         7453   ••••• 
194 HDA Temperature               117    107      0    30°C/86°F   ••••  
196 Reallocated event count       200    200      0            0   ••••• 
197 Current pending sectors       195    192      0          825   ••••• 
198 Offline scan UNC sectors      200    192      0          125   ••••• 
199 Ultra DMA CRC errors          200    200      0            0   ••••• 
200 Multi zone error rate         198    175      0          527   •••••



Scan had a lot of things like
Code:
4:47:41  : LBA 1827434978 try REMAP... complete
4:47:41  : LBA 1827434979 try REMAP... complete
4:47:41  : LBA 1827434980 try REMAP... complete
4:47:42  : LBA 1827434981 try REMAP... complete
4:47:42  : LBA 1827434982 try REMAP... complete
4:47:43  : LBA 1827434983 try REMAP... complete
4:47:57  : LBA 1827435032 try REMAP... complete
4:47:59  : Block 1827435033 Error: UNCR
4:48:10  : Warning! Block start at 1827435289 = 1123 ms
4:48:12  : Warning! Block start at 1827435545 = 2590 ms

and ended with:
Code:
5:40:35  : ***** Scan results: Warnings - 841, errors - 11805 *****
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post #18325 of 18329 Old 08-30-2014, 10:48 AM
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Interesting case (we are going off-topic, so I would be short):
- I'm highly recommend use MHDD for tests, Victoria is good program, but Windows does running too many processes simultaneously, while precise timing require for test HDD; MHDD under DOS do this most correctly
- the number of errors could be attributed by the conditions.

Find a PC where is MHDD recognize SATA controller(s) and allow to run tests on your HDD. It could be old motherboard, unfortunately support of MHDD ended a few years ago...
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Last edited by P Smith; 08-30-2014 at 10:52 AM.
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post #18326 of 18329 Old Yesterday, 03:28 PM
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I know its hard to believe(snickers) but Im having trouble with my PAL. I've sped-read thru the 1st 450 pages but didnt see my issue. My PAL will power up and work for viewing but cant access the guide or recordings. I had been doing a hard reset (unplugging from the wall for a few minutes) which would solve the issue for a while.I learned of the soft reset (holding the power button) and that also resolves the issue for a while. I have also done a factory reset. Im leaning toward it being a HDD issue but to me it doesnt make sense that it would affect the guide. I dont remember if I can get to menus either when this happens? BTW Im on version F208. Any thoughts?

My best friend is my PAL
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post #18327 of 18329 Old Yesterday, 03:45 PM
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If you press Menu does #4 DVR appear grayed out?

That's what happened to one of mine when the HDD got corrupted. No DVR functions. I gave up that night, unplugged it from the wall for 12 hours or so, plugged back in and it's been working since, (several months now) except that one will occasionally lock up when a recording ends that I am watching delayed. Pressing "View Live TV" on the remote usually brings it back to life btw.
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post #18328 of 18329 Old Yesterday, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ed_in_tx View Post
If you press Menu does #4 DVR appear grayed out?

That's what happened to one of mine when the HDD got corrupted. No DVR functions. I gave up that night, unplugged it from the wall for 12 hours or so, plugged back in and it's been working since, (several months now) except that one will occasionally lock up when a recording ends that I am watching delayed. Pressing "View Live TV" on the remote usually brings it back to life btw.
The next time it acts up I will be more thorough to see what I can and cant access menu-wise. After a reboot it works fine, my recordings are there and timers still work.

My best friend is my PAL
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post #18329 of 18329 Old Yesterday, 09:37 PM
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General advice :if you suspect HDD is the culprit, take it out,run MHDD (SMART, Scan with Remap, second SMART ) and post all logs here for expert's analysis.
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