The Official AVS Dish DTVPal DVR Topic! - Page 624 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #18691 of 18714 Old 03-16-2015, 11:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kelljohn View Post
... I failed to note which way the fan faced before I removed it. Does it blow in or out.
Look at an arrow embedded to the case near the fan - it made for inexperienced ppl.
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post #18692 of 18714 Old 03-17-2015, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P Smith View Post
Look at an arrow embedded to the case near the fan - it made for inexperienced ppl.
I believe the problem he had was that the fan will often fall free when you open the case. If it does you won't know which direction the arrow is supposed to go when replaced. It is my understanding you need to have the arrow pointed inward. It is probably not important if you happen to move your HDD to an outside location.
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post #18693 of 18714 Old 03-17-2015, 11:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P Smith View Post
Look at an arrow embedded to the case near the fan - it made for inexperienced ppl.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmn1 View Post
I believe the problem he had was that the fan will often fall free when you open the case. If it does you won't know which direction the arrow is supposed to go when replaced. It is my understanding you need to have the arrow pointed inward. It is probably not important if you happen to move your HDD to an outside location.
That's exactly why P Smith said exactly what he did. The arrow is embedded in the case, and it clearly points for the airflow to go in towards the center of the machine.

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post #18694 of 18714 Old 03-18-2015, 01:04 AM
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And if you still asking - on a case of the fan you'll find TWO arrows, one show air flow when other a rotation. Duh !
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post #18695 of 18714 Old 03-20-2015, 09:55 AM
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First time this has happened:

Using my Pal DVR (set to remote code 01) and Dish 722 receiver (set to remote code 08), been that way co-existing for years. Today the Pal DVR decided to change its remote address code to 08 the same as the Dish receiver. Noticed when the Pal suddenly quit responding to its normal remote commands. Had to use the Dish remote to access the setup mode to put the Pal back on 01, then set the Dish remote back to 08. (And put a piece of black tape over the Dish 722 remote control sensor so it wouldn't get confused with all the button pushing.) All OK now.

Last edited by ed_in_tx; 03-20-2015 at 10:00 AM.
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post #18696 of 18714 Old 03-20-2015, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ed_in_tx View Post
First time this has happened:

Using my Pal DVR (set to remote code 01) and Dish 722 receiver (set to remote code 08), ... Today the Pal DVR decided to change its remote address code to 08 the same as the Dish receiver.
Any chance you pressed, "SYS INFO" ?

I don't know about the Dish 722 receiver but back when I had two pals in the same room, if I accidentally pressed "SYS INFO" my pals remote codes were synched / the same. Like you, I had to then cover one pal's IR rcvr to change the remote code of the other pal.
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post #18697 of 18714 Old 03-20-2015, 12:10 PM
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Doesn't Matter

Quote:
Originally Posted by P Smith View Post
Look at an arrow embedded to the case near the fan - it made for inexperienced ppl.
Whether you blow air in or out. In fact when I opened the case of my 2 PALDVRS from the factory, one was blowing out and the other blowing in. The way the case is vented it should not matter one bit. Ditto with computer cases. There are some fans in PCs that will blow air out and some suck air in. What is truly important in this case is the fans are clean and working. Also important is to clean all dust from inside.
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post #18698 of 18714 Old 03-20-2015, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by happy2Lurk View Post
Any chance you pressed, "SYS INFO" ?
Thanks I guess it's possible but I sure didn't do it on purpose. I'll be aware now that they can sync remote addresses like that.
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post #18699 of 18714 Old 03-20-2015, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by LenL View Post
Whether you blow air in or out. In fact when I opened the case of my 2 PALDVRS from the factory, one was blowing out and the other blowing in. The way the case is vented it should not matter one bit..
I prefer the fan blowing IN the way indicated since it directs the cooler ambient air over the HDD first.
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post #18700 of 18714 Old 03-20-2015, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by ed_in_tx View Post
I prefer the fan blowing IN the way indicated since it directs the cooler ambient air over the HDD first.
True but then the air is heated and then passes warm air over the capacitors. If you suck air in, the cool air is going over the capacitors from the other side which are more critical to keeping PALDVR components cool and so either way their are advantages.

I think what is important is to remove the warm air and bring in cooler outside air into the case. Either way accomplishes this. Perhaps we have so many PALDVRS dying with faulty bulging capacitors is due to heat and because the fan is not sucking air over them first? P Smith can give his expertise on this. I do know he repaired one of mine where air was blowing in and the other where the air was sucking out has not failed.
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post #18701 of 18714 Old 03-20-2015, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ed_in_tx View Post
First time this has happened:

Using my Pal DVR (set to remote code 01) and Dish 722 receiver (set to remote code 08), been that way co-existing for years. Today the Pal DVR decided to change its remote address code to 08 the same as the Dish receiver. Noticed when the Pal suddenly quit responding to its normal remote commands. Had to use the Dish remote to access the setup mode to put the Pal back on 01, then set the Dish remote back to 08. (And put a piece of black tape over the Dish 722 remote control sensor so it wouldn't get confused with all the button pushing.) All OK now.
I have my VIP 722 remotes AUX button programed to control my 2 PALS, you do have to cover or unplug one since they operate together.

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post #18702 of 18714 Old 03-20-2015, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LenL View Post
True but then the air is heated and then passes warm air over the capacitors....


Let's see... I have 80°F ambient air going in and 94°F air exiting from my 'Pal, been on all day, the caps are rated to 105°C, and the original C34 that failed lasted about 6 years, well beyond its hours rating as per Nichicon. So, I think I'll run is as they designed it to be, to cool the HDD first.
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post #18703 of 18714 Old 03-20-2015, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LenL View Post
True but then the air is heated and then passes warm air over the capacitors. If you suck air in, the cool air is going over the capacitors from the other side which are more critical to keeping PALDVR components cool and so either way their are advantages.

I think what is important is to remove the warm air and bring in cooler outside air into the case. Either way accomplishes this. Perhaps we have so many PALDVRS dying with faulty bulging capacitors is due to heat and because the fan is not sucking air over them first? P Smith can give his expertise on this. I do know he repaired one of mine where air was blowing in and the other where the air was sucking out has not failed.
When I took my 2 Pals apart to clean them, I had the same delema but then noticed that the top part of the fans cushion had grooves in it from the cover and they were different depths, so i put them in to match the covers grooves. The label on the fan blade faces inwards and the fans suck air in, blowing the outside cooler air over the HD first. PS changeing the capacitors tomorrow. C34 and C 242 are bulging and also replacing C 237 under the shield cover while I have it open. I have not had problems yet.

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post #18704 of 18714 Old 03-20-2015, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by happy2Lurk
Any chance you pressed, "SYS INFO" ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ed_in_tx View Post
Thanks I guess it's possible but I sure didn't do it on purpose. I'll be aware now that they can sync remote addresses like that.
When it happened to me, I was going for the record-button but hit "SYS INFO" by mistake. If I remember right, you can avoid the synching by clicking CANCEL rather than SELECT to get out of the sys info screen. Haven't used my pal for a while, I've gone to wmc & kodi.
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post #18705 of 18714 Old 03-20-2015, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by happy2Lurk View Post
Originally Posted by happy2Lurk
Any chance you pressed, "SYS INFO" ?



When it happened to me, I was going for the record-button but hit "SYS INFO" by mistake. If I remember right, you can avoid the synching by clicking CANCEL rather than SELECT to get out of the sys info screen. Haven't used my pal for a while, I've gone to wmc & kodi.
Ah I bet it happened when I was selecting "PIP" mode on the Dish 722, that button also operates the SYS INFO function of the Pal DVR. Still not sure how that changed the address code.
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post #18706 of 18714 Old 03-20-2015, 11:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LenL View Post
True but then the air is heated and then passes warm air over the capacitors. If you suck air in, the cool air is going over the capacitors from the other side which are more critical to keeping PALDVR components cool and so either way their are advantages.

I think what is important is to remove the warm air and bring in cooler outside air into the case. Either way accomplishes this. Perhaps we have so many PALDVRS dying with faulty bulging capacitors is due to heat and because the fan is not sucking air over them first? P Smith can give his expertise on this. I do know he repaired one of mine where air was blowing in and the other where the air was sucking out has not failed.
I wouldn't go into aerodynamics and thermo-convection etc here, but the fun _must_ be installed as designed. Otherwise is not efficient and doesn't work as you try do describe above.
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post #18707 of 18714 Old 03-21-2015, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by happy2Lurk View Post
Any chance you pressed, "SYS INFO" ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ed_in_tx View Post
Thanks I guess it's possible but I sure didn't do it on purpose. I'll be aware now that they can sync remote addresses like that.
In my case, the Sys Info key (which may be labeled differently on some Dish remotes) will pull up the Sys Info screen on the Pal, even if pressed on a remote with a different address. That alone won't change my Pal's remote address, but if I then press the Record key, it will change the Pal's address, syncing it with the receiver as you experienced.

In my case (an old Dish 311K receiver), the cure is somewhat simpler: switch the remote to the Pal and press Sys Info and Record again to switch the Pal's remote address back. Luckily, this doesn't confuse the Dish receiver because it happens to need a different key sequence to bring up the Sys Info screen.
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post #18708 of 18714 Old 03-21-2015, 03:49 PM
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So if you bring up SYS INFO and press the Record button that will reset the remote code?
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post #18709 of 18714 Old 03-21-2015, 04:27 PM
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I have two DTVPAL DVRs and one was freezing from time to time. I got to be that I could only go to the dvr menu, then the list and it would freeze up. I had to disconnect it to exit the freeze. First fix I tried was to reformat the drive. It reported no errors or bad sectors. I talked to a tech at work and mentioned the capacitors that can bulge. He suggested to check the fan first because the symptoms pointed to overheating in his opinion. Sometimes aging fans slow down and move less air from what he explained. My unit was inside a tv stand with an opened front and back.

I opened the case, checked for bulging capacitors and all looked like new without any bulging. I let it run with an open case for a while and all worked fine. I confirmed the fan was indeed working.

I removed the fan. On the fan there is a silver sticker. I removed it. It uncovered a plastic cap in the center of the motor compartment. There was some oil in there but not much. I added three drops of clear sewing machine oil. Rotated the motor by hand and noticed it appeared to move more freely. I put the cap back and re-stuck the silver sticker in the center. I then cleaned the incrusted dust off the fan blades using a dry Q-tip. (BTW, the fan was blowing inwards before I removed it)

On the case itself, I added two small section of holes where there were only fakes holes to improve hot air exit. I figured if this adversely effected air flow, I could always revert back by closing the holes from the inside of the case without modifying the esthetics of the unit.

So far I'm testing it by recording two shows simultaneously and viewing another recorded show all in HDTV. The unit is out of on top of my tv stand. With my hand, I can not feel any hot spots on the unit so far. If all is well, I'll move it back inside the tv stand in a few days.
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Last edited by velix; 03-21-2015 at 04:36 PM.
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post #18710 of 18714 Old 03-21-2015, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ed_in_tx View Post
So if you bring up SYS INFO and press the Record button that will reset the remote code?
Yes. Once the Sys Info screen (showing the remote address) is up, Record tells any Dish device, including our Pal DVRs (even the CM-branded ones), to use the remote control's current address. That's why it's the last step in reprogramming your remote. (The only exception I know of is the DTVPal converter box, which is hard-coded to address 01 since its remote couldn't be reprogrammed.)

The Sys Info button (or PIP on the 20.1 remotes) seems to be unique in that a Pal DVR will respond no matter what code the remote is set to. That seems to be a safety feature in case you accidentally get your remote out of sync with your Pal; otherwise there'd be no way to pull up Sys Info to fix the problem. But if you have a second Dish device, like a satellite receiver, that means you can pull up the Sys Info screen on the Pal by pushing that button while your remote is set to the other device. And if your TV is off or set to another input, you won't even see the Sys Info screen come up! (You may notice the Pal's green LED turn on, but that's it.) I've done that myself a few times.
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post #18711 of 18714 Old 03-21-2015, 07:29 PM
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Yep I can see it all now.. I was watching CNBC and Fox Business FBN on split screen on the Dish 722, the Pal DVR sits on top, I pressed PIP to take the 722 out of split screen and pressed the Rec button to record a segment on FBN. Unbeknownst to me at the time I was changing the code on the Pal from 01 to 08! Went back to the Pal later and no response. Felt a sudden sinking feeling!

So I've learned you don't have to go through all the initial extra steps in Post #1 to simply change the Pal code. I went in to my other Pal in the bedroom, verified what code it was on and the remote was working properly, then went through the whole remote programming and syncing to the DVR. Only took me about an hour to figure it out.
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post #18712 of 18714 Old 03-21-2015, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by velix View Post
I have two DTVPAL DVRs and one was freezing from time to time. I got to be that I could only go to the dvr menu, then the list and it would freeze up. I had to disconnect it to exit the freeze. First fix I tried was to reformat the drive. It reported no errors or bad sectors. I talked to a tech at work and mentioned the capacitors that can bulge. He suggested to check the fan first because the symptoms pointed to overheating in his opinion. Sometimes aging fans slow down and move less air from what he explained....

I removed the fan. On the fan there is a silver sticker. I removed it. It uncovered a plastic cap in the center of the motor compartment. There was some oil in there but not much. I added three drops of clear sewing machine oil. Rotated the motor by hand and noticed it appeared to move more freely. I put the cap back and re-stuck the silver sticker in the center. I then cleaned the encrusted dust off the fan blades using a dry Q-tip....

So far I'm testing it by recording two shows simultaneously and viewing another recorded show all in HDTV. The unit is out of on top of my tv stand. With my hand, I can not feel any hot spots on the unit so far. If all is well, I'll move it back inside the tv stand in a few days.
Thanks for the reminder. With all the attention we've been paying to bulging capacitors, we may have forgotten that one reason a capacitor may fail prematurely is heat.

A good preventive maintenance practice is periodic cleaning to remove built-up dust from both the fan blades and the Pal's interior. Unfortunately the Pal's designers made this simple step much harder than it needed to be with their Rubik's Cube method of getting the @#^& case off!

A few of us have even gone so far as removing the HDDs from our Pals and placing them in external enclosures attached with a SATA cable. That removes the HDD's heat, and may improve airflow. A similar, but less drastic, step would be to replace the 3.5" HDD with a smaller, cooler 2.5" HDD and a 2.5-3.5 adapter. Just make sure to mount it so the electronics don't touch any metal, and try to use an HDD meant for 24/7 use since the Pal never powers its HDD down.
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post #18713 of 18714 Old 03-22-2015, 12:01 AM
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I opened my second DVR. Bad news, it freezes frequently and there are two bulging capacitors in that one. It's more prone to freezing than the first. These will need to be replaced.

I did have the first I just cleaned and modified freeze after several hours of playback. Still it is better than before. I noticed when it did the heat comes mostly from the beige right board where the power converter is. The coaxial cable of the antenna was warm to the touch. Heat could be felt to the underside of the case. I'm contemplating adding a second fan to evacuate more heat out from the top. I would power it by the rear USB connector. Since there will never be a BIOS upgrade it will never be used again. I haven't figured out yet which will be the best option. Normally I wouldn't try to modify the designed airflow, But from the number of failures of these units I thinks it's evident the conception of the cooling is deficient.

In any case, the warranty is finished. No harm can come from trying to improve the cooling of this DVR by modding it.
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post #18714 of 18714 Old Today, 09:56 PM
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I just had my second DTVPAL DVR repaired. The two bulging capacitors have been replaced. I just put it back together. The machine appears to be stable now. I left the top of the case off for testing. Before it didn't last more than five minutes before freezing up.

I did try adding a second small 12V computer fan to improve cooling. To power it I spliced the main 12V lines to connect the added fan. This was a mistake. The second fan never stops and prevents the first one from starting. I imagine it cools the sensor just enough to prevent it from starting the original fan. It is also very loud compared to the original fan. I've removed the added fan for now. If I do try it again, I'll probably connect the two fans together on the same connector. This way both should function and stop together.

I will try to increase the number of holes in the top of the case. It seems to have benefited my first DVR that had normal capacitors. It has not frozen since I added two small sections of holes. Is it because of this or the lubrication of the fan motor I did? I don't know for sure.



BTW: Is it possible to turn off descriptive video on the DTVPAL DVR?

I've tried the SAP button but nothing happens. On the same TV, with HDMI connections, DV is off with a Channel Master DVR+, but on with the DTVPAL DVR.

Last edited by velix; Today at 10:11 PM. Reason: added descriptive video comment
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