The Official AVS Dish DTVPal DVR Topic! - Page 647 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #19381 of 19437 Old 04-21-2017, 09:56 PM
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end of life

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Originally Posted by ed_in_tx View Post
Did you find a source for those tuner ICs, Microtune MT2131? I looked once a couple years ago and they were obsolete parts.
BCD Microelectronics in UK online - in stock - strip of 10 - £190. Little pricey even if you could order singles but that's the only place I found. Probably time for me to move on to something not 9 years old. It was a good ship.
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post #19382 of 19437 Old 04-22-2017, 12:10 AM
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Originally Posted by ed_in_tx View Post
Did you find a source for those tuner ICs, Microtune MT2131? I looked once a couple years ago and they were obsolete parts.
bought from China a few years ago ...
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post #19383 of 19437 Old 04-22-2017, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by stephenp82 View Post
BCD Microelectronics in UK online - in stock - strip of 10 - £190. Little pricey even if you could order singles but that's the only place I found. Probably time for me to move on to something not 9 years old. It was a good ship.
That is unfortunate. Scalpers at 25 bucks a chip and no absolute guarantee that would fix it. Probably need to replace both if one failed. I think better off finding a good working 'Pal and retire the old one to the non-working parts-only ebay sales.
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post #19384 of 19437 Old 05-04-2017, 04:39 PM
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Well, I'm glad, and yet sad, that you got the Emerson up and working. You see, I have 27" & 36" Sony CRT TVs that I'd love to give to a good (or bad) home....

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post #19385 of 19437 Old 05-04-2017, 04:42 PM
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BTW, I swapped the coax feeds between the Sharp TV and the DVR+, and now the DVR+ has great reception - better than the Pal. So it was a bad coax, or more likely, the splitter embedded somewhere in the RV walls is "not so good."
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post #19386 of 19437 Old 05-06-2017, 09:09 AM
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Boy have I got a problem, hope some one can help me out. I have have had both my PALs almost since the day they came out. The one is my my spare and hasn't been pluged in for a year but has the same problem. I did replace the caps in my primary.

I all started when the time changed to daylight, according to the PAL, in April. All worked OK in the real DST change in March. In all these years I have never had a problem that a factory reboot and redoing my recorded programs didn't fix.

I am in El Paso Texas but in the mountain time zone. We get central time zone programing. I set everything after the factory reboot, Mountain, no zip code and with zip code, TV Guide disabled. 2 soft rooboots to sinc. All the programming didn't line up. I set it to central everything lined up but everything started recording early. I even did a manual time, reorded early. set record time 1 hour early still didn't record on time. did manual time set, nothing. even did diferent time zones. I have done so many combinations over the last month my head is spinning.

After the first couple of failures I plugged the othe PAL in and did the same procedurs and the same results. Both my pals can't have mysteriously developed the same problem especially since one was not even plugged in for almost a year.

HELP! any questions needed I will try to remember any help I will try.

Thanks in advance.

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post #19387 of 19437 Old 05-06-2017, 09:24 AM
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time to research list of stations and how they send timing data - read back in the thread how-to
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post #19388 of 19437 Old 05-06-2017, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P Smith View Post
time to research list of stations and how they send timing data - read back in the thread how-to
Let me ask this, why if I manually set in a record time why does it not record at that time irregardless of what the program is?

And why whould the satations change what ever you are asking me to do? I have no idea what you are talking about, so why not help me and tell me what post it is, there are 675 pages of posts here.

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post #19389 of 19437 Old 05-06-2017, 12:37 PM
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Take a look at post 18632.

Then go into diagnostics and check the data for all stations.
TIME: fairly accurate (GMT)
SAVE: +3600,
NEXT: has a year date of 2068 and (+0) on the end

If you record a program by name off the grid do you get the correct program?
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post #19390 of 19437 Old 05-06-2017, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete-N2 View Post
Take a look at post 18632.

Then go into diagnostics and check the data for all stations.
TIME: fairly accurate (GMT)
SAVE: +3600,
NEXT: has a year date of 2068 and (+0) on the end

If you record a program by name off the grid do you get the correct program?
thanks pete, let me answer your question and I will ge the diagnostic stuff later. I am close to the mexican border and get a lot of mexican station and some local non network stations so it will take a bit of work.

The only way I get the times and programs lined up is if I use central time (3-2-1-3) and set my local time manually. I do not get the correct program recorded if I click on the name. I do not get the correct program or time if I manually create a record time and length (menu - 6). Both ways they seem to record an hour early. If I use mountain time the grid does not line up and again doesn't record even if I use manual timer, it does not record at that time.

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post #19391 of 19437 Old 05-06-2017, 02:55 PM
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The stations (are supposed to) transmit the time and schedules in GMT. You tell the DTVPal your time zone. Finally the DTVPal tries to determine if DST is in use based on evaluating all the stations data. In your location that maybe impossible to do.

How large is the error if the time is set automatically?

If you are setting manual recordings can you just set it to record an hour later?

My initial approach would be to NOT try to get the grid to agree with local time just so long as I could pick a program from the grid and get the correct one recorded.

How about a directional antenna pointed north and an attenuator?
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post #19392 of 19437 Old 05-06-2017, 06:27 PM
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Believe it or not, the time zone you enter has no net effect on recordings scheduled from the guide. This is because changing the time zone will change both the displayed clock time and the guide times by the same amount. Remember, every time the stations transmit, both clock time and schedule times, is GMT; the Pal just converts all times for display according to the time zone and whether it thinks DST is in effect.

There's no way to display the guide's times in a different time zone than the current time. If you set the Pal to Central, everything will be in Central and you'll have to "think in Central" when using it.

Quote:
I all started when the time changed to daylight, according to the PAL, in April. All worked OK in the real DST change in March.
This may be a clue. The Pal isn't preprogrammed to go to DST in April; it gets the DST change date from the stations.

But as it happens, most of Mexico starts DST in April, although border towns like Ciudad Juárez supposedly observe the US DST schedule to avoid problems like this. However, it's possible some Mexican stations nevertheless switched in April, confusing your Pal. That diagnostics data would be interesting to see.

I remember some years ago you had trouble with your Mexican stations sending out inaccurate times. That also threw your Pal off, but by only a few minutes. IIRC, you fixed it by intentionally reducing your antenna's gain to the point you could still receive your US stations but not the Mexican ones. Then a channel rescan seemed to fix things.

I don't know if that's still an option however. If not, you may just have to set your clock manually, adjusting it every few days to compensate for drift.
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post #19393 of 19437 Old 05-07-2017, 11:20 AM
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Hi JH, Hard to believe I have had my #1 Pal since Dec 2008 and #2 Pal since april 2010 from Sears when they sold them out. What a bargin they were. Yep I'm the guy you helped with the lower the signal solution. Ciudad Juárez changes times the same as the US. Then I had an outside antenna then I moved to the crawl space. Long story short I am now using a old pickup element, just a T portion about 4 inches on each side of the coax, from an old German antenna I had when I was in the Army over there. This little sucker still picks up the stations like the big one, and i have a 4 way splitter on it.

I'm 74 years old now so low crawling in the floored craw space is a mind over mater and has to be done early in the mornng since it's way tohot here now to go up after 10am. I spent 2 hours getting the diagnostics data in a chart. I'll post it here, probably Tuesday, got doctors apointments monday. I think you or Pete gave me the ident #'s and the stations they were for.

after I was done I was going to check what Pete asked on Pal2. they are both in the same cabinete so I have to cover the IR. I did a factory reset and set it to Mountain and then FR to central ( by the way we get central time programing here) I wanted to check something when set to mountain so did a FR back to mountain again and the time was correct, about 1 minute off, on that page, had not been before. Could not believe my eyes when I finished and looked at the guide , it was correct also. I hit a program an hour out, and it recorded. I have 60 minutes set for tonight and a show at 11am tommorow. we'll see if it holds together

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post #19394 of 19437 Old 05-07-2017, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete-N2 View Post
The stations (are supposed to) transmit the time and schedules in GMT. You tell the DTVPal your time zone. Finally the DTVPal tries to determine if DST is in use based on evaluating all the stations data. In your location that maybe impossible to do.

How large is the error if the time is set automatically?

If you are setting manual recordings can you just set it to record an hour later?

My initial approach would be to NOT try to get the grid to agree with local time just so long as I could pick a program from the grid and get the correct one recorded.

How about a directional antenna pointed north and an attenuator?
If I do a factory reset with mountain zone it is 1hour and 20 seconds behind, if i do central it is 20 seconds behind.

setting the clock time manually and then setting a recording manally 1 hr early or 1 hr late, either started an hour earlly or 10 minutes late, can't remember. When all this started I wasn't thinking I would have to keep a sientific journal. I just thought the next thing i tried would fix it.

JH Brant has also, read our post above, been helping. Got 2 of the brightest minds in the PAL buisness left working on on this. lol

After a while my thought was just to find way to get recordings done and figure out what name they would be later.


Last edited by FRANK43; 05-07-2017 at 11:41 AM.
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post #19395 of 19437 Old 05-07-2017, 02:30 PM
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Spoke too soon. Just went in and turned the PAL on and the the time was back an hour ie it is now 3:30 pm and the clock says 2:30 and the schedule was back an hour also. ie 60 minutes whichis on at 6pm was now in the schedule at 5pm.

only turned it off. wait for opinion. should I do a double soft reboot ( are you supposed to turn it off right after 2x reboot?) or do a manual clock set.


Last edited by FRANK43; 05-07-2017 at 02:52 PM.
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post #19396 of 19437 Old 05-07-2017, 03:29 PM
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Leave it alone and see if it records 60 minutes. (Is 60 minutes identified for recording?) If it does does consider ignoring the displayed time and choosing your programs from the grid.

Is CBS CDT or MDT?
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post #19397 of 19437 Old 05-07-2017, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FRANK43 View Post
after I was done I was going to check what Pete asked on Pal2. they are both in the same cabinet so I have to cover the IR. I did a factory reset and set it to Mountain and then FR to central ( by the way we get central time programing here) I wanted to check something when set to mountain so did a FR back to mountain again and the time was correct, about 1 minute off, on that page, had not been before. Could not believe my eyes when I finished and looked at the guide , it was correct also. I hit a program an hour out, and it recorded. I have 60 minutes set for tonight and a show at 11am tomorrow. we'll see if it holds together
Glad to hear it straightened back out! I was thinking it might, now that we're well past even the bogus April DST transition, but knowing how painful a factory reset can be, I didn't want to suggest it until I knew more.

BTW, you can set each Pal to its own address, so you can control them separately without having to cover the IR receiver on one. Little-known fact: you can even program a single Pal remote to control two different Pals! (You use the Pal button for one Pal and the Aux button for the other one.) Here's the procedure (I'm doing this from memory but I'm pretty sure it's correct):

  1. The Pal button on your remote(s) and both Pals are probably set to address 01 now. (That's the default.) To set a remote to a different address, press and hold the Pal (or Aux) button until it goes into programming mode.
  2. To reprogram the Pal button, enter a new 2-digit address from 01 to 16, followed by the pound sign.
  3. To reprogram the Aux button, enter a "3" followed by the 2-digit address (01 to 16) and the pound sign.
  4. You can leave one remote on address 01 if you wish, but change the other remote (or the Aux button on the same remote) to another address. Let's say you used address 02.
  5. Now you have to change one Pal to match the new remote code. Temporarily cover the IR on the Pal you don't want to change (this is the last time you'll have to do this).
  6. Point the remote you programmed to address 02 to the Pal you want it to control, and press Sys Info. The Pal will always respond to this key even if the remote address doesn't match. It will bring up the System Info screen with its current remote address (probably still 01).
  7. Finally, press Record. The remote address on the screen should change to 02.

You can now control each Pal separately, without having to bother with covering the IR window.
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post #19398 of 19437 Old 05-07-2017, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete-N2 View Post
Is CBS CDT or MDT?
Don't overthink this. Even though there are four time zones in the continental US, plus two more for Alaska and Hawaii, most networks, including CBS, only have two schedules, usually called East and West. IIRC they are offset by three hours.

I'm pretty sure the El Paso stations all use the East schedule since much of their viewing area is in the Central time zone. So 60 Minutes should appear in the schedule at 7PM if you set the Pal to Eastern time, 6PM if you set the Pal to Central time, and 5PM if you set it to Mountain time.

Stations further west would probably use the West feed, so 60 Minutes would appear in the schedule at 8PM if you set the Pal to Mountain time, 7PM if you set it to Pacific time, and 6PM if you set it to Alaska time.

Arizona and Hawaii are special cases since they don't go on DST, but that's not relevant to the El Paso situation.
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post #19399 of 19437 Old 05-08-2017, 05:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JHBrandt View Post
Stations further west would probably use the West feed, so 60 Minutes would appear in the schedule at 8PM if you set the Pal to Mountain time, 7PM if you set it to Pacific time, and 6PM if you set it to Alaska time.
Two feeds sounds logical but according to Titan TV, Denver shows 60 Minutes at 6 PM local and prime time seems to mirror the Central Zone (7-10 PM local). That wouldn't work for LA (6-9 local).
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post #19400 of 19437 Old 05-08-2017, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete-N2 View Post
Two feeds sounds logical but according to Titan TV, Denver shows 60 Minutes at 6 PM local and prime time seems to mirror the Central Zone (7-10 PM local). That wouldn't work for LA (6-9 local).
A quick reply before I have to go to Doctors.

In El Paso Texas we get the central feed. 60 minutes is on at 6pm and all prime time shows start at 7pm last program is at 9pm. Local news is on at 10pm. Shows are even adverised, for example: 10pm eastern, 9pm central. I also have Dish Satelite with one of my antenna splits going to it. All times and program grid are correct.

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post #19401 of 19437 Old 05-09-2017, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JHBrandt View Post
That diagnostics data would be interesting to see.
All "NEXT" info is the same for all. 03:14:00 9/01/2068 (+0)
All stations after "ident" have =0X 4404
The minutes are probably off because of the time it took to write info down. Info was taken when time zone was set to "standard"

PSIP (5), STATE 0X4404, EL:16

2821 cbs 14:10:00 07/05/2017 (+17) +3600
2823 abc " (+16) +3600
2825 nbc " (+19) +3600
2827 pbs " (+21) +3600
2829 fox " (+17) +3600
30028 ? 13:35:00 7/05/2017 (-3681) +3600
2835 ? 14:01:00 11/07/2061 (+1394150272) +0
2831 ? 14:01:00 11/07/2061 (+1394150273) +0
30001 ? 15:11:00 07/05/2017 (+2852) +0
10291 ? 14:25:00 " (+17) +17)
10007 ? 22:12:00 " (+27975) +0
10013 ? 22:12:00 " (+27975) +0
20502 ? 14:29:00 " (+10) +3600
20504 ? 14:29:00 " (+18) +0
20501 ? 14:30:00 " (-134) +3600
1 ? 14:34:00 " (+0) +0

zone: +0
save:+0 (enabled)
time: 14:40:00 sun 07/05/2017
secs: 547483255
next:03:14:07 thu 19/01/2068 =0
local: 8:42:27 sun 07/05/2017


Last edited by FRANK43; 05-09-2017 at 11:53 AM.
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post #19402 of 19437 Old 05-09-2017, 08:41 PM
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I probably would've just posted photos. Anyway, that is really weird. It looks like you have almost an even split between stations saying it's DST right now and stations saying it's Standard time right now - and the Pal has (incorrectly) decided it's Standard time.

The stations with TSIDs over 10000 are probably your Mexican stations. Several of them seem to think it's standard time. A couple are correct. One (30028) seems to realize it's DST but has its GMT clock off an hour!

The station with a TSID of 1 is probably a local low-power station. A lot of low-power stations broadcast 0 or 1 instead of a unique TSID.

You also have several stations broadcasting really wacky times, including KINT (2831) and KTFN (2835). Those broadcast Spanish-language programming but they're definitely US stations, so I don't know why their STTs are so far off they aren't even in the right decade, let alone time zone! They also have their DST flags wrong. I wonder if you can contact the engineers at those two stations and get them to fix the times they're broadcasting? (You may need to speak Spanish or find someone who does.)

Luckily, the Pal seems to have sorted out that part of the puzzle and believes CBS, NBC, ABC, PBS, and Fox are within 20 seconds or so of the true time. The big problem is that it thinks it's Standard time, which throws all displayed times off an hour. You could compensate by lying to the Pal and telling it you're in Central time zone instead of Mountain, but you'd have to switch back to Mountain when we really do go on Standard time in Nov.

The thing I'd be worried about is that if one or two stations fix their DST flags, the Pal will flip back to DST, with all the headaches that causes.
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post #19403 of 19437 Old 05-10-2017, 05:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FRANK43 View Post
zone: +0
save:+0 (enabled)
time: 14:40:00 sun 07/05/2017
secs: 547483255
next:03:14:07 thu 19/01/2068 =0
local: 8:42:27 sun 07/05/2017
This is the summary section for ATSC. If DST was being used the SAVE: line would read "save:+3600 (enabled)" (Offset 3600 seconds??)
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post #19404 of 19437 Old 05-10-2017, 05:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete-N2 View Post
Leave it alone and see if it records 60 minutes. (Is 60 minutes identified for recording?) If it does does consider ignoring the displayed time and choosing your programs from the grid.
Frank, What was the result?
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post #19405 of 19437 Old 05-11-2017, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete-N2 View Post
Frank, What was the result?
It did record 60 minutes ( set to MDT but not some other shows, and some started 8 min. late . Monday I turned PAL 1 ( the one that is on all the time) in the afternoon and the time had switched to the correct MDT and the grid was correct. I selected a show and it recorded, then about an hour later it switched to being 1 hour slow and the grid 1 hour off.

Tuesday I put a -10 db (i have from my Dish sat.) on the back of Pal 1 it knocked 25 point of my signal strength. Did a factory reset and 2 2x soft reboots over the next day. Did nothing to correct time. I lost my NBC station, 30028, 30001, 20502, 20504. It has rcorded (so far) programs I have selected by name OK.

What is really strange is The NBC station and the ABC station towers are right next to each other, on the highest peak and put out 250 and 263 KW of power. The NBC station before showed 78% signal strength and ABC showed 100%

The 2835 KTFN and 2831 KINT ( according to google) are univision and the same tower. Their power is 1000 KW. If they are US stations how are they not even close to FCC regulations. I don't think I will ever be able to get rid of them with reducing signal strength.

Again, I have never had this DST issue before this year. I have a Time Warner 5-1000 MHz 3 way splitter that has 2, 7db and 1, 3db outs. I might try it and see if I get NBC back with out it breaking up and still loosing the other stations. Maybe one of them was causing the radical recordings.

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post #19406 of 19437 Old 05-11-2017, 01:06 PM
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The only way I can see to get rid of KTFN or KINT would be with a low-pass filter. If you could cut off everything above about RF 18 you'd be set. But the closest I can find right off is an LPF-600. That's better than nothing but it would only zap KTFN and a couple of Mexican stations (and wouldn't help at all after repacking). You need something more like an LPF-530.

But getting rid of the Mexican stations should still help. You may have to do a full rescan to remove all traces of those stations though.

An adjustable attenuator would be great in your situation. You could start off at max. attenuation, then gradually increase the signal level until NBC showed up and was stable. Hopefully most of the Mexican stations would still be gone.
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post #19407 of 19437 Old 05-11-2017, 01:47 PM
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The only way I can see to get rid of KTFN or KINT would be with a low-pass filter. If you could cut off everything above about RF 18 you'd be set. But the closest I can find right off is an LPF-600. That's better than nothing but it would only zap KTFN and a couple of Mexican stations (and wouldn't help at all after repacking). You need something more like an LPF-530.

But getting rid of the Mexican stations should still help. You may have to do a full rescan to remove all traces of those stations though.

An adjustable attenuator would be great in your situation. You could start off at max. attenuation, then gradually increase the signal level until NBC showed up and was stable. Hopefully most of the Mexican stations would still be gone.
Not sure what your talking about, way above my knowledge. Is that the round thing the cable companies used to put in the line to block or pass HBO etc? What do you mean "after repacking"?

What is a "full rescan" ? are you talking about a "factory reset"? I have done that so many times I can almost do it in my sleep. I have all the menu numbers written down.

I think I might have to do something with the antenna to get NBC signal up although I don't understand how they are so low as I mentioned above.

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post #19408 of 19437 Old 05-11-2017, 03:05 PM
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Yes, it's similar to those old cable co. line filters.

"Repacking" is explained here: AVS Official Topic: The FCC and Television Spectrum Repack. A lot of folks haven't even heard about it. Basically, in a few years all US and border stations broadcasting on a channel above RF 36 will be moving to lower channels. So, for example, KTFN is currently on RF 51, but they'll be moving down to RF 20. So a 600 MHz low-pass filter that blocks them now won't block them anymore after they move.

A factory reset does a full rescan, but you can do a full rescan without doing a factory reset. I think it's menu option 3-2-1 but not sure. I'll check tonight and update this post.

IDK what's going on with your NBC either. Looking at rabbitears, you'd think it'd be about the same as ABC. It could be destructive interference from multipath; if so, moving the antenna might help.
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post #19409 of 19437 Old 05-13-2017, 08:51 AM
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All "NEXT" info is the same for all. 03:14:00 9/01/2068 (+0)
All stations after "ident" have =0X 4404
The minutes are probably off because of the time it took to write info down. Info was taken when time zone was set to "standard"

PSIP (5), STATE 0X4404, EL:16

2821 cbs 14:10:00 07/05/2017 (+17) +3600
2823 abc " (+16) +3600
2825 nbc " (+19) +3600
2827 pbs " (+21) +3600
2829 fox " (+17) +3600
30028 ? 13:35:00 7/05/2017 (-3681) +3600
2835 ? 14:01:00 11/07/2061 (+1394150272) +0
2831 ? 14:01:00 11/07/2061 (+1394150273) +0
30001 ? 15:11:00 07/05/2017 (+2852) +0
10291 ? 14:25:00 " (+17) +17)
10007 ? 22:12:00 " (+27975) +0
10013 ? 22:12:00 " (+27975) +0
20502 ? 14:29:00 " (+10) +3600
20504 ? 14:29:00 " (+18) +0
20501 ? 14:30:00 " (-134) +3600
1 ? 14:34:00 " (+0) +0

zone: +0
save:+0 (enabled)
time: 14:40:00 sun 07/05/2017
secs: 547483255
next:03:14:07 thu 19/01/2068 =0
local: 8:42:27 sun 07/05/2017
I really would like to have seen the "SAVE:" line but I count roughly 8 stations with the DST flag set and 8 stations for DST NOT. No wonder the DTVPal can't decide. Pick up an outlier a couple of hours/days later and the count changes. (I have no idea what happens to a previously scheduled timer if the DST status suddenly changes.)

Workarounds:

Start calling TV's stations, maybe you could change the balance in the right direction. (Several times I have had to email the GM)

Schedule recordings on a daily basis (after a few days the DTVPal should become more stable)

Get a DVR+ and use internet time and schedule.
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post #19410 of 19437 Old 05-13-2017, 08:58 AM
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It did record 60 minutes ( set to MDT but not some other shows, and some started 8 min. late
The DTVPal averages the time from all the received stations. What was the DTVPal calculated LOCAL time displayed on the diagnostics screen?
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