The Official AVS Dish DTVPal DVR Topic! - Page 648 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #19411 of 19437 Old 05-13-2017, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Pete-N2 View Post
I really would like to have seen the "SAVE:" line but I count roughly 8 stations with the DST flag set and 8 stations for DST NOT. No wonder the DTVPal can't decide. Pick up an outlier a couple of hours/days later and the count changes. (I have no idea what happens to a previously scheduled timer if the DST status suddenly changes.)

Workarounds:

Start calling TV's stations, maybe you could change the balance in the right direction. (Several times I have had to email the GM)

Schedule recordings on a daily basis (after a few days the DTVPal should become more stable)

Get a DVR+ and use internet time and schedule.
More from diagnostics I didn't see

DVB (6), state:0x3303, elements:0
zone:+0
save:+0 (enabled)
time: 14:45 sat 13/05
secs:54801
next: 3:14:07 thu 19/01/2068=0
local: 10:40: sat 13/05/2017
user: (8), state:0x3323,elements:1
-ident:0=0x0020
zone: -25200
zone:-25200
save: +0 (enabled)
time:17:44: sat 13/05/2017
secs:54801
next:13:14: thu 19/01/2068=0
local: 10:47: sat 13/05/2017

Gem* (12), state:0x3313, elements=0
zone: -25200
same: +0 (enabled)
time;17:51 sat 13/05/2017
secs: 54801
next: 3:14:07 thu 19/01/2068 =0
local: 10:53:42 sat 13/05/2017

view

The guide time is behind 1 hour and 28 seconds


Last edited by FRANK43; 05-13-2017 at 12:01 PM.
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post #19412 of 19437 Old 05-13-2017, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by JHBrandt View Post
Yes, it's similar to those old cable co. line filters.

"Repacking" is explained here: AVS Official Topic: The FCC and Television Spectrum Repack. A lot of folks haven't even heard about it. Basically, in a few years all US and border stations broadcasting on a channel above RF 36 will be moving to lower channels. So, for example, KTFN is currently on RF 51, but they'll be moving down to RF 20. So a 600 MHz low-pass filter that blocks them now won't block them anymore after they move.

A factory reset does a full rescan, but you can do a full rescan without doing a factory reset. I think it's menu option 3-2-1 but not sure. I'll check tonight and update this post.

IDK what's going on with your NBC either. Looking at rabbitears, you'd think it'd be about the same as ABC. It could be destructive interference from multipath; if so, moving the antenna might help.
I moved the antenna. 7&9 are both the same signal strength (with the -10 db on the pal 1 line) 76 The time or grid didn't change. I schedule a program name to record and it record at correct time. I now have indiagnostics PSIP (5) el 11 were before i had 5 and 16. I have not done a "setup wizard" 3-2-1-1 or deleted any unwanted chanels. all i ever leave in he guide are cbs, abc, nbc, pbs and fox

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post #19413 of 19437 Old 05-13-2017, 12:01 PM
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I think we can ignore the data "DVB (6)" and below. The only data we are interested in is PSIP and its summary.

BTW is your clock currently off by 1 hour?
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post #19414 of 19437 Old 05-13-2017, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete-N2 View Post
I think we can ignore the data "DVB (6)" and below. The only data we are interested in is PSIP and its summary.

BTW is your clock currently off by 1 hour?
I thought the DVB and below data was what you wanted when you said " I really would like to have seen the "SAVE:" line

yes, my guide clock is behind 1hour and 28 seconds. the guide data is also behind 1 hour. this is all tolerable if it records the show name OK and doesn't mess up. This will take a few days of setting recordings

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post #19415 of 19437 Old 05-13-2017, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by FRANK43 View Post
I thought the DVB and below data was what you wanted when you said " I really would like to have seen the "SAVE:" line

yes, my guide clock is behind 1hour and 28 seconds. the guide data is also behind 1 hour. this is all tolerable if it records the show name OK and doesn't mess up. This will take a few days of setting recordings
Just turned pal back on, turned it off after last post, the time is now correct and the guide is correct. it is 3:50 MDT here now. My wife said don't get your hopes up!

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post #19416 of 19437 Old 05-14-2017, 06:02 AM
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Originally Posted by FRANK43 View Post
My wife said don't get your hopes up!
I agree with her. As long as half of the DST data is wrong the DTVPal's will be subject to errors.

Did you pick up any additional services yesterday?

Give it a couple of days and see if it stabilizes.
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post #19417 of 19437 Old 05-14-2017, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Pete-N2 View Post
I agree with her. As long as half of the DST data is wrong the DTVPal's will be subject to errors.

Did you pick up any additional services yesterday?

Give it a couple of days and see if it stabilizes.
About the diagnostic screen, without doing a rescan will TSID's no longer picked up (because I moved the antenna) be deleted? I'm pretty sure if a station is added the TSID is added to the diagnostic screen.

This morning the correct time and grid info was correct. I have not done anything except select programs to record and all have been done OK

I just went and turned the PAL on and 3 new stations were added since earlier this this mornng. Some were from the first diagnostic screen that were ther before the 10 db . I now have 13 elements. TSID 20501 and 20502 both have +3600.

in my program guide I actually have 4 stations with the same call letters 01,02, 44,48 all xhcjh-t have +3600. by my count I now have 9 +3600. I also think I have more stations in the guide than TSID's. 48 (3years ago) was 2057 but now in diagnostics so they must have changed at some point.

will not delete any stations from the guide or scan and let this ride for a few days. If everything stays OK I'll let you know and ask you what you think I should do first.

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post #19418 of 19437 Old 05-14-2017, 04:55 PM
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The time data will hang around long after the station goes away. I have had problems where a station received briefly due to atmospheric conditions caused a slow drift in the averaged time. Even though the station was never heard from again, the DVR just let its idea of the stations clock drift with the local oscillator.

I finally got tired of it and did a factory reset to make them go away.

You might try complaining to the FCC that stations are failing to follow ATSC standard A/65 on time as required by FCC regulations.
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post #19419 of 19437 Old 05-14-2017, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FRANK43 View Post
I moved the antenna. 7&9 are both the same signal strength (with the -10 db on the pal 1 line) 76 The time or grid didn't change. I schedule a program name to record and it record at correct time. I now have in diagnostics PSIP (5) el 11 were before i had 5 and 16. I have not done a "setup wizard" 3-2-1-1 or deleted any unwanted chanels. all i ever leave in he guide are cbs, abc, nbc, pbs and fox
Good to hear you got NBC back.

Unfortunately the Pal will use every channel it can receive or has received to calculate time and DST. Deleting stations from the guide has no effect. On the ones it's not receiving now, it even seems to estimate the station's clock based on how much time has elapsed since the last time it did receive it! (Not sure if it does that, but those stations do remain in the diagnostics screen and have "times" ascribed to them.) So now that you have the attenuator in place and have moved your antenna, you really need to do the 3-2-1-1 then recheck the diagnostics screen to see if it's going to help your DST problems.
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post #19420 of 19437 Old 05-15-2017, 05:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JHBrandt View Post
Good to hear you got NBC back.

Unfortunately the Pal will use every channel it can receive or has received to calculate time and DST. Deleting stations from the guide has no effect. On the ones it's not receiving now, it even seems to estimate the station's clock based on how much time has elapsed since the last time it did receive it! (Not sure if it does that, but those stations do remain in the diagnostics screen and have "times" ascribed to them.) So now that you have the attenuator in place and have moved your antenna, you really need to do the 3-2-1-1 then recheck the diagnostics screen to see if it's going to help your DST problems.
If you do a 3-2-1-1 there is no guarantee NBC will come back right away. I'd leave everything alone and see what happens over the next few days.

Yes, when you loose a station the DTVPal estimates the station's time using the internal clock. This means the station clock error on diagnostics increases by the DTVPal internal clock error, usually +8 seconds a day. When the error reaches somewhere around 5 minutes the DTVPal drops the station from the time calculations. Several weeks later you receive the station again for a few seconds the clock is corrected and the process starts again.
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post #19421 of 19437 Old 05-15-2017, 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by schultdw View Post
You might try complaining to the FCC that stations are failing to follow ATSC standard A/65 on time as required by FCC regulations.
A 7/29/15 comment from a local station GM:

Quote:
I'm glad you didn't waste your time. If it doesn't have to do with obscenity, political advertising or the spectrum auction, the FCC doesn't care. It has 1,000,000 obscenity complaints sitting around, for example. It would be difficult to get the attention of the enforcement bureau for a clock setting.

That having been said, we do like all of our equipment to work as it's supposed to. With a very small (but excellent) maintenance staff and all of the requirements of our plant, we do have to prioritize.

Best of luck to you.
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post #19422 of 19437 Old 05-15-2017, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete-N2 View Post
A 7/29/15 comment from a local station GM:
In retrospect, instead of coming up with this cockamamie scheme relying on broadcaster's clocks, Echostar would have been better off investing in a more accurate crystal for the local clock. I have a cheap little travel alarm I bought from AAA that doesn't seem to lose or gain a minute even over a year.
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post #19423 of 19437 Old 05-15-2017, 01:38 PM
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True. They'd still have the DST issue though.
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post #19424 of 19437 Old 05-15-2017, 03:11 PM
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In retrospect, instead of coming up with this cockamamie scheme relying on broadcaster's clocks, Echostar would have been better off investing in a more accurate crystal for the local clock.
It would work if the few suppliers of PSIP hardware cared to make it work as intended and required.

Echostar didn't need a more accurate local oscillator, they just needed to use the included Ethernet port to talk to a network time server. Perhaps they were too trusting in the fact that ATSC standards required stations to keep accurate time. Who knew then that stations wouldn't bother? Of course we didn't know this was a problem until TVGOS went away.

I still complain on occasion to stations and the FCC and sometimes I even get a response. If nobody complains they have zero incentive to do anything.
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post #19425 of 19437 Old 05-15-2017, 04:02 PM
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Echostar didn't need a more accurate local oscillator, they just needed to use the included Ethernet port to talk to a network time server.
Well back when they were developing this for the PAL, the NIST internet time server and protocols were probably not that mature or reliable (I recall internet time was pretty sketchy back when I was running Windows 95 and Windows XP). Besides, once there were no more firmware updates, who bothered to keep their PAL connected to the internet 24/7? I did all my updates manually anyway.
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post #19426 of 19437 Old 05-16-2017, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by schultdw View Post
It would work if the few suppliers of PSIP hardware cared to make it work as intended and required.

Echostar didn't need a more accurate local oscillator, they just needed to use the included Ethernet port to talk to a network time server. Perhaps they were too trusting in the fact that ATSC standards required stations to keep accurate time. Who knew then that stations wouldn't bother? Of course we didn't know this was a problem until TVGOS went away.

I still complain on occasion to stations and the FCC and sometimes I even get a response. If nobody complains they have zero incentive to do anything.
Ya, all this started when TVGOS went away. I would occasionally have problems with some stations back then when thier TVGOS wasn't working. I had all the engineers email back then as one would give me everyone elses. Now they don't even list them on the station personel website.

When TVGOS went away the PSIP time was alsways about 30 to 40 seconds behind. The stations don't care about the Quiet Act either, in fact I think it is worse now than before. I have to adjust every station, one NBC is at least 6 numbers down from the highest.

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post #19427 of 19437 Old 05-16-2017, 02:51 PM
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But the crux of Frank43's current problems is Daylight Saving Time. Neither a more accurate local clock nor Internet time servers would deal with DST.

One way to deal with DST is through the use of fixed rules. This is the approach Windows, for example, takes; however, it requires an update any time some country changes their DST rules.

In 20-20 hindsight, simply providing Pal owners a 3-way DST choice: no DST, April-October DST, or March-November DST, would've worked just fine. As it happens, the US and Canada have used the March-November schedule since 2007, about the same time the Pal was being designed, and Mexico (except border towns) uses the April-October schedule, so if the Pal had gone this route, it would never have needed an update.

But, not knowing the future, there was always a chance any of these countries could've changed their DST schedule at any time, so E* chose instead to rely on the stations sending accurate DST change info. Unfortunately, that's proven to be a disaster, both for Frank43 and for those of us who have to suffer through a 1-day DST foul-up one month before every actual DST change. Turns out station-provided info isn't so reliable after all.

In the US, there was another possibility: WWVB could've been used to provide both accurate time and a guaranteed-correct DST schedule. An LF receiver on the circuit board and a cheap loopstick antenna plugged into the back of the Pal would've been the only extra hardware needed. But Mexico and Canada don't have an equivalent to WWVB. (Canada does have some shortwave stations similar to WWV in the US, but having to connect a shortwave antenna to your DVR is probably asking a bit too much )
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post #19428 of 19437 Old 07-04-2017, 05:48 AM
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If you are looking to replace your DTVPal with a DVR+ now maybe the time to do it. CM is selling the DVR+ for 144.44 today. Link: https://www.channelmaster.com/Special_Offers_s/364.htm
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post #19429 of 19437 Old 07-04-2017, 01:47 PM
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Thanks! BTW, the sale goes from today through the 24th (although at that price the DVR+ may sell out long before then), and they have some other products on sale that may be of interest to us OTA TV viewers..
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post #19430 of 19437 Old 07-04-2017, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by JHBrandt View Post
Thanks! BTW, the sale goes from today through the 24th (although at that price the DVR+ may sell out long before then), and they have some other products on sale that may be of interest to us OTA TV viewers..
Thanks Pete-N2 - In for 1 + a good price on a Signal Amp.

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post #19431 of 19437 Old 07-29-2017, 12:30 PM
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Yes, I also picked up a signal amp during the sale. I have a possible use for it, the next time I get back to my mother-in-law's home.

On another topic, since joining the RabbitEars.info live bandscan, I'm surprised how many stations come in briefly overnight via tropo. But I'm even more surprised my Pal has never added any of these channels to its channel list!

I thought it automatically added any channel it didn't recognize, during one of its periodic scans to update the program guide. But apparently it's a little smarter than I thought, and only adds a new channel if it's there consistently over the course of multiple scans. (Yet the "recognition threshold" is apparently low enough that tropo channels do get added occasionally.)
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post #19432 of 19437 Old 07-30-2017, 05:32 AM
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I thought it automatically added any channel it didn't recognize, during one of its periodic scans to update the program guide. But apparently it's a little smarter than I thought, and only adds a new channel if it's there consistently over the course of multiple scans. (Yet the "recognition threshold" is apparently low enough that tropo channels do get added occasionally.)
Or maybe it scans channels on the list every couple of hours and the entire band every couple of days...
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post #19433 of 19437 Old 07-30-2017, 06:33 AM
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..I thought it automatically added any channel it didn't recognize, during one of its periodic scans to update the program guide..
I've only seen mine add new channels overnight when in standby mode. But not always. Like 27.5. Neither of my 'Pals auto-added it. Running "Add a new channel" didn't add 27.5 either. Only way to get 27.5 finally was to do a setup wizard to make it dump all the exiting channels in memory and start anew. Then after getting 27.5 added, both 'Pals had lost sync with the time and were gaining about 8-10 sec a day, I did not set the clock during the setup, just let it find the time supposedly, so I had to do the double-soft reboot to get the clocks on time, now within 5 seconds of correct time.

Are all OTA DVRs as quirky as the DTVPal?
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post #19434 of 19437 Old 07-30-2017, 08:12 AM
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...
Are all OTA DVRs as quirky as the DTVPal?
Wrong question.

You should ask about your local stations' behavior....
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post #19435 of 19437 Old 07-30-2017, 08:41 AM
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Wrong question.

You should ask about your local stations' behavior....
No I asked the right question. You are deviating off topic.

The DTVPal's clock behavior, adding channels to the Pal that other receivers have no issues with, etc... do other DVRs have similar issues, that's the question and I'm sticking to it.
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post #19436 of 19437 Old 07-30-2017, 10:31 AM
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Or maybe it scans channels on the list every couple of hours and the entire band every couple of days...
That's possible, I suppose; but if it's programmed to only do a "full" scan less often, you'd think it'd also be programmed to do them during the day, so it wouldn't pick up tropo stations at all.

But it does pick them up; just not as often as I'd expect, now that I see what comes in if you scan every five minutes.
Quote:
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I've only seen mine add new channels overnight when in standby mode. But not always. Like 27.5. Neither of my 'Pals auto-added it. Running "Add a new channel" didn't add 27.5 either. Only way to get 27.5 finally was to do a setup wizard to make it dump all the exiting channels in memory and start anew. Then after getting 27.5 added, both 'Pals had lost sync with the time and were gaining about 8-10 sec a day, I did not set the clock during the setup, just let it find the time supposedly, so I had to do the double-soft reboot to get the clocks on time, now within 5 seconds of correct time.

Are all OTA DVRs as quirky as the DTVPal?
Well, the PHD-VRX and VRX2 are pretty quirky. So are the MStar boxes (iView, HomeWorX, etc.), although my iView didn't have any trouble picking up 27.5 on a manual scan. The DVR+ also picked 27.5 up on a manual scan. So the specific quirk with 27.5 may be unique to the DTVPal.

I know the TViX 6620 had some quirks with Ion's Airbox service, and a few others, although I don't think overall it was too bad.

Regarding time, the MStar ones just use whatever time is sent by the station they're tuned to, which causes its own problems, but at least is predictable. The DVR+ uses Internet time, apparently from the Rovi guide service, if it's connected to the Internet, and most owners do hook their DVR+'s up to the Internet. But from one user's experience, it apparently uses an average (similar to the DTVPal after two reboots) if it's not connected. Just doesn't require two reboots to lock first - but with the latest firmware it does seem to require being forced to periodically tune to every channel (by, e.g., setting up dummy recordings). Older firmware seemed to keep a PSIP-based guide up-to-date without such extraordinary measures, so apparently a bug with that function was introduced somewhere along the line.

I don't know much about TiVo, but the rest all have some quirks, so TiVo probably does too. "As quirky as the DTVPal" is harder to say, though. IMO the TViX and the DVR+ were/are the least quirky; the PHD-VRX/2 and MStar boxes are the most quirky, and the DTVPal is somewhere in-between.
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post #19437 of 19437 Old 07-30-2017, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ed_in_tx View Post
No I asked the right question. You are deviating off topic.

The DTVPal's clock behavior, adding channels to the Pal that other receivers have no issues with, etc... do other DVRs have similar issues, that's the question and I'm sticking to it.
it's your local air transmitting conditions quirky for sure;

if you are reading the forum you wouldn't find many posts similar to your set of issues, so the DVR is not first thing to blame;

it's incorrect to point a finger to TR-50 without thorough research of your local stations signals and PSIP data
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