How to send a big message about 5C/IC - AVS Forum
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Old 01-30-2002, 02:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Specifically image constraint. All of us with HDTV's should buy a JVC DVHS the day the tapes are released. We must be sure we buy them with a "no hassel" return policy such as Best Buy or Good Guys.

We unbox it tear up the plastic bags, kink up the power cords real good, i.e. make no mistake this unit was unboxed. Then return it claiming it does not play HDTV on the analog outputs. If they quote the manual, say "look, you have a no questions return policy, adhere to it"!

I don't know about other states but in California you can't resell open box stuff as new. It must be disclosed that it's used. That typically commands a discount. The only way around it is to teturn it to the factory and run it back through the QC process. Even in states where they can re-sell it new this will create an expensive paper work hassel.

The word back to JVC will be "don't send us any more, and here take these back".

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Old 01-30-2002, 02:44 PM
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Cool! Count me in!
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Old 01-30-2002, 02:49 PM
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The only problem is the JVC's are not image constrained on the component out. They use that Dtheater or whatever.




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Old 01-30-2002, 02:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kevin Coleman
The only problem is the JVC's are not image constrained on the component out. They use that Dtheater or whatever.




Kevin C. :)
That's TBD. True, the information I got from JVC about Image Constraint is "no, that would be silly, why would we do that". But I'm not convinced until reports come in. We do know the VCR has the technology built in. The manual clearly outlines that in the trouble shooting section.


If they (and they means the studios / MPAA) delay the use of this for a few years to give some life to legacy sets, I have no problem with it. I also have no problem with any copy protection scheme as long as it doesn't constrain the image. It has been suggested the material be coded as "copy once" which would not be constrained. We shall see.

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Old 01-30-2002, 03:06 PM
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I think this whole Dtheater thing is a very intersting development. After all we are not pirates. We don't want to make perfect digital copies of movies we just want to be able to watch them on older HDTV's with component and RGBHV inputs. I always wondered why they couldn't do both? Why do we need a digital connection at all? Why not just use this Dtheater or something similar? Where it only kicks in when you try to copy it sort of like macrovision. You can't make perfect digital copies with analog video anyway?



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Old 01-30-2002, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Glimmie

It has been suggested the material be coded as "copy once" which would not be constrained. We shall see.
This makes the most sense (and reminds me of SCMS for DAT), noting that the copy you made would be copy never and therefore analog constrained! So, the usefulness of any copy is questionable unless you have digital connections...

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Old 01-31-2002, 12:10 PM
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Originally posted by Phloyd
This makes the most sense (and reminds me of SCMS for DAT), noting that the copy you made would be copy never and therefore analog constrained! So, the usefulness of any copy is questionable unless you have digital connections...
My suggestion was that it would have to be not just "Copy Once" but "Copy Once" with "Image Constraint Tokens" embedded in the transport stream. It's the "Image Constraint Tokens" that keep the DTCP compliant device from applying image constraints to copy-protected material, but they're ignored for "Copy Never" material (a stupid rule, IMHO). Marking it "Copy Once" would keep it from being copied by a PC (until someone breaks DTCP :)), but would allow digital dubbing of one copy at a time, deck-to-deck. If they'd allowed IC Tokens to work with "Copy Never", they could have encoded these things such that they could be viewed in full resolution by legacy equipment and not copied at all by DTCP compliant equipment--that's what paranoia will get ya'.

BTW, copies of "Copy One Generation" content are marked "Copy No More", not "Copy Never". Transmission of "Copy Never" material requires a special, heavy-duty (and compute intensive) authentication procedure (no recorder would ever be provisioned with what it takes to pass this)--"Copy No More", being descended from "Copy One Generation", doesn't rate this extra strength protection.

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Old 01-31-2002, 12:19 PM
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The pre-recorded movies that have been announced will have D-Theater on top of 5C. Since they do have 5C, they will have to be constrained.
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Old 01-31-2002, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by vruiz
The pre-recorded movies that have been announced will have D-Theater on top of 5C. Since they do have 5C, they will have to be constrained.
I don't think that is necessarily correct. It is up to the content provider to request/include the down rez flags. With D-Theater encryption down rez is not needed since the material cannot be copied. It can only be played on a D-Theater compliant device. Take it to a non D-Theater device and it will be down rez'd or simply not play at all. As Gary Merson showed in his HDTV Insider newsletter, the D-Theater encrypted tapes played just fine through the component outputs in HD.

Only time will tell but I don't see JVC selling a product and taking such a PR risk if such a small portion of the HD viewers can even view it.

Where does it specify down rezing for 5C? I could be wrong but I thought only DVI/HDCP required down rezing.
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Old 01-31-2002, 02:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by GScott
As Gary Merson showed in his HDTV Insider newsletter, the D-Theater encrypted tapes played just fine through the component outputs in HD.
Define "just fine" it may have been constrained and he didn't notice it or didn't mention it.

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Where does it specify down rezing for 5C? I could be wrong but I thought only DVI/HDCP required down rezing.
5C/1394 is where downrezzing is used. DVI has no downrezzing requirement because it has no analog provision. (Exhibit C 3.4 of HDCP)

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Old 01-31-2002, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by GScott
I don't think that is necessarily correct. It is up to the content provider to request/include the down rez flags.
You have it backwards. Once the program has been encrypted with 5C it must constrain the image, unless the provider has inserted Image Constraint Tokens, which will tell the device not to constrain. Image constraint is not the exception, but the rule.

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As Gary Merson showed in his HDTV Insider newsletter, the D-Theater encrypted tapes played just fine through the component outputs in HD.
The D-Theater demo tapes that Gary tested are not Hollywood movies, but rather "rock concerts and HDTV demonstration material", which you would not expect to be 5C encrypted. You can rest assured that for these movies that have been announced they will use the strongest encryption possible ("copy never" with no Image Constraint Tokens), otherwise what's the point?

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Where does it specify down rezing for 5C? I could be wrong but I thought only DVI/HDCP required down rezing.
Actually, it is 5C (DTCP) the one that especifies image constraint. See section 2.2 of the DTCP Licensing Agreement.
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Old 01-31-2002, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by vruiz
The pre-recorded movies that have been announced will have D-Theater on top of 5C. Since they do have 5C, they will have to be constrained.
The tapes can't be encrypted with DTCP, Vic. DTCP encryption involves values exchanged between the source and sink just prior to the start of sending content. The encryption is thereby "customized"--the encrypted stream cannot be decrypted by any device other than the one that it's being sent to, since only it holds the private keys whose public keys the content's been encrypted with.

There are MPEG-2 TS extension packets which contain copy-protection flags (and the infamous "Image Constraint Tokens")--if these are stored with the MPEG on the tape, they can be read to determine what level of copy-protection to apply on output.

DTCP doesn't specify a way to encrypt content on media. That's why I think that the studios are happy about D-Theater. I think that Mitsubishi feels that the bigger problem in stealing content from a D-VHS tape would lie in reading it without a D-VHS transport manufactured by one of the D-VHS licensees. Engineering your own transport for reading these tapes could be very difficult. Of course, it might be possible to hack one of the existing ones, even if they had safeguards against it.

D-Theater also serves to keep these tapes from being played on the deck whose DTCP implementation is suspect, the PV-HD1000.

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Old 01-31-2002, 05:10 PM
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Thanks for the clarification, Mike. So, when Gary Merson says here "These prerecorded tapes contain both 5C /DTCP and D-Theater encryption", how exactly will that work?
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Old 01-31-2002, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by vruiz
Thanks for the clarification, Mike. So, when Gary Merson says here "These prerecorded tapes contain both 5C /DTCP and D-Theater encryption", how exactly will that work?
I dunno--ask him. As I suggested, maybe he was talking about flags embedded in the content to tell the deck to apply 5C protections on output. But I defy anyone to show me anywhere that the public DTCP documentation gives a method for encryption/decryption of content for storage, which is a hugely different problem--as I stated, the encryption that it uses on the wire will not work for that purpose.

Stored content encryption is a very tough nut, especially when anonymous devices will have to be able to decrypt what you've stored. The data's just sitting there on the media and, given that a hacker can gain access to it, he can analyze it at his leisure, until the code is broken. CSS was an attempt at this which, due to its inherent weakness and the poor security of a PC software maker, ended up dumping a catalog of thousands of standard definition digital video renditions of Hollywood films into the public domain. I read some official from one of the studios call D-Theater "a nearly perfect protection system", or something like that--we shall see.

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Old 01-31-2002, 08:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Glimmie
I don't know about other states but in California you can't resell open box stuff as new. It must be disclosed that it's used. That typically commands a discount.
Hah! Tell that to Fry's! :rolleyes:

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Old 01-31-2002, 09:32 PM
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"How to send a big message about 5C/IC "

I am not sure that the message sent will be the message received.

Returns have a hidden advantage in that they allow differential pricing. Open box items at a discount appeal to price sensitive customers. Risk adverse customers will still prefer the new product if the price differential is not too great. It can result in making more money than if there were only a single new price.
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Old 02-01-2002, 12:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by michaeltscott
Hah! Tell that to Fry's! :rolleyes:

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Yeah, I know. I have trusted that infamous label on the box twice so far and got burned both times. And I'm sure a few more customers got the same product after I returned it.

As big as they are (read big legal and media target) and as much as people hate them, I am surprised this hasn't been at the top of some state agencies to fix list, who ever that is.

Thinking about it though, if they disclose the product is returned (and they do), they may be OK. They don't have to offer a discount - do they? I'm not 100% sure on the law.

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Old 02-01-2002, 12:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Alan Sh
"How to send a big message about 5C/IC "

I am not sure that the message sent will be the message received.

Returns have a hidden advantage in that they allow differential pricing. Open box items at a discount appeal to price sensitive customers. Risk adverse customers will still prefer the new product if the price differential is not too great. It can result in making more money than if there were only a single new price.
Interesting, I didn't think of that. But I know nothing about retail marketing (or any marketing for that matter):confused:

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Old 02-01-2002, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Glimmie


Yeah, I know. I have trusted that infamous label on the box twice so far and got burned both times. And I'm sure a few more customers got the same product after I returned it.

As big as they are (read big legal and media target) and as much as people hate them, I am surprised this hasn't been at the top of some state agencies to fix list, who ever that is.

Thinking about it though, if they disclose the product is returned (and they do), they may be OK. They don't have to offer a discount - do they? I'm not 100% sure on the law.
Can you tell me about Fry's??? They are proposing building a store here in Downers Grove, Il.

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Old 02-01-2002, 10:41 AM
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Originally posted by kippjones

Can you tell me about Fry's??? They are proposing building a store here in Downers Grove, Il.
Really? I wonder if it will be near a Metra train or Pace bus stop. As much as the people who have access to Fry's complain about them, they all seem to shop there. They have a retail concept totally unlike anything in Chicago. It makes CompUSA, Microcenter Best Buy and Circuit City look anemic.
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Old 02-01-2002, 12:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by kippjones


Can you tell me about Fry's??? They are proposing building a store here in Downers Grove, Il.
Fry's is really a good thing if you are into this stuff. They have things nobody else has. Their oricing is as good as internet and computer swap meets. You can return anything for any reason ( exceptions for lap top computers and camcorders). Keep the following in mind and you will do well shopping there.

1) Know exactly what you want.

2) Know where it is or have time to search for it.

3) Do not ask sales people for help, they know nothing.

4) Do not take sales people's unsolicited advice.

5) If a product has a Fry's return label on it, it's probably defective. The "checked by a Fry's associate" is hogwash. They simply re-shrink wrap ity and put it back on the shelf. Even if it is OK, people buy motherboards and assemble it on their nylon carpet in a heated room (lot's of static), hook the power supply up wrong, put the memory and processor in backwards, etc.

6) If you are seen by a sales person picking up or carring a high value product, DVD player for example, they will intercept you and offer to give you a qoute. Ignore them and take it to the counter yourself. This is how they get commision. But if you pick it your self, why waste time while a sales person writes up a quote for doing nothing before hand. Now if they assist you and stick with you while you look at stuff, that's different and they deserve the commision.

7) Some small high value items, hard disks, processors, memory, require a quote and the items are released from a secure cage in the checkout pit. be prepared to wait, and frequently get the wrong item. Check it carefully.

8) Here in LA they are starting to check serial numbers on computer board products. I guess people have been buying a new VGA card for example and returning their old one in the new box. So they need to do this but if the serial number requires unpacking the card, you do it because the check out poeple no nothing about static electricity damage.

9) On the way out your bag will be checked against your receipt. Some people have a serious problem with this and go off citing the constitution. I am sure they have the right to search packages as long as they do it consistantly with everyone and they do. After all, we have nothing to hide. If this is a serious problem, then don't shop there and wait for some court to declare this a voilation of people's rights.

10) Never, never go in Fry's the weekend before or the week between Christmas. The lines go to the back of the store. I'm not exagerating!

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Old 02-01-2002, 12:49 PM
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I would second everything that Glimmie mentioned. Repackagaing and putting stuff back on the shelf marked at the standard price is outragious and I never touch Fry's repackaged merchandise; very often it's incomplete too. But it's a very useful place to have around and occasionally, just occasionally, you will find a sales councelor who really knows what they're talking about (it's happened to me once!).

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Old 02-01-2002, 01:06 PM
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I really don't think it's fair to Circuit City or whatever retailer we're talking about here for someone to buy something, knowing they're going to return it. It's not the retailer's fault that JVC decided to produce this product. And as far as the retailer is concerned, people may want what JVC has to offer.

DIVX was a different matter.

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Old 02-01-2002, 02:11 PM
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Originally posted by mdv
I really don't think it's fair to Circuit City or whatever retailer we're talking about here for someone to buy something, knowing they're going to return it.
In general I would agree 100% with you.

But to be fair, as of now, a member of the public who's just bought an HDTV with component-only inputs and read the many articles in the past few days about release of D-VHS pre-recorded tapes will not unreasonably assume that all they need do is buy this JVC player mentioned in the article and they are set to watch the vids in HD. I betcha $100 that if you walked into *ANY* Circuit City, and spoke with the most knowledgable HD guru in the joint, and asked them if the HM30000u will play back the mentioned tapes in HD through component inputs their new HD TV, they would say "yes".... I betcha anything.

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Old 02-02-2002, 12:34 PM
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That's a good point but now we're talking about sending a message to Circuit City that they need to educate their salespeople.

However, I don't think we can expect the poor salesperson to know how these tapes and VCRs are going to perform when we can't even get a consensus here. And no, I'm not one of these poor salespeople.

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Old 02-02-2002, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mdv
However, I don't think we can expect the poor salesperson to know how these tapes and VCRs are going to perform when we can't even get a consensus here.
I nominate this as the understatement of the decade.

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Old 02-04-2002, 07:29 AM
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Your open then return strategy will only punish the retailers, which is not where the big money is.

All these copy protection schemes are doomed to fail in the marketplace, especially if we all vote with our wallets.

Can you say Divx? Can you remember when lotus/wordperfect etc would only let you install it once, and then not back it up or defrag the disk? People hated it and the marketplace ruled.

There will be operational difficulties with these schemes which will punish the fair user. They will not stop the pirates.

For instance I can forsee that someone will be in the middle of a movie and, say, the power goes out for 10 seconds. Then the power comes on and the tape won't play because it's been played before. Or maybe it needs to start at the beginning.

Morever, lets say that a written report needs to be made about this movie, and it is due in 90 minutes. This written report may make the difference between winning or losing a court case, or between an A and a B in school, which will prevent getting a scholarship and prevent getting into Harvard. And on and on.

These operational difficulties will leave a very bad and permanent taste in people's mouths. They will hate it and leave it behind. Then, some smart MBA will figure out how to clean up the market with a better system and make a killing, retire rich, be lionized as a genius, and the newspapers will report how stupid the system was in the first place.

Just my opinion.

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