Blu Ray recorder coming to US -- sort of... - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 39 Old 09-14-2009, 07:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Courtesy of TWICE:

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JVC introduced at CEDIA Expo here Thursday a pair of the first Blu-ray Disc/hard disk recording decks for the U.S. market.

However, the manufacturer qualified the release by saying the products are targeted primarily at commercial applications and won't allow recording TV programming off-air or over cable and satellite systems, and will not permit duplicating copyrighted discs of any kind.

The recorderswill be sold through JVC's professional products division, with the least expensive of the two players selling for $1995.

So, a tunerless recorder that will sell for about two grand...gee, I'm really impressed. Really, it effectively shows how much the MPAA has managed to cow the consumer electronics companies in this country that they're now afraid to sell what would be a perfectly legal device here.

For anyone who is curious to know more, here's the link to the full article:

http://www.twice.com/article/346140-...le&rid=6019102
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post #2 of 39 Old 09-15-2009, 09:31 AM
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It says it has firewire inputs! Who knows if it is an authorized 5c device. And it might only work with camcorder firewire sources. Wonder if it would work with a firewire output from an STB....
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post #3 of 39 Old 09-15-2009, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas Desmond View Post

Really, it effectively shows how much the MPAA has managed to cow the consumer electronics companies in this country that they're now afraid to sell what would be a perfectly legal device here.

Depressing, isn't it?

If their excuse is that BD-R(E) is too easy to create unauthorized copies of, then they could at least re-invest support into D-VHS; A fully complete system that works right now. But the cause of home recording of HD is almost dead. We can only hope for small, mostly independent companies to develop working solutions that cost a bit but work well some of the time.
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post #4 of 39 Old 09-16-2009, 06:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas Desmond View Post

Really, it effectively shows how much the MPAA has managed to cow the consumer electronics companies in this country that they're now afraid to sell what would be a perfectly legal device here.

Could it be, that there is simply no market in the US for a home BD recorder -- or any removable media recorder for that matter. At least not in big enough numbers to interest the manufacturers. Witness the fold up of the DVD recorder market 2 years ago. Given the ready availability of all new TV series on DVD soon after the season ends, there are relatively few people that want to spend their own time to record, edit and burn endless disks of TV programs they'll never watch again. And those that do, don't want to pay more than $200-300 for a machine to do so -- the price bar set when the low-end suppliers entered the market.

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post #5 of 39 Old 09-16-2009, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by ak3883 View Post

It says it has firewire inputs! Who knows if it is an authorized 5c device. And it might only work with camcorder firewire sources. Wonder if it would work with a firewire output from an STB....


Yes it is 5C compatible and will record anything that uses MPEG2 TS like cable MPEG2 or MPEG4 plus of course camcorders. These are full BD Recorders with all the features minus tuners. Nobody really records OTA in US anyway.
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post #6 of 39 Old 09-16-2009, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

And those that do, don't want to pay more than $200-300 for a machine to do so -- the price bar set when the low-end suppliers entered the market.

Maybe we'll see a Funai BD recorder some day.
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post #7 of 39 Old 09-16-2009, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by CKNA View Post

Nobody really records OTA in US anyway.

??????
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post #8 of 39 Old 09-16-2009, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CKNA View Post

Yes it is 5C compatible and will record anything that uses MPEG2 TS like cable MPEG2 or MPEG4 plus of course camcorders. These are full BD Recorders with all the features minus tuners. Nobody really records OTA in US anyway.

Well, that puts a dent in my engine rebuild savings...
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post #9 of 39 Old 09-16-2009, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CKNA View Post

Nobody really records OTA in US anyway.

I must be the "nobody" mentioned above! And, considering that there is at least one DVR which is a dedicated OTA recorder with many, many buyers ... enough said about the above statement.
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post #10 of 39 Old 09-17-2009, 05:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Russell_ View Post

I must be the "nobody" mentioned above! And, considering that there is at least one DVR which is a dedicated OTA recorder with many, many buyers ... enough said about the above statement.

OK very few. OTA in US is not primary viewing for 95% of population. In order for tuners to be fully useful in US they would also need to have cable cards, which we know at this time suck. There should be more BD recorder announcements for US during 2010 CES.
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post #11 of 39 Old 09-17-2009, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Rammitinski View Post

??????

OK, OK I did not mean to slight anybody. What I meant that most people do not watch or record OTA exclusively in US.
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post #12 of 39 Old 09-17-2009, 06:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rammitinski View Post

Maybe we'll see a Funai BD recorder some day.

If the BD market thrives, which I'm not convinced of yet, funai will certainly get their fingers in the pie. But with prices of quality BD players from the majors coming down rapidly to the magic $99 price point (Panasonic DMP-BD60K, profile 2 is already down to $175 online), funai's junk won't have as devastating an effect on the player market.

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post #13 of 39 Old 09-17-2009, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CKNA View Post

OK very few. OTA in US is not primary viewing for 95% of population. In order for tuners to be fully useful in US they would also need to have cable cards, which we know at this time suck. There should be more BD recorder announcements for US during 2010 CES.

I would argue that point in that numbers I've seen indicate ~15% of US households are OTA-only. But for your other statement
Quote:


Nobody really records OTA in US anyway.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the context in which you issued it -- a Blu-Ray recorder to record to removable media -- and agree with you. As I noted above, few people are willing to expend the time and effort to make optical disks (SD or HD) of network TV, when they can so readily buy clean copies.

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post #14 of 39 Old 09-17-2009, 07:34 AM
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FWIW I would like a recorder for HD football games that I would like to save and re-watch still in HD. High speed (SP) recording on dual discs is pretty good but I don't understand why I can't have the real thing. How does limiting OTA recording ( or cable/satellite recording of sports,) effect movies that as far as I know are only shown with commercials and highly edited on OTA channels? Who cares if someone records those crappy versions of a movie.
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post #15 of 39 Old 09-17-2009, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hhawk View Post

FWIW I would like a recorder for HD football games that I would like to save and re-watch still in HD. High speed (SP) recording on dual discs is pretty good but I don't understand why I can't have the real thing.

Look into a TiVo HD. You can transfer any recorded OTA HD broadcast (or non-protected cable broadcast) to a PC disk farm via ethernet for off-line storage and send it back later when you want to watch again. With some simple PC software, you can edit out commercials and burn it in HD/5.1 to either BD or DVD (AVCHD format), both of which require a BluRay player for playback. You can also transcode to a high-quality SD/5.1 and burn to standard DVD-video for playback in conventional equipment.

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post #16 of 39 Old 09-17-2009, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CKNA View Post

Yes it is 5C compatible and will record anything that uses MPEG2 TS like cable MPEG2 or MPEG4 plus of course camcorders. These are full BD Recorders with all the features minus tuners. Nobody really records OTA in US anyway.

Too bad it's so expensive, 5c flags on my cable system are loose(only HD premiums marked Copy-Once, the rest are Copy-Free). Each newer box/firmware seems to further cripple the firewire interfaces though.
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post #17 of 39 Old 09-17-2009, 06:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

Could it be, that there is simply no market in the US for a home BD recorder -- or any removable media recorder for that matter. At least not in big enough numbers to interest the manufacturers. Witness the fold up of the DVD recorder market 2 years ago. Given the ready availability of all new TV series on DVD soon after the season ends, there are relatively few people that want to spend their own time to record, edit and burn endless disks of TV programs they'll never watch again. And those that do, don't want to pay more than $200-300 for a machine to do so -- the price bar set when the low-end suppliers entered the market.

That would explain why they opted not to release a BD recorder through their consumer division.

However, why not include a tuner and timer in these BD recorders that are being offered through their professional products division? It's not unprecedented, because back in the days when VHS ruled, the professional products division of Panasonic did offer some products that included tuners (and I think this was also true for JVC), along with units that lacked tuners. And face it...the cost of adding a tuner to a recorder that will sell for almost two grand is pretty much neglible.
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post #18 of 39 Old 09-18-2009, 05:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas Desmond View Post

However, why not include a tuner and timer in these BD recorders that are being offered through their professional products division? It's not unprecedented, because back in the days when VHS ruled, the professional products division of Panasonic did offer some products that included tuners (and I think this was also true for JVC), along with units that lacked tuners.

Good point and maybe they will introduce models in the future that do include a tuner (although if it didn't include a cable-card slot it would be useless for cable and FIOS). But it seems pretty clear this is targeted at commercial security operations -- i.e. replacing all those aging VHS recorders in banks, building lobbies and casino floors that record hours of footage from surveillance cameras. Although people immediately associate BD with HiDef recording, it can also be considered as just a very high capacity DVD. You can probably store the equivalent of 5 VHS surveillance tapes from low-res security cameras on a single BD and have it take a fraction of the storage space.

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post #19 of 39 Old 09-18-2009, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

If the BD market thrives, which I'm not convinced of yet, funai will certainly get their fingers in the pie. But with prices of quality BD players from the majors coming down rapidly to the magic $99 price point (Panasonic DMP-BD60K, profile 2 is already down to $175 online), funai's junk won't have as devastating an effect on the player market.

It is my opinion that for the BD market to thrive, and not just survive, BD has to be the medium of routine use. That means that BD recorders are available for computers and TV. I also believe the reason that BD recorders for TV are not commercially sound is that they are too hobbled by MPAA restrictions. If they were offered but when they arrived at a consumers home and it was discovered they would not record satellite or some cable shows they would be returned. It is this high return rate that would make them commercially unsuccessful. It is my opinion that 5C restrictions would not hamper the BD market but total lack of recording options may.

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post #20 of 39 Old 09-18-2009, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Rick_R View Post

It is my opinion that for the BD market to thrive, and not just survive, BD has to be the medium of routine use. That means that BD recorders are available for computers and TV. I also believe the reason that BD recorders for TV are not commercially sound is that they are too hobbled by MPAA restrictions. If they were offered but when they arrived at a consumers home and it was discovered they would not record satellite or some cable shows they would be returned. It is this high return rate that would make them commercially unsuccessful. It is my opinion that 5C restrictions would not hamper the BD market but total lack of recording options may.

IMHO I think BD will not thrive until the price of players comes down to $99 AND the price of BluRay movies comes down to what people are used to paying for DVD new releases and the discount bin in walmart. In that equation, the term for a home BD recording device has a very, very small coefficient.

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post #21 of 39 Old 09-20-2009, 10:44 PM
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Wal-Mart did just have a Magnavox BD player on sale for about a month for $99 (there were some people in the Maggie/Philips threads here that bought it, I believe).

It recently went back up in price here, but it's still under $150.

Of course, it's still a Funai, and the disc prices are still up there last time I looked.
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post #22 of 39 Old 09-21-2009, 03:51 PM
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I got the Wal-Mart Magnavox BD player for $138. I got it for the TV in my wife's office. She wanted a DVD player and at that price why not get a BD player. It also has a SD card slot to play stuff recorded on an SD card. Still trying to get it to play movies from my HD SD card camcorder. It needs a format conversion I believe and there is conversion software supplied.

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post #23 of 39 Old 09-21-2009, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rammitinski View Post

Wal-Mart did just have a Magnavox BD player on sale for about a month for $99 (there were some people in the Maggie/Philips threads here that bought it, I believe).

It recently went back up in price here, but it's still under $150.

Of course, it's still a Funai, and the disc prices are still up there last time I looked.

Isn't that the one that's only Profile 1. I'd rather spend another $25 and get a Panasonic DMP-BD60 -- Profile 2 and plays RAM.

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post #24 of 39 Old 09-22-2009, 12:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

Isn't that the one that's only Profile 1.

I have no idea. I don't even know what that means.

Wouldn't matter to me anyway, as you know I would never buy one.

(Some reviews I read of it said the picture quality wasn't all that hot.)
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post #25 of 39 Old 09-22-2009, 07:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rammitinski View Post

I have no idea. I don't even know what that means.

Wouldn't matter to me anyway, as you know I would never buy one.

(Some reviews I read of it said the picture quality wasn't all that hot.)

When BD players were put on the market the specification was not complete and the hardware to implement all the features was too expensive, so the hardware was released in three stages of increasing capability, known as player profiles. There are three player profiles, 1.0, 1.1, 2.0. Profile 2 is the final profile and is known as "BD-Live". Anybody considering buying a new BD player these days should look for profile 2 to get the final version player with all features. If curious, look at this article.

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post #26 of 39 Old 09-23-2009, 10:05 AM
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I just want my BD player to play any BD disk that I purchase. I assume that all profiles will do this. That is all that is of interest to me.

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post #27 of 39 Old 09-28-2009, 11:55 AM
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The reason the major manufacturers will not produce STB Blu Ray recorders (to take the place of VCRs) for the USA market is because of the copy protection laws now in effect. It is not correct that the market for such equipment does not exist - as illustrated by the fact that this equipment is being sold all over the globe. Those US laws put the burden of eliminating illegally copied material on the manufacturers rather than on the law enforcement agencies. The laws hold the manufacturer liable for any illegal copies made on their equipment regardless of circumstance. Hence the manufacturers would need to place strong copy protection algorithms on all equipment sold here. And, since almost all of the major TV programs now being broadcast in HD are sent encoded, such equipment would be worthless for recording HD material.

So there are two major reasons IMO why Sony, Panasonic, Toshiba and all the rest will not invest in such equipment for sale here. One, because it would not sell because it couldn't record much of anything except video from your private video camera, and two, because all of the manufacturers have made the determination that legal consequences arising from the new laws would cost them dearly as they defend themselves against law suits that would arise as illegal methods are found to bypass the copy protection schemes shipped with the equipment. The manufacturers feel they would be held liable even though they had nothing to do with it, and the legal expenses would be overwhelming.

In short IMO our government has once again legislated in favor of big business (in this case the arts and media producers). They have effectively stopped a major sector of the illegal material on the market, but in doing so, they have also eliminated freedom of choice for the consumer. For those that think BluRay equipment will show up at the CES show in a few months - don't hold your breath. Any equipment that does appear will be equipment with heavy usage restrictions like the new JVC recorders that can only record via firewire ports. As we speak every cable company in the USA has now or will soon disable the firewire ports on their STB's for the reason that there is still equipment in operation, like the old DVCR's that can copy HD material via their firewire ports. For the very same reason JVC (the major DVCR manufacturer) will NEVER sell that product or any similar product again.

In fact every avenue that allows for the coping of HD material is being shut down. As an example, one popular and still legitimate method to make copies of HD material today is via the Hauppauge HD-PVR device in conjunction with a top end computer. This method makes use of the analog hole. The analog hole is the HD component output signal. An analog signal cannot transfer the new digital copy protection encoding, hence any HD material through a component connection can be recorded. But guess what? There is a bill (I have been told) being prepared that will require all manufacturers of STB's and all cable companies that purchase them to turn off the component outputs, just as they are doing with their Fire wire ports and it will likely be put to a vote, and in effect in a few years - as soon as the old HD TV's that had only component inputs are phased out. Simply put. What few choices we have left in making HD copies are in process of being shut down. New methods are not coming available.

So for all of you that think the new equipment is about to hit the market? I don't think it will happen.
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post #28 of 39 Old 09-28-2009, 07:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kckay View Post

The reason the major manufacturers will not produce STB Blu Ray recorders (to take the place of VCRs) for the USA market is because of the copy protection laws now in effect. It is not correct that the market for such equipment does not exist - as illustrated by the fact that this equipment is being sold all over the globe. Those US laws put the burden of eliminating illegally copied material on the manufacturers rather than on the law enforcement agencies. The laws hold the manufacturer liable for any illegal copies made on their equipment regardless of circumstance. Hence the manufacturers would need to place strong copy protection algorithms on all equipment sold here. And, since almost all of the major TV programs now being broadcast in HD are sent encoded, such equipment would be worthless for recording HD material.

So there are two major reasons IMO why Sony, Panasonic, Toshiba and all the rest will not invest in such equipment for sale here. One, because it would not sell because it couldn't record much of anything except video from your private video camera, and two, because all of the manufacturers have made the determination that legal consequences arising from the new laws would cost them dearly as they defend themselves against law suits that would arise as illegal methods are found to bypass the copy protection schemes shipped with the equipment. The manufacturers feel they would be held liable even though they had nothing to do with it, and the legal expenses would be overwhelming.

In short IMO our government has once again legislated in favor of big business (in this case the arts and media producers). They have effectively stopped a major sector of the illegal material on the market, but in doing so, they have also eliminated freedom of choice for the consumer. For those that think BluRay equipment will show up at the CES show in a few months - don't hold your breath. Any equipment that does appear will be equipment with heavy usage restrictions like the new JVC recorders that can only record via firewire ports. As we speak every cable company in the USA has now or will soon disable the firewire ports on their STB's for the reason that there is still equipment in operation, like the old DVCR's that can copy HD material via their firewire ports. For the very same reason JVC (the major DVCR manufacturer) will NEVER sell that product or any similar product again.

In fact every avenue that allows for the coping of HD material is being shut down. As an example, one popular and still legitimate method to make copies of HD material today is via the Hauppauge HD-PVR device in conjunction with a top end computer. This method makes use of the analog hole. The analog hole is the HD component output signal. An analog signal cannot transfer the new digital copy protection encoding, hence any HD material through a component connection can be recorded. But guess what? There is a bill (I have been told) being prepared that will require all manufacturers of STB's and all cable companies that purchase them to turn off the component outputs, just as they are doing with their Fire wire ports and it will likely be put to a vote, and in effect in a few years - as soon as the old HD TV's that had only component inputs are phased out. Simply put. What few choices we have left in making HD copies are in process of being shut down. New methods are not coming available.

So for all of you that think the new equipment is about to hit the market? I don't think it will happen.

There is at least one inaccuracy here -- there is no legal obligation for equipment manufacturers to recognize the so-called "broadcast flag", which means that programming broadcast over-the-air is effectively free from any copy protection.

Regarding the bill that you've been told is being developed -- unless someone can cite and link to a specific bill, I'd be rather skeptical. But, frankly, no bill is necessary -- HD analog outputs are going to slowly disappear as HDMI becomes the new standard because eliminating the DACs and wideband analog video outputs will result in cost savings in building consumer electronics products. That, not legislation, will drive the closing of the so-called analog hole. I can't say that I'm happy about that happening, but that does seem to be where things are heading...
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post #29 of 39 Old 09-29-2009, 02:05 PM
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Isnt it against the law for the cable companies to disable the firewire interfaces on their STB's?
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post #30 of 39 Old 09-29-2009, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas Desmond View Post

There is at least one inaccuracy here -- there is no legal obligation for equipment manufacturers to recognize the so-called "broadcast flag", which means that programming broadcast over-the-air is effectively free from any copy protection.

Regarding the bill that you've been told is being developed -- unless someone can cite and link to a specific bill, I'd be rather skeptical. But, frankly, no bill is necessary -- HD analog outputs are going to slowly disappear as HDMI becomes the new standard because eliminating the DACs and wideband analog video outputs will result in cost savings in building consumer electronics products. That, not legislation, will drive the closing of the so-called analog hole. I can't say that I'm happy about that happening, but that does seem to be where things are heading...

Isn't it a fact that even though not yet regulated more and more OTA broadcasts are copy protected? I am under the understanding that is the case, and, in the near future almost all broadcast will be encoded save the PBS channels. Eventually all will be. Even then, the vast amount of television is viewed via cable services. And IMO a much higher quality and greater amount of programing is found there. Most of which, if not all is encoded?

Links:

"Analog hole" legislation introduced circa 2005
http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2005/12/5797.ars

MPAA still trying to close the analog hole: circa Sept 09
http://www.engadgethd.com/2009/09/04...th-new-more-i/
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