TWC MoCA question/rant - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 39 Old 01-04-2010, 10:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Let me start off with the fact that I have always hated Cable, not just TWC, but Cable in general, and I have always dreamed of having satellite instead (until U-verse IPTV became available), yet the rest of my family was the complete opposite, they couldn't stand satellite and loved cable, so I was stuck with Cable my whole life, as I was always outnumbered, so the following just adds to my hatred of cable

Some time ago I started a thread about getting a new DVR from TWC after using the ClearQAM tuner in my HDTV for ages, and when I got it I noticed that there was an Ethernet port on the back (being that I was used to the SA DVRs, the fact that I got a Samsung DVR instead made me wonder), the when researching about the Samsung DVR, I heard about MoCA and the possibility of sending LAN traffic through Coax (here's a link to the thread http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...446&highlight= )

A while before I got the Samsung DVR, at a different location (we have a split family, long story), we signed up for U-verse IPTV service (we switched because of the price difference, and, to them, at least it wasn't satellite, as they believe in the rain fade myth), so during that time, I got my hands dirty with the U-verse setup, and fell in love with the Web Remote and THDVR features, so when I noticed that TWC's Samsung DVR had an Ethernet port and was MoCA capable (I would believe that would be the only reason TWC would want to switch from SA DVRs to Samsung DVRs, it's the only improved difference), I thought there would be a glimmer of hope that TWC is finally improving their horrid service

Now it's already 2010 and TWC STILL doesn't have a Web Remote (I am not sure about DVR sharing as we only have 2 boxes [both DVRs, one Samsung HD DVR and one SA SD DVR] in the house and only my new one is MoCA compliant), almost all other services ALREADY HAVE some form of Web Remote (I call it Web Remote as that is what AT&T calls it, and I don't know the proper name for it), DirecTV has had it for ages as long as you have broadband service to connect to their DVR, Dish Network came out with one a little after DirecTV I think (maybe before, not sure, I just know that Dish has one), U-verse has it obviously, and even Verizon FiOS, which once the fiber is connected to the ONT, it uses the same RF over Coax signal as Cable does, has a Web Remote, using the same MoCA feature that the Samsung DVR is capable of, so why is it taking TWC so long to come out with a simple Web Remote? (This question is rhetorical, the point is it shouldn't take this long, the answer is they are just plain lazy and greedy like they always have been, so they don't care, the real question I want an answer for is below)

So for the question out of this rant, I know that the feature(s) have to be implemented and tested before they are released to the general public, but if Verizon FiOS already supports MoCA and uses it for, among other things, a web remote, is TWC reinventing the wheel or something? Aren't they going to announce anything anytime soon?

Seems like something TWC would of thought of already if they want to compete with these other providers, especially U-verse (which I think is better anyway), instead of making these stupid attack ads like that U-verse doesn't have "Start Over", of course they don't have "Start Over" it's a stupid feature nobody uses
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post #2 of 39 Old 01-04-2010, 02:45 PM - Thread Starter
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post #3 of 39 Old 01-05-2010, 12:04 PM - Thread Starter
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So there's no word on when a feature almost every other provider already has will come to TWC?

Except for the MoCA feature, and maybe the fact that HDMI actually works, this DVR (Samsung SMT-H3270) is completely useless to me, I am willing to lose functionality (dual buffers, PiP, etc.) if it means gaining some other features, but if I'm just going to be losing features by using this DVR, I might as well just get an SA HD DVR
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post #4 of 39 Old 01-05-2010, 02:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Nobody? Is there at least some TWC dedicated forum somewhere where I can get information on upcoming TWC featuers?
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post #5 of 39 Old 01-05-2010, 03:26 PM
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All I know is that Multi Room DVR is coming out this year or next year. I have contacts with a TWC engineer but I don't think he is going to reveal that info. No I won't give out his name because I don't want to. The 3270 only has 1 buffer so yeah. Thats the point of ODN it supposed to be identical regardless of box. All these features are coming out but your division will deploy them at a later date. TWC is probably developing new versions with all your requested features but they need to test it to make sure it works and not deliver some buggy version that causes problems.
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post #6 of 39 Old 01-05-2010, 07:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdtvfan2005 View Post

All I know is that Multi Room DVR is coming out this year or next year. I have contacts with a TWC engineer but I don't think he is going to reveal that info. No I won't give out his name because I don't want to. The 3270 only has 1 buffer so yeah. Thats the point of ODN it supposed to be identical regardless of box. All these features are coming out but your division will deploy them at a later date. TWC is probably developing new versions with all your requested features but they need to test it to make sure it works and not deliver some buggy version that causes problems.

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All I know is that Multi Room DVR is coming out this year or next year.

Hopefully sometime this year, TWC is already behind as it is, pushing something like that to a year from now (2011) would not be a good move for them, at this point, DVR sharing is a software/firmware matter, being that the 3270's and 3260's already have support for MoCA, and the typical 1GHz cable splitter works fine as a MoCA hub (this can be proven by MoCA users that already use MoCA for a Coaxial networking connection, and by Verizon FiOS service), so all TWC would need to do is update Mystro for networking support and file/recording sharing, of course the firmware would need to be tested before it's released, but it shouldn't take that long to test, AT&T tests all their U-verse software updates before releasing them, and yet in the time it takes TWC to come out with one update, U-verse already released 5 or more updates, of course the technology is different (RF cable vs. IPTV), but the testing phase should take the same length of time, of course the release phase would probably take longer for TWC than U-verse as it is a different technology, so if it does take a year, it shows that TWC is definitely taking their time working on it


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Originally Posted by hdtvfan2005 View Post

I have contacts with a TWC engineer but I don't think he is going to reveal that info.

Well, I guess we can't force him to, though it would probably be a good idea if he did, keeping such things a secret from customers is not such a good idea, AT&T usually gives out their information and I find it nice to find out what and when something is coming out (or planning on coming out), part of the reason I hate TWC is how secretive they are until the month of release, then they over-advertise it, you may want to run an idea by him about having a dedicated forum (either official or unofficial, or both) for TWC, and don't worry, I won't ask for his name

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All these features are coming out but your division will deploy them at a later date.

I know about how it's deployed by division, the real question is when it will be release to the general public, that's when they start to release commercials for it so we know it's coming

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Originally Posted by hdtvfan2005 View Post

TWC is probably developing new versions with all your requested features but they need to test it to make sure it works and not deliver some buggy version that causes problems.

Like I said before, the DVR already supports MoCA, and I can easily buy a MoCA bridge and MoCA diplexer, and all the hardware is proven to work (no need for TWC to test the hardware), so that would mean that TWC just needs to make and test an update for the Mystro firmware (and if Verizon does it already, it can't be that hard for TWC to do), and it should take them no longer than 3 months to make the firmware update (6 months max, if they run into problems), then testing should only take 1 or 2 months before release (then there is a post-release test/beta period depending on division), I mean it's not like they are programming an OS or anything, so I don't think it should take a year for one firmware update
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post #7 of 39 Old 01-06-2010, 12:31 AM
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He does read the forums but I don't think he is allowed to post here.

Navigator/Mystro isn't the box's firmware. It's a program that runs on top of a middleware. There is an actual OS. I believe the Samsung DVR runs a variant of embedded linux with GPL and proprietary code. I still don't know when the next version of Navigator is going to come out. We did get a new version recently but it was just a bug fix version. I think maybe 2Q or 3Q 2010 4Q 2010 is pretty likely. Just hold on tight.

Once a division gets Navigator like San Diego it takes a while to get it deployed on to other divisions. They too test it and make sure it works and not have some buggy software that doesn't work. They're doing more than just MoCA. They have to add Keyword Search, Manual Recording, enhanced sports now, Copy to VCR, remote DVR programming, and Multi Room DVR so they have their hands full. The OS has to be enabled as well in order to get multi room DVR. I don't see any MoCA diagnostics yet but they'll be enabled in a future version.
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post #8 of 39 Old 01-07-2010, 12:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by hdtvfan2005 View Post

He does read the forums but I don't think he is allowed to post here.

Navigator/Mystro isn't the box's firmware. It's a program that runs on top of a middleware. There is an actual OS. I believe the Samsung DVR runs a variant of embedded linux with GPL and proprietary code. I still don't know when the next version of Navigator is going to come out. We did get a new version recently but it was just a bug fix version. I think maybe 2Q or 3Q 2010 4Q 2010 is pretty likely. Just hold on tight.

Once a division gets Navigator like San Diego it takes a while to get it deployed on to other divisions. They too test it and make sure it works and not have some buggy software that doesn't work. They're doing more than just MoCA. They have to add Keyword Search, Manual Recording, enhanced sports now, Copy to VCR, remote DVR programming, and Multi Room DVR so they have their hands full. The OS has to be enabled as well in order to get multi room DVR. I don't see any MoCA diagnostics yet but they'll be enabled in a future version.

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He does read the forums but I don't think he is allowed to post here.

I wasn't talking about him posting here, but instead the idea of starting a TWC dedicated forum, either an official one on the TWC website, or an unofficial one with it's own domain (or like I said before, maybe both), U-verse has 2 dedicated forums one official one on the AT&T website calledU-talk, and one unofficial one called U-verse Users, it would just be nice to have something similar for TWC, a nice place to get online help and learn about new features, the forums here on AVS forums are just too open and vague since it's based on AV as a whole and not just a specific topic

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Originally Posted by hdtvfam2005 View Post

Navigator/Mystro isn't the box's firmware. It's a program that runs on top of a middleware. There is an actual OS. I believe the Samsung DVR runs a variant of embedded linux with GPL and proprietary code.

Would a middleware be center point between firmware (software embedded in hardware/chip) and software? (i'll be honest, this is the first time I heard of the term middleware, and i'm in the field) I know that there is a proprietary version of a Linux OS on the 3270/3260 DVRs/STBs, I am not exactly sure what part of what is updated in a given update, though usually with most electronic devices other than a computer, most updates are firmware based, so even if it's a software based update, I still refer to it as a firmware update (I know, it's not technically accurate)

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I still don't know when the next version of Navigator is going to come out. We did get a new version recently but it was just a bug fix version. I think maybe 2Q or 3Q 2010 4Q 2010 is pretty likely. Just hold on tight.

I didn't know of the bug fixing update (though it was probably something that was unnoticeable), I sure hope that it comes out sometime between the second and third quarter of this year, and that's me being patient

What I don't get is what takes TWC so long to create, test, and release (to any division, just when it's at it's release phase) one update? Like I said, in the time it took TWC to come up with one update, U-verse came out with at least 5 updates, it seems to me that while AT&T was busy working on their other 4+ updates, TWC was just sitting around twiddling their thumbs


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Originally Posted by hdtvfan View Post

They're doing more than just MoCA. They have to add Keyword Search, Manual Recording, enhanced sports now, Copy to VCR, remote DVR programming, and Multi Room DVR so they have their hands full. The OS has to be enabled as well in order to get multi room DVR. I don't see any MoCA diagnostics yet but they'll be enabled in a future version.

I understand if they are doing a lot more than MoCA, but a lot of those other features should of been done a long time ago, some of them seem kind of pointless anyway

-Keyword Search-Don't we already have that? If I press Guide and "B" (Find Shows), I can type in the name of a show and it will display the show alphabetically closest to what you type in, if the keyword search feature is more for finding a show based on the show's info, then I classify it up there with "Start Over", a feature I will never use (not worth the update), I just can't find a show that way

-Manual Recording-Is this recording to the DVR or recording to an external resource? If this is a recording to a DVR, what would it do that we can't do now, time based recordings? If it's to record something from the DVR/STB to an external resource, what outputs/ports would be activated by it?

-Enhanced Sports Now-I know I am in the minority when I say this, but I have always hated sports, I just never had an interest in them, so that's not something i'm really eager for (not that i'm trying to say that they shouldn't be doing it or anything, but I think they should work on things they are behind on first though)

-Copy to VCR-Now I know that by VCR, they mean any resource that takes and records from the video output from the DVR, but still, who uses a VCR these days? I have my VCR across the room from my media center, sitting under my computer desk, just sitting around collecting dust, and even though it doesn't require a VCR, I would still think it would use the composite (yellow, red, and white cables) output only, I would much rather see the Firewire port activated for recording streaming to a PC, then burn those recordings to a BD-RE disc, plus anyway, shouldn't this feature already be out? This is a feature I would have expected in 2006 (or earlier)

The two last ones (DVR sharing and remote DVR programming) are the only two features that I am interested in
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post #9 of 39 Old 01-07-2010, 12:35 AM
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I can't directly answer your questions, but run on over to eBay and purchase two of the Actiontec MI424WR routers. These support MoCA, as described in http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1145636.

I ordered a pair of these and I am very pleased. Transfer rates are in the 70 Mbits/sec range for me. The device includes a 4 port switch, so you can add any wired devices that you want.
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post #10 of 39 Old 01-07-2010, 01:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikedamirault View Post

Would a middleware be center point between firmware (software embedded in hardware/chip) and software? (i'll be honest, this is the first time I heard of the term middleware, and i'm in the field) I know that there is a proprietary version of a Linux OS on the 3270/3260 DVRs/STBs, I am not exactly sure what part of what is updated in a given update, though usually with most electronic devices other than a computer, most updates are firmware based, so even if it's a software based update, I still refer to it as a firmware update (I know, it's not technically accurate)

Have you heard of tru2way?

The latest Samsung DVRs are tru2way devices. TWC is working on a single version of its software that runs on its own boxes, as well as upcoming tru2way TVs, STBs, and DVRs sold at retail. They have to worry about spec compatibility so their software runs correctly on other tru2way devices.

In the case of the Samsung DVRs, Samsung is responsible for the OS and drivers that support the box's hardware features. AFAIK, Samsung is also responsible for the OCAP stack and Java Virtual Machine. TWC is responsible for the Java middleware and software that runs on top of that.

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What I don't get is what takes TWC so long to create, test, and release (to any division, just when it's at it's release phase) one update? Like I said, in the time it took TWC to come up with one update, U-verse came out with at least 5 updates, it seems to me that while AT&T was busy working on their other 4+ updates, TWC was just sitting around twiddling their thumbs

I wouldn't worry so much about update frequency. There was a period when TWC released more regular ODN updates and there were a lot of bugs. Now TWC releases fewer updates, but they are more stable. U-Verse had its share of problems with its own updates, requiring further updates to address bugs.

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I understand if they are doing a lot more than MoCA, but a lot of those other features should of been done a long time ago, some of them seem kind of pointless anyway

Keep in mind that U-Verse uses the Microsoft Mediaroom IPTV software; Microsoft is responsible for most of the functionality you see on U-Verse. Much of the software and functionality on U-Verse now was available with the Microsoft's IPTV platform before that service even launched. It simply had to be ported to the U-Verse hardware.

TWC didn't have the benefit of pre-existing DVR software. Nor did they have 6+ years of DVR software experience (and code) like Microsoft. TWC started from scratch, and they've come a long way in a relatively short period of time.

As far as specific features, TWC would like to provide (restore) some of the functionality that was lost when it dropped the Passport software in favor of its own, in-house Navigator software. I believe hdtvfan mentioned some of those features.

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Originally Posted by mikedamirault View Post

Keyword Search-Don't we already have that? If I press Guide and "B" (Find Shows), I can type in the name of a show and it will display the show alphabetically closest to what you type in, if the keyword search feature is more for finding a show based on the show's info, then I classify it up there with "Start Over"

No. See this description of one such keyword search implementation. The Passport software offered a crude version of that functionality, but that was lost when TWC switched to Navigator.

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Originally Posted by mikedamirault View Post

-Manual Recording-Is this recording to the DVR or recording to an external resource? If this is a recording to a DVR, what would it do that we can't do now, time based recordings? If it's to record something from the DVR/STB to an external resource, what outputs/ports would be activated by it?

I would guess that he is referring to the ability to set a single or repeating recording for a certain channel at a certain time, much like a VCR.

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Originally Posted by mikedamirault View Post

-Copy to VCR-Now I know that by VCR, they mean any resource that takes and records from the video output from the DVR, but still, who uses a VCR these days? I have my VCR across the room from my media center, sitting under my computer desk, just sitting around collecting dust, and even though it doesn't require a VCR, I would still think it would use the composite (yellow, red, and white cables) output only,

The "Copy to VCR" option applies just as equally to DVD recorders. With this option on the older boxes, the user could watch liveTV or one recording via HDMI or component while sending a different recording through the composite and stereo connections to a VCR or DVD recorder.

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I would much rather see the Firewire port activated for recording streaming to a PC, then burn those recordings to a BD-RE disc, plus anyway, shouldn't this feature already be out? This is a feature I would have expected in 2006 (or earlier)

That won't happen due to content protection concerns. TWC flags most of their program as content as "copy one generation" (CCI=0x02), so any device recording through Firewire would need to support 5C encryption. No PCs support 5C encryption.

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The two last ones (DVR sharing and remote DVR programming) are the only two features that I am interested in

Many TWC customers have had such features for years with third-party DVRs and/or Windows Media Center. With U-Verse, you can't use third-party DVRs or Windows Media Center (yet); you can only use their boxes. Yesterday, Microsoft did announce its intention to support U-Verse service on the Xbox360.
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post #11 of 39 Old 01-07-2010, 09:50 AM
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Copy to VCR is a SARA feature that allows you to copy recordings to a VCR and/or DVD recorder. Makes archiving SDTV really easy as you don't have to do it in real time. TWC had plans to make this a revenue maker as it could someday be able to record pay VOD movies in addition to the fee you pay for that particular movie. I'm sure it will be DRM encoded and encrypted. I don't think it will likely do that though. TWC has to add SARA and Passport features and it could very well take a while for multi room DVR. They have to add the missing Passport and SARA features first then Multi room DVR though it's in the pipeline.
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post #12 of 39 Old 01-07-2010, 01:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

Have you heard of tru2way?

The latest Samsung DVRs are tru2way devices. TWC is working on a single version of its software that runs on its own boxes, as well as upcoming tru2way TVs, STBs, and DVRs sold at retail. They have to worry about spec compatibility so their software runs correctly on other tru2way devices.

Yes, I have heard of Tru2Way, it was used to give SDV compatibility to CableCARD based DVRs (allowing us to request a "channel" to be sent through a dedicated SDV channel to save bandwidth and allow for more digital/HD content), this, along with the encryption used on all other digital non-SDV based channels (except for the locals) is half the reason I got a DVR in the first place (the other half was to have the possibility to record my shows, hence the reason I have a DVR and not an STB), SDV made my ClearQAM tuner useless (and is just another way for TWC to make more money off of STB and DVR rentals, even though it does mean more HD), as far as I am aware (at least for the Samsung DVRs), Tru2Way works just fine

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Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

In the case of the Samsung DVRs, Samsung is responsible for the OS and drivers that support the box's hardware features. AFAIK, Samsung is also responsible for the OCAP stack and Java Virtual Machine. TWC is responsible for the Java middleware and software that runs on top of that.

Okay, but don't the required updates need to happen in the middleware, or do they need to go through Samsung in order to complete the updates? It would seem to me that Samsung would give the DVRs and STBs completely unlocked (allowing all possible features of the boxes), then it would be based on what TWC plans to do with the middleware, and they would block anything they wanted to block from there, am I right in thinking that? It just seems kind of stupid to me for an electronics manufacturer (Samsung), to lock everything on their DVR until requested to be unlocked by the provider using their hardware (TWC)

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I wouldn't worry so much about update frequency. There was a period when TWC released more regular ODN updates and there were a lot of bugs. Now TWC releases fewer updates, but they are more stable. U-Verse had its share of problems with its own updates, requiring further updates to address bugs.

Can you explain the problems that U-verse had in their updates? I have seen many updates for U-verse recently (CallerID on TV, PPV coupon feature, different phases of the THDVR shared DVR feature, VDSL2, the possibility of a 1SD/3HD profile, faster internet speeds, etc.), none of which I have seen had any problems whatsoever (except for the occasional distance based corruption issue), who knows, maybe i'm just lucky, and i'm just not as lucky with TWC, but so far in my experience, U-verse updates have been quick and reliable (unlike my experience with TWC, which is slow and unreliable), I must say TWC didn't waste time implementing metered billing for their Road Runner ISP though, even though it didn't go through (luckily)

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Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

Keep in mind that U-Verse uses the Microsoft Mediaroom IPTV software; Microsoft is responsible for most of the functionality you see on U-Verse. Much of the software and functionality on U-Verse now was available with the Microsoft's IPTV platform before that service even launched. It simply had to be ported to the U-Verse hardware.

This is where TWC messed up, of course Aptive didn't make it any easier for TWC to come out with updates, but at least they did a better job at making the software then TWC ever did with Mystro/Navigator, the fact that U-verse uses Windows CE as the OS on their DVRs and STBs opens up a lot of possibilities for U-verse, and since Microsoft Mediaroom (pretty much just a fancy name for a proprietary version of Windows Media Center) was released with all the features it will ever have (a lot of amazing features at that), if TWC doesn't catch up soon, they will lose a lot of customers in areas where U-verse is available

I understand that AT&T U-verse and TWC are way different, I was just using U-verse as an example as I have used it, I know how it works, and in my experience is leaps and bounds better than TWC (TWC looks like OTA compared to U-verse, I mean, TWC has a better HD picture and everything, but with the lack of almost everything, it's almost pointless compared to U-verse), and if TWC plans on getting customers like me, they better catch up, as you can see in some parts of my posts above, I also compare TWC to FiOS, as once the fiber is terminated at the ONT, it's basically a cable service from there, just like TWC, so if Verizon can do something, TWC can do the exact same thing, and like I said, Verizon already has these features, so there's no excuse for TWC to be this behind, and the funny thing is I don't even like Verizon, but they are still doing better than TWC

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Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

TWC didn't have the benefit of pre-existing DVR software. Nor did they have 6+ years of DVR software experience (and code) like Microsoft. TWC started from scratch, and they've come a long way in a relatively short period of time.

They did when they got their software from Aptive, if you ask me, despite the fact they would probably get nowhere if it wasn't for them to stop using Passport, I personally think they made a huge mistake in doing so, it does open them up to new features and everything without having to get another company involved, but it's apparent that TWC did a sloppy job doing so, they could definitely use the help of a company making one for them again

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Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

As far as specific features, TWC would like to provide (restore) some of the functionality that was lost when it dropped the Passport software in favor of its own, in-house Navigator software. I believe hdtvfan mentioned some of those features.

I do agree with this and everything, but those features should of been the first features they thought of before releasing Mystro/Navigator, that is why people hated Mystro/Navigator when it came out, they come out with a new software update promising newer and better features, and in the process releasing a horrible barebones update, then taking years (yes, years) to bring everything back, and this is exactly what is putting them behind

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Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

No. See this description of one such keyword search implementation. The Passport software offered a crude version of that functionality, but that was lost when TWC switched to Navigator.

So I am guessing keyword search would be something like if you put in something like NHL, you would get a list of different NHL hockey games or something, or if you type in something like an actor's name, it would come up with movies with those actors in it, am I right? I'm not saying that is a bad feature or anything, but I don't see myself (or many people I know) that would really use that feature unless we wanted to see a movie or TV show with a particular person in it (and that doesn't happen very often), so it's a feature that I would have to put with Start Over, another one of TWCs unused features


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Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

I would guess that he is referring to the ability to set a single or repeating recording for a certain channel at a certain time, much like a VCR.

This is kind of what I thought, but why not just select a show to record? I have never seen myself going "Hmm, I want to record from 10:00PM to 11:00PM on NBC", instead I think "Hmm, I want to record The Jay Leno Show", if you wanted to get a snippet of a show (like let's say a segment of The Doctors about where they talk about expired medicine), or if you wanted to record a certain commercial block for a certain commercial, then I would understand that, but most of the time, I would much rather record a show by title straight from the EPG, I guess it would be a good idea if the guide was wrong, but that's a different story

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Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

The "Copy to VCR" option applies just as equally to DVD recorders. With this option on the older boxes, the user could watch liveTV or one recording via HDMI or component while sending a different recording through the composite and stereo connections to a VCR or DVD recorder.

That is what I am saying, by "any resource that takes and records from the video output from the DVR", I mean a computer with a capture card, a VCR, a DVD recorder, etc., but what I am saying is that I would think that by VCR, they mean "controlled output over Composite output #2", Composite output only supports 480i, why would a company like TWC focus on a feature that is limited to output in 480i? It's 2010, you can't even go to an electronics store and buy an SDTV anymore, all new televisions sold today support at least 720p, why are we belittling our HDTVs to SD material? With the slow release of HD channels, and now releasing support for exporting SD material, what does TWC have against HD? But who knows, probably because all of the HD I have been watching, I have turned into an HD snob and expect everything to be in HD, this is why I was wondering about the Firewire cable thing, at least if we can output our recordings through HDMI, Component, or Firewire, at least we can record in the proper HD resolution and burn that to a Blu-Ray disc and have it properly be in HD like it was meant to be

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Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

That won't happen due to content protection concerns. TWC flags most of their program as content as "copy one generation" (CCI=0x02), so any device recording through Firewire would need to support 5C encryption. No PCs support 5C encryption.

I understand that, but what I was saying is that "Record to VCR" is completely useless (read comment above), this is 2010, HD is commonplace these days, why would TWC be working on a feature that is this outdated? I would much rather like to see a "Record to D-Theater tape" or "Record to Blu-Ray" option, let's keep up with the times, SD is old news

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Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

Many TWC customers have had such features for years with third-party DVRs and/or Windows Media Center. With U-Verse, you can't use third-party DVRs or Windows Media Center (yet); you can only use their boxes. Yesterday, Microsoft did announce its intention to support U-Verse service on the Xbox360.

First off, you CAN use third party DVRs with U-verse, look through uverseusers.com, there are plenty U-verse customers that have a TiVo hooked up to their Motorola and Cisco boxes right now, and they are working just fine, but they are the old series 1 and 2 TiVos that don't support HD, the new TiVo HD models (which I believe are series 3 and up) are CableCARD only, so what prevents them from working with U-verse is there is no way to connect the TiVo to an STB of any kind, so IF TiVo were to create an HD DVR that could piggyback off of an STB like they used to, they would be just as compatible with U-verse

As for using Windows Media Center as a DVR...

1. you still need a CableCARD, and you need a Tru2Way compatible tuner PCI-E card with CableCARD slot, and a dimwitted TWC contractor (a cable installer that does not work for the cable company the install for) to come out to, among damaging everything on your cable network (trust me, I know a cable installer, they have no idea what they are doing), to marry the CableCARD to the computer (TWC will not allow you to install your own CableCARD yourself for this reason, as they have to be configured by a "professional")

2. Call them an HTPC if you want, that doesn't keep them from being a full fledged power sucking, loud noise making (unless liquid cooled), space taking computer, as an HTPC is still a PC, and all that entails (nice at first, then becomes a pain)

3. Expensive, a computer per TV? I think i'll pass

4. Did I mention a dimwitted cable installer is required to install the CableCARD?

As for third party DVRs, I could take that path (actually, I would enjoy having a TiVo instead, they are one of the best DVRs I have ever seen), time by time I just stare at the DVR wondering if I should get a TiVo, but it's not the best idea for me, and based on what TWC does to TiVos (or at least what I hear), it would be just at much of a nightmare as keeping this DVR

1. I would have to pay full price for a DVR, then pay monthly (to TiVo, and TWC) for service

2. Those dimwitted installers don't just throw in that CableCARD and leave, they go through the settings and disable features, like the wishlist feature just to name one

3. You need a tuning adapter, I am not exactly sure what it does, but I think it has something to do with SDV compatibility (gives Tru2Way support maybe?), i'm not sure, though there may be a rental charge tacked onto that adapter

4. There has to be a TiVo on every TV for the shared DVR function to work (not that I really care, as it's only the web remote feature I am looking forward to, though I would like the idea of a shared DVR), thats a purchase of a TiVo per TV, then the monthly charge per each TiVo, then the possible monthly charge per tuning adapter, and that costs more per month then if TWC were to enable their MoCA feature

5. I am not sure if the TiVo is compatible with MoCA, but I am betting it's not, so either each given room would need to be wired with CAT5, or a rigged MoCA network would need to be created (instead of the coax just going straight to the tuning adapter, then to the TiVo, it will have to be connected to a MoCA bridge first, then the tuning adapter, then finally to the TiVo, that's a lot of coax jumpers/short cables), and that's per TV location, then you need one near the router and cable modem to connect the MoCA network to the internet for the remote web scheduling to work, where with the Samsung DVR, all I need is one MoCA bridge and one MoCA diplexer, and it's done

6. Put #4 and #5 together, if you can afford all of that, then you probably work at a job that is taking up all the time you would be spending watching TV, either that or you have one nice job (and I would be envious of it) as all of that together is horribly expensive
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post #13 of 39 Old 01-07-2010, 02:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by hdtvfan2005 View Post

Copy to VCR is a SARA feature that allows you to copy recordings to a VCR and/or DVD recorder. Makes archiving SDTV really easy as you don't have to do it in real time. TWC had plans to make this a revenue maker as it could someday be able to record pay VOD movies in addition to the fee you pay for that particular movie. I'm sure it will be DRM encoded and encrypted. I don't think it will likely do that though. TWC has to add SARA and Passport features and it could very well take a while for multi room DVR. They have to add the missing Passport and SARA features first then Multi room DVR though it's in the pipeline.

Exactly, but what about where it really counts, HD resolutions? I mean I know that this would be a great feature for SD boxes to back up our shows and stuff, but with HD being commonplace now, it won't be very long before we decide to copy over HD shows and forget about SD completely

SARA must have been deployed in areas where Passport and Passport Echo wasn't, I have had digital cable since it came out and we always had Passport
(well, it started with Passport, then passport Echo, then to Mystro/Navigator)
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Originally Posted by avekevin View Post

I can't directly answer your questions, but run on over to eBay and purchase two of the Actiontec MI424WR routers. These support MoCA, as described in http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1145636.

I ordered a pair of these and I am very pleased. Transfer rates are in the 70 Mbits/sec range for me. The device includes a 4 port switch, so you can add any wired devices that you want.

Right, I know about the Actiontec routers (they are the routers Verizon uses for FiOS service), I like the Linksys router I have now though, and would much rather just use a MoCA bridge when the time is right

I know what to do hardware wise, that's the easy part, the problem is the software on the DVR needs to be updated to allow communications from the internet, and TWC's website needs to be updated with the online DVR access, so far there is no change to the website, and there is no change to the DVR's software, web DVR access wise that is
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Originally Posted by mikedamirault View Post

I like the Linksys router I have now though, and would much rather just use a MoCA bridge when the time is right

No need to change your router. The Actiontecs can be configured in bridge mode, behind your firewall of choice. Because of the small MAC table, they don't make great routers anyway.
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No need to change your router. The Actiontecs can be configured in bridge mode, behind your firewall of choice. Because of the small MAC table, they don't make great routers anyway.

But why get a router when I can get the same functionality from a MoCA bridge anyway? It's just as easy for me to get a MoCA bridge, and there's no configuration to worry about

Plus anyway, like I said, I can take care of the hardware myself, that was not why I started this thread, the reason why I started this thread was because I can easily get all the required hardware online and get it set up, but I can't do the software related side of things (that is TWC's job), so now I have to play the waiting game until Mystro is updated to allow it and they add DVR access to the TWC website, but I have a feeling that TWC has their priorities out of order, and these features won't come out as soon as they should
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Originally Posted by mikedamirault View Post

But why get a router when I can get the same functionality from a MoCA bridge anyway? It's just as easy for me to get a MoCA bridge, and there's no configuration to worry about

Plus anyway, like I said, I can take care of the hardware myself, that was not why I started this thread, the reason why I started this thread was because I can easily get all the required hardware online and get it set up, but I can't do the software related side of things (that is TWC's job), so now I have to play the waiting game until Mystro is updated to allow it and they add DVR access to the TWC website, but I have a feeling that TWC has their priorities out of order, and these features won't come out as soon as they should

It sounded like your original DVR choice was based partly on the need to have MoCA functionality. Splitting it out into seperate components will give you a lot more flexibility in the DVRs.

The main difference is cost. I spent about 1/4 as much money on a pair of the Verizon devices as I would have for the Netgear bridge ($50 vs $200) for no difference in functionality. The config was a 30 minute job - no big deal.
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It sounded like your original DVR choice was based partly on the need to have MoCA functionality. Splitting it out into seperate components will give you a lot more flexibility in the DVRs.

The main difference is cost. I spent about 1/4 as much money on a pair of the Verizon devices as I would have for the Netgear bridge ($50 vs $200) for no difference in functionality. The config was a 30 minute job - no big deal.

Half of the reason you are finding the Actiontec MoCA routers cheaper than MoCA bridges is because the Actiontec MoCA routers you found are used

In most cases, people sign up for Verizon FiOS just for the internet service, and despite the fact they only order internet service, the installer still gives them an Actiontec MoCA router as that is what they have on hand (I belieive Verizon gives these out for free as part of their service), then the FiOS customer goes out and buys their own router, then they have the Actiontec MoCA router just sitting there collecting dust, so instead of just letting it sit there, since they got it for free anyway, they are better off selling it and getting a couple bucks off of it instead of just letting it sit around

You buy that same router new, and you would pay just as much if not more for it than you would a MoCA bridge

But problem is, being that you are buying a used/pre-owned device off of a site like Ebay, you never know how the previous owner treated it before giving it to you, I could probably get a MoCA bridge on Ebay for just as cheap


But my point to starting this thread is that I could easily get a MoCA bridge or one of those Actiontec MoCA routers, but even if I get one and connect it, it's not going to make TWC release those features any sooner, so I will still have to wait the same length of time as I would if I didn't buy one, so I would much rather wait until TWC releases those features, then I will go out and get one, the question is, when will it happen?
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@ hdtvfan2005-Run that dedicated forum idea by that guy and tell me what he thinks, I'm curious to see what he thinks (about a TWC dedicated forum that is)
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Originally Posted by mikedamirault View Post

Yes, I have heard of Tru2Way, it was used to give SDV compatibility to CableCARD based DVRs (allowing us to request a "channel" to be sent through a dedicated SDV channel to save bandwidth and allow for more digital/HD content)

Erm, no, tru2way *is not* used by UDCR CableCARD DVRs - primarily because they are unidirectional (i.e., they don't have the hardware to transmit to the headend). The so-called "tuning adapters" are used as a workaround for that.

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1. you still need a CableCARD, and you need a Tru2Way compatible tuner PCI-E card with CableCARD slot

There's currently no such thing as a "tru2way compatible tuner card". It's all about the software, and at least in the consumer space, they're not yet providing such stuff (they could, and I believe at the cable tradeshow last year, an example of such a thing was shown).

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Originally Posted by mikedamirault View Post

and a dimwitted TWC contractor (a cable installer that does not work for the cable company the install for) to come out to, among damaging everything on your cable network (trust me, I know a cable installer, they have no idea what they are doing), to marry the CableCARD to the computer (TWC will not allow you to install your own CableCARD yourself for this reason, as they have to be configured by a "professional")

While I was still on TWC, the tech was at least better than the techs I have to deal with with my current cableco (Knology). The guy I was dealing with was at least somewhat familiar, and was willing to step out of the way and let me do what I needed to, and wasn't whining and complaining the whole time. Admittedly, experiences may vary on this front.

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Originally Posted by mikedamirault View Post

3. Expensive, a computer per TV? I think i'll pass

Get an XBox 360; you can stream recordings to it from Windows Media Center. Yeah, it still consumes a fair amount of power, but it's still less than a full blown PC. Also, it supports Netflix, XBL movies, and of course, games. Heck, maybe you even have a 360 already?

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As for third party DVRs, I could take that path (actually, I would enjoy having a TiVo instead, they are one of the best DVRs I have ever seen), time by time I just stare at the DVR wondering if I should get a TiVo, but it's not the best idea for me, and based on what TWC does to TiVos (or at least what I hear), it would be just at much of a nightmare as keeping this DVR

1. I would have to pay full price for a DVR, then pay monthly (to TiVo, and TWC) for service

And? You have to decide if the (IMO) better DVR is worth the extra money. So far I've not seen a cableco DVR I'd consider worthwhile, certainly not better than what TiVo or Moxi or even WMC can do.

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2. Those dimwitted installers don't just throw in that CableCARD and leave, they go through the settings and disable features, like the wishlist feature just to name one

On a TiVo? Um, the installers I've dealt with wouldn't know what to do with a TiVo, even if you handed them the manual. They certainly weren't touching any settings on mine (and why would you let them?). It's customer owned equipment, so they want to mess with it as little as possible. Besides, how would you disable "the wishlist feature"? There's not a checkbox to turn it off, so unless someone was indiscriminately deleting your wishlists, that's totally nonsensical.

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Originally Posted by mikedamirault View Post

3. You need a tuning adapter, I am not exactly sure what it does, but I think it has something to do with SDV compatibility (gives Tru2Way support maybe?), i'm not sure, though there may be a rental charge tacked onto that adapter

It doesn't "give tru2way support", but yes, it's to provide access to the SDV feature set. If your provider uses SDV, then yes, that's likely a must. Far as I know, all providers have agreed not to charge any additional fees for the tuning adapter boxes (since CableLabs and friends didn't want their asses handed to them by the FCC for being too difficult and antagonistic about the whole CableCARD situation).

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4. There has to be a TiVo on every TV for the shared DVR function to work (not that I really care, as it's only the web remote feature I am looking forward to, though I would like the idea of a shared DVR), thats a purchase of a TiVo per TV, then the monthly charge per each TiVo, then the possible monthly charge per tuning adapter, and that costs more per month then if TWC were to enable their MoCA feature

I suppose you could get a Moxi and a Moxi Mate, which just streams recordings from the Moxi box, instead of needing a whole separate DVR. They have packages with the Moxi box and 1 or 2 Mates. Also, there's no monthly fee for the guide service (though, I do have my concerns about that).

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5. I am not sure if the TiVo is compatible with MoCA, but I am betting it's not, so either each given room would need to be wired with CAT5, or a rigged MoCA network would need to be created (instead of the coax just going straight to the tuning adapter, then to the TiVo, it will have to be connected to a MoCA bridge first, then the tuning adapter, then finally to the TiVo, that's a lot of coax jumpers/short cables), and that's per TV location, then you need one near the router and cable modem to connect the MoCA network to the internet for the remote web scheduling to work, where with the Samsung DVR, all I need is one MoCA bridge and one MoCA diplexer, and it's done

No, TiVo does not currently support MoCA, but yes, a MoCA bridge device can easily be attached to remedy that; besides, you'll probably have multiple devices in your HT (TV, Blu-Ray player, video game console) that you'll want hooked up to the network; if you have MoCA anyway, you'd have to have such a bridge device anyway, and you can connect them all with a simple Ethernet switch.
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post #21 of 39 Old 01-12-2010, 02:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Erm, no, tru2way *is not* used by UDCR CableCARD DVRs - primarily because they are unidirectional (i.e., they don't have the hardware to transmit to the headend). The so-called "tuning adapters" are used as a workaround for that.

I never said Tru2Way allows UDCP hardware to handle 2 way communications, what I said is it gives the 2 way communications to hardware that would otherwise be UDCP

The point is, Tru2Way was used to give the 2 way communication functionality to CableCARD based hardware that would otherwise be UDCP, therefore being completely useless to SDV programming (unless that given hardware has a USB port and compatibility for a tuning adapter), Tru2Way, among many other features, allows SDV programming without the use of a tuning adapter

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There's currently no such thing as a "tru2way compatible tuner card". It's all about the software, and at least in the consumer space, they're not yet providing such stuff (they could, and I believe at the cable tradeshow last year, an example of such a thing was shown).

Okay then, how about this? A QAM compatible 2 directional tuner card and a CableCARD are required, and proper Tru2Way software needs to be installed, is that better?

The point is the tuner card and other HTPC hardware/software must support SDV in order to get SDV based channels, otherwise I wouldn't be able to get the programming I want

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While I was still on TWC, the tech was at least better than the techs I have to deal with with my current cableco (Knology). The guy I was dealing with was at least somewhat familiar, and was willing to step out of the way and let me do what I needed to, and wasn't whining and complaining the whole time. Admittedly, experiences may vary on this front.

Consider yourself lucky, I can't count the times I have gotten incorrect information from them (one of them actually told me that digital channels were sent through the braid of the coax, which isn't true, they are sent through the copper core just like analog channels), they have messed up an order (When ordering HD service and a CableCARD, they came out with an SD STB, I had to explain to my stepfather that he wasn't watching HD, we ended up dropping the CableCARD idea and just getting a DVR so we could record, this was before he dropped TWC for U-verse), and whenever a cable installer came to do repairs and I wasn't home to watch it, the installer ended up doing more damage to the cable network than good

And like I said, I personally know a person that installs for TWC, and knowing him personally, no company with any quality control would hire him, and I wouldn't let him touch anything I own, not to mention, I ended up having to set up something up for him that he couldn't get to work, OFFERED BY TWC, which is his job to set up to begin with, so if he can't even properly set up a device that he is supposed to set up for a living, you know there is a problem

Ever since, I have done all my own work I can do on my own, just because I can't trust those installers doing anything

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Get an XBox 360; you can stream recordings to it from Windows Media Center. Yeah, it still consumes a fair amount of power, but it's still less than a full blown PC. Also, it supports Netflix, XBL movies, and of course, games. Heck, maybe you even have a 360 already?

This would mean somewhere in the house, I would need some sort of "media server" (a computer dedicated to media sharing and), with a tuner, a CableCARD, and needs SDV compatibility, then I would need to stream from that computer to the Xbox, it's just too much work, and would make it that much harder to watch the programming I like to watch

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And? You have to decide if the (IMO) better DVR is worth the extra money. So far I've not seen a cableco DVR I'd consider worthwhile, certainly not better than what TiVo or Moxi or even WMC can do.

I didn't say TiVo wasn't better (like I said, the TiVo has to be one of the best DVRs I have ever seen), but I am lucky to get the Samsung DVR I have now, I can't afford the price of a TiVo, otherwise I would of gotten one a long time ago, the DVRs that the cableco's use are horrible, I agree, but they cost way less than getting a TiVo, one of the reasons I went with this POS

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On a TiVo? Um, the installers I've dealt with wouldn't know what to do with a TiVo, even if you handed them the manual. They certainly weren't touching any settings on mine (and why would you let them?). It's customer owned equipment, so they want to mess with it as little as possible. Besides, how would you disable "the wishlist feature"? There's not a checkbox to turn it off, so unless someone was indiscriminately deleting your wishlists, that's totally nonsensical.

I heard of a TiVo install someone had that they ended up not liking (I think they ended up switching to U-verse), where while getting their TiVo set up (which requires one of their installers, I had a horrible experience with them), the installer went in and changed the guys TiVo settings, and one of the things they did was disable the Wishlist feature

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Originally Posted by demonfoo View Post

It doesn't "give tru2way support", but yes, it's to provide access to the SDV feature set. If your provider uses SDV, then yes, that's likely a must. Far as I know, all providers have agreed not to charge any additional fees for the tuning adapter boxes (since CableLabs and friends didn't want their asses handed to them by the FCC for being too difficult and antagonistic about the whole CableCARD situation).

I was close enough, I would probably still need an installer to come over to connect it, I am not letting any installer touch anything in my media center

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Originally Posted by demonfoo View Post

I suppose you could get a Moxi and a Moxi Mate, which just streams recordings from the Moxi box, instead of needing a whole separate DVR. They have packages with the Moxi box and 1 or 2 Mates. Also, there's no monthly fee for the guide service (though, I do have my concerns about that).

Here's the problem (which you must have missed), I only have 1 HD DVR, there are only 2 TVs in the house connected to any type of cable box, and the other DVR is an SD DVR, and therefore doesn't support HD channels, if I were to get a Moxi DVR, I would have to drop my HD DVR, connect the Moxi DVR to the to the SD DVR, point is, I need MY OWN DVR, not a device to share a different DVR (and does MOXI support a web remote?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by demonfoo View Post

No, TiVo does not currently support MoCA, but yes, a MoCA bridge device can easily be attached to remedy that; besides, you'll probably have multiple devices in your HT (TV, Blu-Ray player, video game console) that you'll want hooked up to the network; if you have MoCA anyway, you'd have to have such a bridge device anyway, and you can connect them all with a simple Ethernet switch.

FYI, I have a PS3 and Wii, that's it (I have an Xbox 360 at a different location), both of which are connected wirelessly (I am not trusting a wireless connection on a TiVo)



The point is (which will not change no matter what), is that it is too much work, and too expensive to use a TiVo or a HTPC, it would be a lot easier and cost effective if TWC just makes a software update to Mystro/Navigator and puts remote DVR scheduling support on their website, and that since a majority of all the other providers already support remote DVR scheduling, and Verizon, which operates a lot like cable, already uses MoCA, among other things, for remote web scheduling, so it shouldn't take TWC that long to come out with such a simple feature
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Here's the problem (which you must have missed), I only have 1 HD DVR, there are only 2 TVs in the house connected to any type of cable box, and the other DVR is an SD DVR, and therefore doesn't support HD channels, if I were to get a Moxi DVR, I would have to drop my HD DVR, connect the Moxi DVR to the to the SD DVR, point is, I need MY OWN DVR, not a device to share a different DVR (and does MOXI support a web remote?)

You would probably be giving up your cableco DVR no matter what. The Moxi wouldn't interoperate with anything but the Moxi Mate boxes. The Moxi is a standalone DVR (which uses an M-Card, and supports the SDV tuning adapters now). And yes, the Moxi does have Internet-based scheduling functionality.

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Originally Posted by mikedamirault View Post

The point is (which will not change no matter what), is that it is too much work, and too expensive to use a TiVo or a HTPC, it would be a lot easier and cost effective if TWC just makes a software update to Mystro/Navigator and puts remote DVR scheduling support on their website, and that since a majority of all the other providers already support remote DVR scheduling, and Verizon, which operates a lot like cable, already uses MoCA, among other things, for remote web scheduling, so it shouldn't take TWC that long to come out with such a simple feature

Well, their DVRs shouldn't be so terrible either, but they are. You can (a) sit on your hands and hope against hope that Time-Warner will give you what you want (I'm guessing it's going to be a long, long wait), or (b) you can seek out other alternatives. I was just trying to point out that there are some that can provide the functionality you're asking for. I'm sure it's not the be-all, end-all, but until cablecos actually begin giving a rat's pink, fuzzy butt what customers actually want (a few do, but most don't, while paying lip-service to what they say customers really want), those are your choices.
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You would probably be giving up your cableco DVR no matter what. The Moxi wouldn't interoperate with anything but the Moxi Mate boxes. The Moxi is a standalone DVR (which uses an M-Card, and supports the SDV tuning adapters now). And yes, the Moxi does have Internet-based scheduling functionality.

I would have to give up my DVR for a third party DVR anyway, and it seems like an installer would have to come to install the M-Card anyway (though the MOXI DVR does seem nice)

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Well, their DVRs shouldn't be so terrible either, but they are. You can (a) sit on your hands and hope against hope that Time-Warner will give you what you want (I'm guessing it's going to be a long, long wait), or (b) you can seek out other alternatives. I was just trying to point out that there are some that can provide the functionality you're asking for. I'm sure it's not the be-all, end-all, but until cablecos actually begin giving a rat's pink, fuzzy butt what customers actually want (a few do, but most don't, while paying lip-service to what they say customers really want), those are your choices.

I know my other options, and I agree that either a third party DVR or THPC would be a better idea in my case, (and who knows, the MOXI DVR does seem promising, as I hear there is no service fee), but it would take a lot more money and work on my part in order to switch to a third party DVR, plus I don't want to deal with an installer

If I had my way, I would forget about cable altogether and switch to either DirecTV or AT&T U-verse (both of which are leaps and bounds better than any cable company), both of which already have remote DVR scheduling (not to mention an app for the iPhone and iPod touch)

I just find it funny that TWC isn't jumping on the opportunity, doesn't the lack of updates (not just DVR sharing and remote DVR scheduling, but updates in general) make them loose customers?
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Originally Posted by mikedamirault View Post

Okay then, how about this? A QAM compatible 2 directional tuner card and a CableCARD are required, and proper Tru2Way software needs to be installed, is that better?

CableCard tuners are only certified for PC use by Windows 7 Media Center, which lacks support for tru2way.

No existing or upcoming [in 2010] PC CableCard tuners can support tru2way with future software, because Microsoft only supports OCUR, and CableLabs' expressly forbids inclusion of functional two-way hardware with OCUR products. The Ceton and HDHomerun CableCard products announced at CES do not have the hardware to support tru2way. They require a tuning adapter from TWC to support SDV.

As part of their licensing agreement, CableLabs' also limits what CE and PC OEMs can do with their tru2way products. As an example, CE and PC solutions can't integrate Internet content when tru2way capabilities are used. Cable companies don't want Internet content competing with the services they provide.

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Originally Posted by mikedamirault View Post

This would mean somewhere in the house, I would need some sort of "media server" (a computer dedicated to media sharing and), with a tuner, a CableCARD, and needs SDV compatibility, then I would need to stream from that computer to the Xbox, it's just too much work, and would make it that much harder to watch the programming I like to watch

For a Windows 7 Media Center setup, you'd get one 4-tuner Ceton CableCard PCIe card ($399 by 3/31), plus one M-CARD and two USB SDV tuning adapters from Time Warner. You would connect the PC and a MoCA adapter to your existing router, or you'd replace your existing router with a $30 Actiontec MI-424WR or Westell 9100EM MoCA router from ebay. Then you'd place one MoCA adapter and Xbox360 (refurbished $150) in those rooms where you want to view liveTV, the EPG, and recorded programs. Every Xbox360 (up to 4) can view a separate liveTV channel with an EPG, schedule recordings, manage recordings, and play recordings.

Moxi is another alternative, but it is limited to two tuners with the Cisco SDV tuning adapter. You would have 1-2 MoxiMate extenders in other rooms, networked like the Xbox360s in the previous setup. Each MoxiMate extender can view a different liveTV channel or recording, streamed from the Moxi DVR elsewhere in your home.

Like TiVo, Moxi allows you to setup recordings remotely via the web. Windows Media Center does not yet provide that functionality.

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Originally Posted by mikedamirault View Post

Here's the problem (which you must have missed), I only have 1 HD DVR, there are only 2 TVs in the house connected to any type of cable box, and the other DVR is an SD DVR, and therefore doesn't support HD channels, if I were to get a Moxi DVR, I would have to drop my HD DVR, connect the Moxi DVR to the to the SD DVR, point is, I need MY OWN DVR, not a device to share a different DVR (and does MOXI support a web remote?)

The Moxi doesn't connect to another DVR or STB. It replaces the cable company DVR. Like the TivoHD, it's a standalone HDTV DVR with built-in digital cable tuners. Like TiVo, it has a USB port on the back for the TWC SDV tuning adapter. It streams HD recordings and [soon] liveTV to MoxiMate extenders elsewhere in your home, which can be set to output either SD or HD. These extenders replace the remaining cable boxes in your home.

The Moxi, TiVo w/ lifetime, and Windows Media Center all eliminate your STB and DVR fees. Time Warner may charge a $1-$3/fee for the CableCard, but there is no charge for the SDV tuning adapters that connect to the DVR/PC.

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Originally Posted by mikedamirault View Post

The point is (which will not change no matter what), is that it is too much work, and too expensive to use a TiVo or a HTPC,

It may be expensive, but the network setup can be done in 15 minutes or less. You simply unplug the coax from the existing cable box, plug it into the MoCA adapter, then connect the ethernet and coax outputs on the back of the MoCA adapter to the DVR/extender/Xbox360. It is plug and play; there are no settings to configure with MoCA.

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Originally Posted by mikedamirault View Post

it would be a lot easier and cost effective if TWC just makes a software update to Mystro/Navigator and puts remote DVR scheduling support on their website, and that since a majority of all the other providers already support remote DVR scheduling, and Verizon, which operates a lot like cable, already uses MoCA, among other things, for remote web scheduling, so it shouldn't take TWC that long to come out with such a simple feature

It would be easier for you, but not easier for them. You greatly underestimate the R&D and infrastructure necessary make remote scheduling a reality for millions of TWC and Brighthouse customers.

Verizon FiOS and U-Verse use more centralized systems very different from most cable operators. Like many operators, TWC has separate divisions whose systems have their own head-end infrastructure, equipment, lineup, and software versions. For the most part, all FiOS and U-Verse systems use the same lineup (except locals/RSNs), infrastructure equipment, set-top boxes, and software.

Being newer systems, AT&T and U-Verse deployed boxes with MoCA and Internet connectivity from day one, which made it much easier for them to support remote scheduling, MRV, and other services. With FiOS, every TV customer has both an ONT and an Internet router with MoCA support, through which every STB and DVR has a network connection. With U-Verse, Microsoft did all client and server software work for remote scheduling, so AT&T only had to setup and configure the appropriate servers with that software.
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Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

CableCard tuners are only certified for PC use by Windows 7 Media Center, which lacks support for tru2way.

No existing or upcoming [in 2010] PC CableCard tuners can support tru2way with future software, because Microsoft only supports OCUR, and CableLabs' expressly forbids inclusion of functional two-way hardware with OCUR products. The Ceton and HDHomerun CableCard products announced at CES do not have the hardware to support tru2way. They require a tuning adapter from TWC to support SDV.

As part of their licensing agreement, CableLabs' also limits what CE and PC OEMs can do with their tru2way products. As an example, CE and PC solutions can't integrate Internet content when tru2way capabilities are used. Cable companies don't want Internet content competing with the services they provide.

For a Windows 7 Media Center setup, you'd get one 4-tuner Ceton CableCard PCIe card ($399 by 3/31), plus one M-CARD and two USB SDV tuning adapters from Time Warner. You would connect the PC and a MoCA adapter to your existing router, or you'd replace your existing router with a $30 Actiontec MI-424WR or Westell 9100EM MoCA router from ebay. Then you'd place one MoCA adapter and Xbox360 (refurbished $150) in those rooms where you want to view liveTV, the EPG, and recorded programs. Every Xbox360 (up to 4) can view a separate liveTV channel with an EPG, schedule recordings, manage recordings, and play recordings.

This would take a HTPC out of the question, since computers aren't capable of supporting SDV based channels would make using a HTPC totally useless, most of the programming I like to watch is all SDV based, therefore by using a HTPC as my DVR, I would lose channels in the process

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Moxi is another alternative, but it is limited to two tuners with the Cisco SDV tuning adapter. You would have 1-2 MoxiMate extenders in other rooms, networked like the Xbox360s in the previous setup. Each MoxiMate extender can view a different liveTV channel or recording, streamed from the Moxi DVR elsewhere in your home.

Like TiVo, Moxi allows you to setup recordings remotely from the EPG on their web site. Windows Media Center does not yet provide that functionality.

Being that I am the only person recording shows on this DVR (everybody else is fine with the SA SD DVR downstairs), there is no need for more than 2 tuners (2 buffers would be nice, the 1 buffer is quite annoying, but 2 tuners is enough for me, I don't need 4), since the HD DVR only serves one room (there is only 1 HDTV in the house anyway), there would be no need for a MoxyMate (Well, it would be nice to throw on my bedroom TV, though it's not required, I am perfectly fine with basic cable in there), how much is the Moxi DVR? And am I able to to take it into TWC to have the M-Card installed? (like I said, there is no way I am allowing them to touch my media center), also, what features will be dropped that TWC does have? (like CallerID on TV and call history, On Demand, etc.)

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Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

The Moxi doesn't connect to another DVR or STB. It replaces the cable company DVR. Like the TivoHD, it's a standalone HDTV DVR with built-in digital cable tuners. Like TiVo, it has a USB port on the back for the TWC SDV tuning adapter. It streams HD recordings and [soon] liveTV to MoxiMate extenders elsewhere in your home, which can be set to output either SD or HD. These extenders replace the remaining cable boxes in your home.

Like I said above, I shouldn't need the MoxiMate boxes, the DVR itself is all I need

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Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

The Moxi, TiVo w/ lifetime, and Windows Media Center all eliminate your STB and DVR fees. Time Warner may charge a $1-$3/fee for the CableCard, but there is no charge for the SDV tuning adapters that connect to the DVR/PC.

The price does seem good overall (for the Moxi DVR) and the $3/mo CableCARD fee does seem nice (better than the $16/mo we are paying), though there are some features that TWC does have that I do like (read above), so if the Moxi DVR does support that, then it may be a good deal

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Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

It may be expensive, but the network setup can be done in 15 minutes or less. You simply unplug the coax from the existing cable box, plug it into the MoCA adapter, then connect the ethernet and coax outputs on the back of the MoCA adapter to the DVR/extender/Xbox360. It's plug and play; there are no settings to configure.

The Moxi DVR seems affordable I guess, and it seems pretty easy to connect


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Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

It would be easier for you, but not easier for them. You greatly underestimate the R&D and infrastructure necessary make remote scheduling a reality for millions of TWC and Brighthouse customers.

Verizon FiOS and U-Verse use more centralized systems that are not comparable to the setups of most cable operators. Like many operators, TWC has separate divisions whose systems have their own head-end infrastructure, equipment, lineup, and software versions. For the most part, all FiOS and U-Verse systems use the same lineup (except locals/RSNs), infrastructure equipment, set-top boxes, and software.

I get that TWC has local headends, unlike U-verse, Verizon FiOS, DirecTV, and Dish Network that have national headends, and I get that because of that, the way the update data is sent is different, and therefore it would take TWC longer to distribute than those other providers, and I get that the lineup is different (though this makes no difference on the possibility of remote DVR scheduling, as you have to put in your zip code anyway to get your local lineup), though they are slowly coming up with a universal lineup (not quite there yet, but it's closer), but as for the equipment and software, it is generally the same nationwide, the majority of TWC and Brighthouse customers use Mystro/Navigator (nationwide), and in the areas that Mystro isn't used, those given areas use I-Guide (which seems to be outright awful, though I have never used it), and for hardware, it's usually Motorola (surfboard cable modems), Scientific Atlanta/Cisco, Pioneer, and Samsung (DVRs and STBs), and the Samsung DVR seems to be the standard DVR now being released nationwide, the only thing that seems to be holding them back is the fact that they have local headends, and the update needs to be sent to the headend first before being released, but usually around that time, they start advertising it

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Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

Being newer systems, AT&T and U-Verse also designed their boxes with Internet connectivity from day one, which made it much easier to support remote scheduling and other web services. With FiOS, every TV customer has both an ONT and an Internet router that supports MoCA, through which every DVR has an Internet connection. With U-Verse, Microsoft did all client and server software work for remote scheduling, so AT&T only had to setup and configure the appropriate servers with that software.

First, AT&T and U-verse is the same thing, U-verse is a service hosted by AT&T (sorry, but you make it seem like two different companies)

I get that U-verse is different than cable, U-verse is IPTV (internet/network based) while cable is RF through coaxial cable, I was never relating the two that way, I was simply pointing out that AT&T is offering more (and almost has everything I ever wanted in a television service), and TWC is falling way behind, and AT&T happens to be more appealing to me because of it, and because of it, people are switching from TWC to U-verse at an alarming rate (as soon as a VRAD gets put up, they almost immediately get customers that sign up for it), and very few switch (I have heard people that hate their U-verse service, but they don't want to switch back due to the features they get that TWC and other cable companies don't support)

As for FiOS, like I have said hundreds of times already, once the fiber hits the ONT, it is RF over coax just like TWC, and TWC can use those Actiontec MoCA routers just as much as FiOS can, TWC is fully capable of MoCA already, and a lot of people already use it, heck, this Samsung DVR supports it (hence the reason I started this thread to begin with), it's just that the required software is not on the DVRs, and the website doesn't have web DVR scheduling, it may take a while to release, and I understand that, but the software FiOS uses for remote DVR scheduling should be pretty similar to what TWC needs to create (of course there are some differences as it needs to run on different software), so like I said before, if FiOS DVRs can support remote DVR scheduling so can TWC's DVRs
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Jeff Unatis who works for TWC CNY says Navigator will definitely get remote DVR scheduling but no time frame is given. San Diego will be upgrading the ODN boxes to a new version which will give it some fixes and possibly some new features.
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Jeff Unatis who works for TWC CNY says Navigator will definitely get remote DVR scheduling but no time frame is given. San Diego will be upgrading the ODN boxes to a new version which will give it some fixes and possibly some new features.

Alright, sounds good, guess i'll just wait it out and see
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I've heard rumors of TWC deploying Cisco 8642HDC's with a 500 GB HDD. The 8642HDC has MoCA and mutli room capabilities.

The remote DVR app will be a part of the new myServices portal so you'll need a TW account in order to use it.
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I've heard rumors of TWC deploying Cisco 8642HDC's with a 500 GB HDD. The 8642HDC has MoCA and mutli room capabilities.

The remote DVR app will be a part of the new myServices portal so you'll need a TW account in order to use it.

Interesting, I personally think that TWC released the Samsung DVRs too early anyway

I would expect there to be an account for DVR access, does it require a Road Runner email address, or does it have it's own separate "myServices only" account?
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Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

It would be easier for you, but not easier for them. You greatly underestimate the R&D and infrastructure necessary make remote scheduling a reality for millions of TWC and Brighthouse customers.

Verizon FiOS and U-Verse use more centralized systems that are not comparable to the setups of most cable operators. Like many operators, TWC has separate divisions whose systems have their own head-end infrastructure, equipment, lineup, and software versions. For the most part, all FiOS and U-Verse systems use the same lineup (except locals/RSNs), infrastructure equipment, set-top boxes, and software.

Being newer systems, AT&T and U-Verse deployed boxes with MoCA and Internet connectivity from day one, which made it much easier for them to support remote scheduling, MRV, and other services. With FiOS, every TV customer has both an ONT and an Internet router with MoCA support, through which every STB and DVR has a network connection. With U-Verse, Microsoft did all client and server software work for remote scheduling, so AT&T only had to setup and configure the appropriate servers with that software.

After rereading bfdtv's post (just decided to randomly check the thread again), I noticed some incorrect information in the post

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Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

Verizon FiOS and U-Verse use more centralized systems that are not comparable to the setups of most cable operators. Like many operators, TWC has separate divisions whose systems have their own head-end infrastructure, equipment, lineup, and software versions. For the most part, all FiOS and U-Verse systems use the same lineup (except locals/RSNs), infrastructure equipment, set-top boxes, and software.

Last I checked, Verizon has a region based channel lineup just like cable, you can't check the lineup on their website without typing in a zip code of an area serviced by Verizon, except for the fact that FiOS uses RFoG (Radio Frequency over Glass) to the house/ONT instead of RF over Coax, and the fact that FiOS is a direct connection from the CO to the house/ONT(not shared), Verizon FiOS is no different than TWC or any other cable company

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Being newer systems, AT&T and U-Verse deployed boxes with MoCA and Internet connectivity from day one, which made it much easier for them to support remote scheduling, MRV, and other services.

AT&T never used MoCA on U-verse, they use HPNA over Coax, and that is only if CAT5 cant be or is harder to be used in a certain location (CAT5 is used on most U-verse installs), being that U-verse is IPTV, it does have a lot more advantages over Cable like Web Remote and shared DVR, but being that the Samsung DVR has network support, it's just a software issue



Since my last post, I have heard that Cablevision (Optimum's iO Digital Cable service owned by Cablevision), a 100% RF over Coax based cable company just like TWC, already has a Web Remote and DVR sharing
http://www.cablevision.com/
http://www.optimum.net/
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