Seems to be a market for HD component to IEEE-1394 encoders. - AVS Forum
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Old 03-08-2002, 11:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Seems like there is nothing illegal about this under the DMCA since the content is analog being digitized and it provides a path to permit fair use copying of HD material. With the current number of potential customers, it would be a boutique item, but then again, I could see a small company thumbing noses at the MPAA to make current HDTVs less susceptible to obsolesence.

Might be expensive, but what isn't.

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Old 03-08-2002, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by kelliot
Seems like there is nothing illegal about this under the DMCA since the content is analog being digitized and it provides a path to permit fair use copying of HD material. With the current number of potential customers, it would be a boutique item, but then again, I could see a small company thumbing noses at the MPAA to make current HDTVs less susceptible to obsolesence.
Sounds like a fun project.

This would involve a real time MPEG2 encoder. Still, if you were working at 28MB/s as the JBC 30000U can, it might not be all that hard to do a good real time encode.

Yeah, it could be expensive :)

Cheers!
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Old 03-08-2002, 12:19 PM
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They do make the real time MPEG2encoders. They are the ATSC encoders that all TV stations going to DTV use. They cost about $100K. Getting from the DVB or ASI MPEG2 stream to 1394 is another box which JVC has but is limiting it's sale to professional users with verified approved uses.

Our company has one of these 1394 convertors to record on the JVC decks and it took several letters from our studio clients to get it. That's not directly because of the MPAA, it's JVC's decision and it makes sense. They are worried any unauthorized recording may compromise the whole DVHS project. If the studios see a security hole, they simply won't release content on DVHS. Then why buy machines - end of product?

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Old 03-08-2002, 11:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Glimmie
They do make the real time MPEG2encoders. They are the ATSC encoders that all TV stations going to DTV use. They cost about $100K.
So they sell a $1000 machine for $100000. Nice profit margin as well. I say $1000 because I doubt if it costs more than $500 at the Si level.

I wonder whats under the hood of your $100000 machine?

How fast of a PC is needed to do the MPEG encoding if un-encoded partially compressed data is sent by Firewire?

I'm not suggesting that its an easy project, I wouldn't do it, but there are entrepeneurs out there.

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Old 03-09-2002, 12:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by kelliot


So they sell a $1000 machine for $100000.
Software Intellectual Property does not come for free.

The smaller the number of units you make, the more the software costs per unit...

Cheers!
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Old 03-09-2002, 04:16 AM
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How about doing it offline?

Capture the uncompressed video/audio with a pc (lots of hard drive space, I know). Then encode "leisurely" in software. Playback with a HIPIX, or output over firewire to D-VHS tape.
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Old 03-09-2002, 08:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Buffering and quasi-realtime would be better. No one like to do it twice. The bottom line is that D-VHS is doing it and the chip set exists. It should be doable in hardware for the fraction of the price of a DVHS recorder.

It just takes a little bit of Si, knowledge of the data stream, a developer outside the sphere of influence of the MPAA, and of course, money.

Whether it uses D-VHS or not, I don't care, just let us put on a hard disk or HD-DVD, compress it with some non-proprietary CODEC or whatever. It can then be stored in the best way. A double-sded DVD-RAM for final storage wouldn't be that bad.

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Old 03-09-2002, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Capture the uncompressed video/audio with a pc (lots of hard drive space, I know)
Can't do it with a computer. The bandwidth required to capture uncompressed HD in real time is too large for PCI slots (and way too large for hard drives). Unless someone develops a 66MHz, 64bit PCI card that is. But then again not too many motherboards support 64bit, 66MHz PCI. So we are stuck until the computer industry gets rid of the slow PCI. :cool:

There is also no way to pump that much data in real time to the hard drive, so you're back to square one, where you have to have a real time MPEG2 encoder on the 64bit 66MHz PCI card in order for your hard drive to keep up.

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Old 03-09-2002, 12:40 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't seriously expect anyone on this forum to build one. My main point is that it should be completely legal under current law.

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Old 03-09-2002, 12:50 PM
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Leszek,

Have you seen this one for the Mac? Would it work?

Digital Voodoo Introduces D1 Desktop 128HD

"The D1 Desktop 128HDâ„¢ offers full uncompressed HDTV support as well as standard definition formats for amazing flexibility both now and in the future. In addition to full HDTV support, the D1 Desktop 128HDâ„¢ features true uncompressed 10 bit video capture and playback with 6 channels of AES/EBU digital audio"

"The main benefit of HDTV is quality, and D1 Desktop 128HDâ„¢ builds on this with true 10 bit uncompressed video to disk"

List price under $10,000 I think.

There is also the Zaxel capture card. They claim reduced disk storage of 2/3 or more due to lossless compression during the capture.

Joe
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Old 03-09-2002, 01:20 PM
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Hey Joe:

Who's the babalicious in your graphics avatar? Kinda looks like Jennifer Connelly....

HDTV Early Adopter
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Old 03-09-2002, 01:25 PM
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Cool. Notice that the cards are 64bit PCI. What interests me is the claims they make. They clearly state that the capture has 1.485 Gbit/second data rate, which comes out to 1485/8 or 186 Megabytes/sec. The fastest hard drive today can barely achieve 40 Megabytes/sec and the average 7200rpm drive is about 20 Megabytes/sec. So they have to do 10:1 compression. I somehow don't belive that this is lossless.
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Old 03-09-2002, 01:36 PM
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Leszek,

I think they're using SCSI RAID, but don't know for sure. The Zaxel mentions "less expensive disk drives" but no specifics. Anyway, they're not completely out of reach.

Rick,

Never asked her name:)

Joe
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Old 03-10-2002, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by kelliot
Seems like there is nothing illegal about this under the DMCA since the content is analog being digitized and it provides a path to permit fair use copying of HD material. With the current number of potential customers, it would be a boutique item, but then again, I could see a small company thumbing noses at the MPAA to make current HDTVs less susceptible to obsolesence.

Might be expensive, but what isn't.
Seems likely it would be covered by the Supreme Court's Betamax decision also.
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Old 03-10-2002, 02:58 PM
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Actually, I'd be very happy if someone had an RGB to RF modulated 8VSB component. This would allow me to feed my DirecTV box output into the RF input of my Net Command Mits TV and through to the fire wired connection of my Mits HD VHS recorder. Can't find one. Not sure it exists at the consumer level.
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Old 03-10-2002, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by leszek1

Can't do it with a computer. The bandwidth required to capture uncompressed HD in real time is too large for PCI slots (and way too large for hard drives). Unless someone develops a 66MHz, 64bit PCI card that is. But then again not too many motherboards support 64bit, 66MHz PCI. So we are stuck until the computer industry gets rid of the slow PCI. :cool:

There is also no way to pump that much data in real time to the hard drive, so you're back to square one, where you have to have a real time MPEG2 encoder on the 64bit 66MHz PCI card in order for your hard drive to keep up.

Leszek
Oh yes you can and we do. Both a PCI buss and MAC G4 can process uncompressed HD in reak time. A SCSI RAID can easily keep up with it. We have several systems in both MAC and PC platforms that process HDTV in real time.

PCI HDTV interfaces:

Pinnecal, AJA, Video Pump, to name three and there are a few more.

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Old 03-10-2002, 09:51 PM
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Once you get into 64bit PCI and SCSI raid arrays that's another story. However I still do not thing that it is any *easy* job for a SCSI raid array to keep up. Remember we're talking 180+ MB/sec and the fastest SCSI raid array I know off (Dell, 10 RAID 0, Cheetach 15K RPM disks) can only handle 80MB/sec, so you still have to have compression in real time.
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Old 03-10-2002, 10:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by leszek1
so you still have to have compression in real time.
No, it's uncompressed. We www.laserpacific.com have two systems.

1) Mac G4 running Final Cut Pro with Pinnecal interface

2) Avid Symphoney on P4 with Ciprico raids.

We also have several SGI based systems but these are in a different class altogether.

The PCbased systems are no match for the hardware based systems but for the price, they do very well. In fact they are a threat to our high end business.

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Old 03-11-2002, 12:25 AM
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Glimmie,

The entire thread is about capture and processing of HD signals, not PAL/NTSC. The products you mention seem to only deal with SD signals whose bandwith requirements are 1/8 those of HD.
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Old 03-11-2002, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by leszek1
Glimmie,

The entire thread is about capture and processing of HD signals, not PAL/NTSC. The products you mention seem to only deal with SD signals whose bandwith requirements are 1/8 those of HD.
The devices I mentioned ARE HDTV SMPTE 292 interface. Yes, they also do SDTV. Based on a previous post I don't thinkl you are familiar with professional equipment. You mentioned a Dell RAID array. Dell is THE LAST place I would look when specifying a RAID array. There is a whole other world beyond PC magazine.

As you are new to this forum you need to knoww it's not all consumers here. Some members of this forum are industry professionals.

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Old 03-11-2002, 12:02 PM
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Maybe I'm missing something, but I see no support for HD on the Avid Symphony's web site
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Old 03-11-2002, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by leszek1
Maybe I'm missing something, but I see no support for HD on the Avid Symphony's web site
My mistake. I got the models confused. It's the Avid DS. We run both DS and Symphony on the same platform by switching the drive arrays.

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Old 03-11-2002, 12:20 PM
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Looking at the Avid DS web site in the I/O section, it seems to me that it only uses about 1/4 of the HD resolution when saving to disk:

Quote:
Avid|DS HD Offline mode allows for real-time HD offline at one-quarter resolution*

*Dependent on specific hardware configuration
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Old 03-11-2002, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by leszek1
Looking at the Avid DS web site in the I/O section, it seems to me that it only uses about 1/4 of the HD resolution when saving to disk:

You need to understand the post production process. "offline" is a lower quality signal used to build the story and make edit decisions. Since it's not the final product, considerable disk savings and render time for effects can be realized. Once the project is locked in, it is re-output in full rez HDTV. AS a typical one hour show is shot 7:1, there is a lot of material to keep on line. The classic Avid line always had various quality setting compromising disk capacity against picture quality.

You seem intent to prove that realtime uncompressed HDTV on PC's and Mac's is not possible. What is your point? It is possible and done in numerous places every day in Hollywood. We do it along with several competitors. In fact there are more desktop systems doing HDTV than full blown edit suites that cost 7 figures in HDTV.

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Old 03-11-2002, 12:34 PM
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I'm not trying to prove you wrong. I'm just trying to understand the technology better. The simple fact is that real time HD requires 180MB+/sec. One needs to somehow stuff that through a computer and onto a disk. All I want to know is how this is done. (especially since most hard drives max out at 20MB/sec and 32bit PCI slots max out at about 100MB/sec with 133MB/sec being the theoretical max for 32bit PCI).

Thanks,
Leszek
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Old 03-11-2002, 01:02 PM
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The data is striped across multiple drives. Early uncompressed SDTV disk recorders, circa 1990, actually recorded 1 bit per drive. A ten bit machine woiuld have 11 drives (last for error correction). Today even SDTV requires striped drives for uncompressed. Typical systems use a four way stripe, Yodd, Yeven, pR, Pb. HDTV uses a mininum 6 way stripe, Yodd D0-D4, Yodd D5-D9, Yeven D0-D4, Yeven D5-D9, pBodd, pBeven.

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Old 03-11-2002, 02:00 PM
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Thanks! So the data is never changed to RGB. Is the format 4:2:0 then?

This helps a lot.:)

Leszek
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Old 03-11-2002, 02:13 PM
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Sounds like an expensive drive setup.

Glimmie,

I saw on your web site you guys do "Sopranos" for HBO. I have a potentially dumb question. How come you use only part of the 19.4 Mb/sec bandwidth for the MPEG2 video and audio encoding? Wouldn't the quality improve if it was encoded at a higher rate?

Thanks,
Joe
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Old 03-11-2002, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by leszek1
Thanks! So the data is never changed to RGB. Is the format 4:2:0 then?

This helps a lot.:)

Leszek
The I/O format is 422 both in HDTV and SDTV. Some systems work RGB internally, mosly for graphics. There are 444 systems in SDTV but have limited use mainly from telecine chanis to color correction systems. 444 is too expensive to archive on.

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Old 03-11-2002, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jamoka
Sounds like an expensive drive setup.

Glimmie,

I saw on your web site you guys do "Sopranos" for HBO. I have a potentially dumb question. How come you use only part of the 19.4 Mb/sec bandwidth for the MPEG2 video and audio encoding? Wouldn't the quality improve if it was encoded at a higher rate?

Thanks,
Joe
No, we don't actually do the post production or film transfer. That is done by Encore Video another high end HDTV facility. We have the contract for the DVD mastering. That is presently at SDTV DVD compression rates which is 10mbs max.

I do know the show like all other HDTV shows on the air is delivered to HBO at full bandwidth. Now to be accurate, it's still compressed as no one is using an uncompessed HDTV tape format for distribution, it's just too expensive. There are two primary high end HDTV tape formats. HDCAM by Sony and HDD5 by Panasonic. I beleive the Soprano's is delivered on HDD5 which has a slight edge over HDCAM as it's less compression.

We do master to DVHS for show daily viewing tapes. That is done at 17mps beacuse the 19.4 encompasses all the overhead needed to send the data. The most video data any ATSC signal can have is 17mbs. Now we are testing the new JVC DVHS at 28mbs. And we also record HDTV to special disk machines for kiosk use. This can be up to 50mbs.

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