Channel Master CM-7000PAL HD DVR - AKA Dish DTVPal - Page 9 - AVS Forum
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post #241 of 734 Old 05-13-2011, 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Aleron Ives View Post

You said that TiVo offers a fee-less DVR because you can pay the whole cost up front, but that "whole cost" isn't just for the DVR itself . . .

Look, what you are writing is irrelevant because you are hung up on the TiVo subscription model which is just a purchase option. Go back and read my post #236.

A PalDVR costs $350. That is the price you pay for a complete hardware/software solution in a box. You pay the price once, take it out of the box and use it for as long as it lasts without ever paying another nickel for the service it provides you. If it breaks, there is no expectation that your initial purchase should entitle you to pay less than the market price for a new one any more than you would if it were your TV, your AVR or your microwave oven.

A TiVo costs $700. That is the price you pay for a complete hardware/software solution in a box. You pay the price once, take it out of the box and use it for as long as it lasts without ever paying another nickel for the service it provides you. If it breaks, there is no expectation that your initial purchase should entitle you to pay less than the market price for a new one any more than you would if it were your TV, your AVR or your microwave oven.

Do you get it now? A TiVo costs 2X the price of a Pal DVR and for that price you get a high-end unit that provides functionality way beyond the Pal DVR. If you don't like the price of a TiVo; don't need or want to pay for the additional functionality -- I accept that, no explanation necessary and I won't argue a bit. But don't drag out the tired old straw dog of the dreaded TiVo monthly fees, as if that were the only way one could purchase a TiVo, to make TiVo sound bad and evil because it costs a lot more. The monthly fee model is a purchase option for people who want a TiVo but don't want to (or can't) pony up the $700 purchase price.

To the rest of the thread, I'm done with this exchange. Sorry for the OT excursion.

- kelson h

The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine

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post #242 of 734 Old 05-15-2011, 12:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

To the rest of the thread, I'm done with this exchange.

Thank god for that.

Also to the rest of this thread, don't listen to what this clown is saying. Comparing the CM700PAL/DTVPal DVR to any Tivo product is just like comparing apples and oranges. He doesn't seem to grasp that Tivo has a subscription model but our devices don't. Don't rely on this guy for your (mis)information.

I stole your sig.
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post #243 of 734 Old 05-15-2011, 04:47 AM
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Originally Posted by dbsc View Post

Thank god for that.

Also to the rest of this thread, don't listen to what this clown is saying. Comparing the CM700PAL/DTVPal DVR to any Tivo product is just like comparing apples and oranges. He doesn't seem to grasp that Tivo has a subscription model but our devices don't. Don't rely on this guy for your (mis)information.

Not to be rude and jump in here, but the Tivo offers a subscription model as 1 of 2 purchase options.

Kinda like buying a car, sure you can pay it all off at once (like the CM or DTVPAL models) and the total outlay you pay will usually be less. The Tivo offers this option of a 1 time payment for lifetime service. No further cash will be spent by you for Tivo service.

Or you can pay less initially (lease or fiance) but your total overall cost will be greater. Like the Tivo offers with their subscription model.

The reason we bought the CM or DTVPAL is we choose the lower cost of ownership rather then the greater frills / higher cost of the Tivo. Why do I drive a Nissan rather then a Mercedes or Lexus, same reason.
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post #244 of 734 Old 05-15-2011, 05:59 AM
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$500 million paid to TiVo by Dish Network and EchoStar to settle lawsuit
http://www.htlounge.net/art/15532/50...e-lawsuit.html


Appeals court to hear EchoStar, TiVo patent fight again
http://news.cnet.com/8301-31021_3-20005031-260.html


So on the 12th they reach an agreement and on the 14th it's on again?
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post #245 of 734 Old 05-15-2011, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by phildaant View Post

Yeah, but very expensive though when I last checked years ago. Or did the prices fall recently? :/

Prices for Tivo hardware have dropped considerably...of course, it's the old gotcha! If you get a TIVO Premiere for under $100 at Amazon (and elsewhere), you cannot even get a lifetime subscription - you must pay $20/month! - They want to make back that money they lost selling a DVR for under $100.

And by reading some of the user reviews about Tivo's product on Amazon, it looks like they have the same kind of software glitches that you can expect with the CM-7000 or Dish PAL DVR.
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post #246 of 734 Old 05-15-2011, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by gary-in-dc View Post

Prices for Tivo hardware have dropped considerably...of course, it's the old gotcha! If you get a TIVO Premiere for under $100 at Amazon (and elsewhere), you cannot even get a lifetime subscription - you must pay $20/month! - They want to make back that money they lost selling a DVR for under $100.

Wow, how lame. Oh well sticking with computers, DTV Pal DVR, etc. I hope something new comes out that don't require subscriptions and can use OTA.
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post #247 of 734 Old 05-15-2011, 02:47 PM
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FYI, Amazon and Crutchfield have the CM-7000pal for under $300 today. If you go with Crutchfield, look online for the $20 promotion coupon. Never bought from Crutchfield, just noticed it's on sale again.
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post #248 of 734 Old 05-15-2011, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by LuvMyDVR33 View Post

Look up a few posts from this and see what mabuttra replied to me. The update is for firmware, NOT the guide, therefore it should be disabled as there is not going to be new firmware.

You're incorrect. It was downloading the guide. It does this due to DST being on. It gets confused & thinks your trying to manually download the guide instead of letting it do it at the time you set, mine now being at 4AM. It even stated it was updating the guide.

I don't have the firmware updating at all, don't even have the IP set up. I haven't even set it up to download firmware. No Ethernet connected either.
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post #249 of 734 Old 05-15-2011, 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by TalkingRat View Post

FYI, Amazon and Crutchfield have the CM-7000pal for under $300 today. If you go with Crutchfield, look online for the $20 promotion coupon. Never bought from Crutchfield, just noticed it's on sale again.

This is even better:
Open box direct from channelmaster, $289.99 w/free shipping.
And if you use the coupon code "shopcmstore", on the order form, that will bring the price down to $260.99 w/free shipping.
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post #250 of 734 Old 05-16-2011, 09:58 AM
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Thanks, Joel. I'm trying hard not to spend money. Given Pal's reputation for freezing, I'm not sure $19 makes up for the risk of an open box lemon. Getting it from CM may improve the odds that it's been checked out, but it's still had an extra round trip of being tossed around by the shippers.
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post #251 of 734 Old 05-16-2011, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by TalkingRat View Post

Thanks, Joel. I'm trying hard not to spend money. Given Pal's reputation for freezing, I'm not sure $19 makes up for the risk of an open box lemon. Getting it from CM may improve the odds that it's been checked out, but it's still had an extra round trip of being tossed around by the shippers.

Nothing is guaranteed to be free of defects and you have no idea how many times anything has been shipped places or mishandled. I got a NEW DTV Pal in December and it died within 3 months. Since there is no warranty from Dish, I would have been SOL if I hadn't warrantied with Sq Trade.
I bought a refurbed CM after that, and it had major random reboots I couldn't live with. But CM was awesome to me. They shipped me another refurb and a return label, so all I had to do was call FedEx to pick up the broken one. The replacement, even tho a refurb, has been great.
Best thing you can do is buy an additional warranty no matter where you buy the unit from. Then you can rest easy for 3 years.
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post #252 of 734 Old 05-16-2011, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by joel27nc View Post

You're incorrect. It was downloading the guide. It does this due to DST being on. It gets confused & thinks your trying to manually download the guide instead of letting it do it at the time you set, mine now being at 4AM. It even stated it was updating the guide.

I don't have the firmware updating at all, don't even have the IP set up. I haven't even set it up to download firmware. No Ethernet connected either.

That is the PSIP guide that downloads when it says downloading guide. It is not the TVGOS guide. TVGOS listing data is sent out for 25 minutes, 8 times a day at very specific times. If you disable updates, you'll see that the TVGOS guide data still downloads, proving that isn't what that time setting is for. The purpose of the updates is to give it a time to go out to the internet and search for a firmware upgrade. Since you don't have it connected to the internet, there is no point in having updates enabled.

Mark
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post #253 of 734 Old 05-16-2011, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by TalkingRat View Post

Thanks, Joel. I'm trying hard not to spend money. Given Pal's reputation for freezing, I'm not sure $19 makes up for the risk of an open box lemon. Getting it from CM may improve the odds that it's been checked out, but it's still had an extra round trip of being tossed around by the shippers.

I have bought an open box purchase. I love the box & it's performing great. I had a few issues, but the CM support has guided me threw it all. I haven't had any issues with my DVR since.
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post #254 of 734 Old 05-16-2011, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by mabuttra View Post

That is the PSIP guide that downloads when it says downloading guide. It is not the TVGOS guide. TVGOS listing data is sent out for 25 minutes, 8 times a day at very specific times. If you disable updates, you'll see that the TVGOS guide data still downloads, proving that isn't what that time setting is for. The purpose of the updates is to give it a time to go out to the internet and search for a firmware upgrade. Since you don't have it connected to the internet, there is no point in having updates enabled.

Mark

Mark - Are you sure about this? When I turn off DST, my system never froze. What does the DST have to do with firmware (PSIP) download? Why would it browsing the TV guide make the firmware (PSIP) download?
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post #255 of 734 Old 05-16-2011, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by joel27nc View Post

Mark - Are you sure about this? When I turn off DST, my system never froze. What does the DST have to do with firmware (PSIP) download? Why would it browsing the TV guide make the firmware (PSIP) download?

Why are you calling PSIP firmware? I thought PSIP is just TV programming data for the grid.
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post #256 of 734 Old 05-16-2011, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by LuvMyDVR33 View Post

Why are you calling PSIP firmware? I thought PSIP is just TV programming data for the grid.

If you looked at Marks remarks, you'll see why I put it that way.
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post #257 of 734 Old 05-16-2011, 11:53 PM
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Originally Posted by TalkingRat View Post

Thanks, Joel. I'm trying hard not to spend money. Given Pal's reputation for freezing, I'm not sure $19 makes up for the risk of an open box lemon. Getting it from CM may improve the odds that it's been checked out, but it's still had an extra round trip of being tossed around by the shippers.

I bought an open box unit from Channel Master several months ago, paid $261 with free shipping and it carries the full one-year warranty. It's performed like a champ.

The measure of a man's character is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out.
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post #258 of 734 Old 05-17-2011, 05:01 AM
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Originally Posted by joel27nc View Post

Mark - Are you sure about this? When I turn off DST, my system never froze. What does the DST have to do with firmware (PSIP) download? Why would it browsing the TV guide make the firmware (PSIP) download?

DST (Daylight Savings Time) has nothing to do with this. Anything that you saw happen when you messed with that setting was a complete coincidence. PSIP is not firmware it is the ATSC guide that each channel sends out. It only covers about 24 hours or less. TVGOS is an 8 day guide that sends out 8 days of data at a time. The 'Downloading Guide' message is just part of the reboot. If you unplug your DVR you see that same message when you plug it back in.

Mark
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post #259 of 734 Old 05-17-2011, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by mabuttra View Post

DST (Daylight Savings Time) has nothing to do with this. Anything that you saw happen when you messed with that setting was a complete coincidence. PSIP is not firmware it is the ATSC guide that each channel sends out. It only covers about 24 hours or less. TVGOS is an 8 day guide that sends out 8 days of data at a time. The 'Downloading Guide' message is just part of the reboot. If you unplug your DVR you see that same message when you plug it back in.

Mark

Mark - I contacted CM about my DVR freezing up while doing a download. They told me to reset my DVR so I can make sure DST isn't set. The DST caused the downloads to occur while I was using the browsing feature. After turning the DST off, I never had the freezing issues again. It was happening a lot before that, I don't think that's a coincidence.
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post #260 of 734 Old 05-18-2011, 01:53 AM
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Originally Posted by joel27nc View Post

Mark - I contacted CM about my DVR freezing up while doing a download. They told me to reset my DVR so I can make sure DST isn't set. The DST caused the downloads to occur while I was using the browsing feature. After turning the DST off, I never had the freezing issues again. It was happening a lot before that, I don't think that's a coincidence.

But with DST set to off isn't your clock incorrect by an hour? Or does that setting have no effect if time is gotten from TVGOS and the zip is correct?
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post #261 of 734 Old 05-18-2011, 04:58 AM
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Originally Posted by joel27nc View Post

Mark - I contacted CM about my DVR freezing up while doing a download. They told me to reset my DVR so I can make sure DST isn't set. The DST caused the downloads to occur while I was using the browsing feature. After turning the DST off, I never had the freezing issues again. It was happening a lot before that, I don't think that's a coincidence.

Changing the DST setting has no effect on the download times. The CM7000 can't control when the downloads happen, only Rovi can do that. The first listing download of the day runs from 12:56am to 1:21am local time. Nothing you change on the Pal can change that. The last listing download of the day runs from 4:41pm to 5:06pm. There are 6 other download times if you want me to list them.

Mark
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post #262 of 734 Old 05-18-2011, 06:19 AM
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Originally Posted by TalkingRat View Post

FYI, Amazon and Crutchfield have the CM-7000pal for under $300 today. If you go with Crutchfield, look online for the $20 promotion coupon. Never bought from Crutchfield, just noticed it's on sale again.

I took advantage of this deal, because I feel that Crutchfield makes this purchase worry free. They have a 30 day money back return policy. All you have to do is give them a reason, and pay $7 for using their return label.

On the open box option at Channel Master, its definitely a good deal. My concern with any open box item are: Am I getting someone else's problems. Will it have all the accessories. Is there any cosmetic damage. And my biggest concern you can't return it if you decide you don't like it. They have a money back guarantee on most items, but here is one exception "Non-returnable items include: CM7000PAL" ("http://www.channelmasterstore.com/Articles.asp?ID=149"). Between being new and the hassle free return policy, its worth it to me to pay an extra $19 to buy it from Crutchfield. For others, it may be worth the risk.
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post #263 of 734 Old 05-18-2011, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by dvdchance View Post

But with DST set to off isn't your clock incorrect by an hour? Or does that setting have no effect if time is gotten from TVGOS and the zip is correct?

The setting does nothing to the time....I even asked CM tech guy about that.....my time has been correct even though it's off.
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post #264 of 734 Old 05-18-2011, 10:11 PM
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I took advantage of this deal, because I feel that Crutchfield makes this purchase worry free. They have a 30 day money back return policy. All you have to do is give them a reason, and pay $7 for using their return label.

On the open box option at Channel Master, its definitely a good deal. My concern with any open box item are: Am I getting someone else's problems. Will it have all the accessories. Is there any cosmetic damage. And my biggest concern you can't return it if you decide you don't like it. They have a money back guarantee on most items, but here is one exception "Non-returnable items include: CM7000PAL" ("http://www.channelmasterstore.com/Articles.asp?ID=149"). Between being new and the hassle free return policy, its worth it to me to pay an extra $19 to buy it from Crutchfield. For others, it may be worth the risk.

Sorry you feel that way. I got one Open Box from CM, looks brand new & no issues. You could have saved $19 more, less if you had to return since Crutchfield charges $7 to return. CM does have a return policy as well. To each is own!
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post #265 of 734 Old 05-19-2011, 05:05 AM
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Originally Posted by joel27nc View Post
The setting does nothing to the time....I even asked CM tech guy about that.....my time has been correct even though it's off.
Are you sure that setting is still set to what you think it is? Just for fun I tried changing DST to No on mine. It warned me that it wasn't the right setting for my area, and I had to confirm that I really wanted to change it. It had no effect on the clock (which it should have moved an hour back). Then I went in and verified it was still set to No, and it wasn't. The system switched it back to Yes. I think TVGOS controls,this setting, and although it appears that the system allows you to change it, TVGOS changes it right back. That would also explain why your clock is correct, it didn't really change that setting. I remembered someone in the DTVPal forum had the same problem. They wanted to change the setting, but TVGOS switched it back.

Mark
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post #266 of 734 Old 05-19-2011, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by mabuttra View Post
Are you sure that setting is still set to what you think it is? Just for fun I tried changing DST to No on mine. It warned me that it wasn't the right setting for my area, and I had to confirm that I really wanted to change it. It had no effect on the clock (which it should have moved an hour back). Then I went in and verified it was still set to No, and it wasn't. The system switched it back to Yes. I think TVGOS controls,this setting, and although it appears that the system allows you to change it, TVGOS changes it right back. That would also explain why your clock is correct, it didn't really change that setting. I remembered someone in the DTVPal forum had the same problem. They wanted to change the setting, but TVGOS switched it back.

Mark
That's interesting. So even DST is controlled by TVGOS when it sets time. It must use the zip code to change the offset from GMT that an area uses. Or else places that don't use DST, like parts of Indiana and all of Arizona, would not be in correct time during the summer. If I was home I would try setting my zip to one in a different time zone to see if it adjusts the time correctly.

Perhaps there was more then one case, but the issue in the DTVPal thread was a user or 2 in Montreal that only used PSIP for time wasn't able to adjust it for DST. I don't think that issue got any resolution.
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post #267 of 734 Old 05-19-2011, 11:31 AM
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Perhaps there was more then one case, but the issue in the DTVPal thread was a user or 2 in Montreal that only used PSIP for time wasn't able to adjust it for DST. I don't think that issue got any resolution.

Hi. I was one of the 2 guy that have DST problem in Montreal. The other is Info_Dan.

I have made some research and some test and concluded the following:

The CM-7000Pal take it time from the TVGOS when you receive it. If you don't receive it, it take the time from CBS or a channel affiliated with CBS.
In my case, in Montreal, with the antenna set-up that I have, I don't received TVGOS or CBS or an affiliated channel.

In that case the CM-7000Pal make an average of the different time they decode from all the PSIP that they received. In the case of Montreal, we have only 5 station, CBFT, CBMT, CIMV, CFCF and V in digital.

Taking a look at the data extracted from the five PSIP, we can see that only one station transmit the time properly with the DST compensation. This station is CIVM. To prove that, I reset the DVR to factory, and during the scanning of channel, I connect the antenna only during the scan period where is CIVM 17.1 (27). At the end of the operation, I only have CIVM, but I have the good time, the time of the CIVM guide is good, and I was able to play with the DST switch in the menu, with effect on the time seen on that screen menu.

As soon as I add one of the other 4 channels, the time return to non DST compensated time, and the guide follow.

Conclusion: The CM-7000Pal work normally, and 4 channels from a total of 5 send the bad time info in their PSIP. There is nothing to do to correct the time. The problem will be solved when every station transmit the time properly. We have to wait.

Darmand
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post #268 of 734 Old 05-19-2011, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by darmand View Post

Conclusion: The CM-7000Pal work normally, and 4 channels from a total of 5 send the bad time info in their PSIP. There is nothing to do to correct the time. The problem will be solved when every station transmit the time properly. We have to wait.

Thanks for doing research on this; I'm sure other people who don't have TVGOS or CBS will find it useful. I do have a question though... if you don't have TVGOS, doesn't the CM-7000Pal allow you to set the clock manually and ignore PSIP time data? I was under the impression that only TVGOS would override the user-set time. If that's not the case, that would mean that the unit is useless unless your stations have the correct PSIP time? The only work around I suppose would be to set all your timers based on the bogus time information being sent by the stations... you'd think that when DTV was adopted, stations would have been required to actually set their clocks correctly. I guess nobody's actually enforcing that.
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post #269 of 734 Old 05-19-2011, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by dvdchance View Post

Or else places that don't use DST, like parts of Indiana and all of Arizona ...

The places that don't use DST are most of Arizona, nearly all of Saskatchewan, and all of Hawaii.  All of Indiana has observed DST since 2005.
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post #270 of 734 Old 05-19-2011, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by mabuttra View Post

Are you sure that setting is still set to what you think it is? Just for fun I tried changing DST to No on mine. It warned me that it wasn't the right setting for my area, and I had to confirm that I really wanted to change it. It had no effect on the clock (which it should have moved an hour back). Then I went in and verified it was still set to No, and it wasn't. The system switched it back to Yes. I think TVGOS controls,this setting, and although it appears that the system allows you to change it, TVGOS changes it right back. That would also explain why your clock is correct, it didn't really change that setting. I remembered someone in the DTVPal forum had the same problem. They wanted to change the setting, but TVGOS switched it back.

Mark

Mark - I see you are correct. The DST is back on. TVGOS must change it. I also turned off my updates, TVGOS still gets updated. It appears the CM tech support is throwing crap at me. Which means they lied to me about software updates to stream internet stuff & be able to set your DVR while not at home, through the internet. Suppost to happen in the next 9 months now. Hum. Thanks for your help.
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