D-VHS vs DVR for recording HD? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 117 Old 05-31-2013, 01:00 PM
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You can't record from the ilink port unfortunately. That was the huge letdown of D-VHS units. Had a few D-VHS movies. The picture quality was superior to blu-ray, just about as close to real cinematic picture as one could get.
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post #32 of 117 Old 05-31-2013, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OShag View Post

You can't record from the ilink port unfortunately. That was the huge letdown of D-VHS units. Had a few D-VHS movies. The picture quality was superior to blu-ray, just about as close to real cinematic picture as one could get.

Not sure what you mean, but I recorded hundreds of D-VHS mpeg2 streams from the firewire (iLink) port on my cable box. All in 1080i HD resolution on D-VHS and S-VHS tapes with my JVS DH-5U.

Mike T
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post #33 of 117 Old 05-31-2013, 11:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OShag View Post

You can't record from the ilink port unfortunately. That was the huge letdown of D-VHS units.
No, that is incorrect. "ilink", which is just a proprietary name for FireWire, can record just fine on a D-VHS unit...provided that the channel being recorded is not set to "Copy Never".

I have several D-VHS units and have used all of them to record from my Motorola DCH-3416 cable box DVR using the ilink (FireWire) connection.
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Originally Posted by OShag View Post

Had a few D-VHS movies. The picture quality was superior to blu-ray, just about as close to real cinematic picture as one could get.
I agree that D-VHS is really high quality (it is, bit-for-bit, the exact same digital MPEG-2 stream that was broadcast by the cable company or Over-The-Air television network), but you are delusional if you think the quality surpasses Blu-ray. Just the audio bitrate on Dolby TrueHD can be as large or larger than most D-VHS recording's total bitrate.
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post #34 of 117 Old 06-04-2013, 04:47 PM
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I too can confirm that recording HD from a set-top box is possible via the 1394 port on a D-VHS machine (JVC 40k). Just grabbed a few frames from both HBO and Starz, in HD - looked lovely.
But... is there anyway to get that recording OFF tape and into a computer via 1394 to retain the HD, or via the component outputs (although that way, you would lose any 5.1 audio decoding I imagine)
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post #35 of 117 Old 06-04-2013, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by tvmaster View Post

is there anyway to get that recording OFF tape and into a computer via 1394 to retain the HD
Not really. All of the companies that own those premium channels now contractually require the cable companies to set the copy-once flag on those premium channels, meaning that what you have on your D-VHS tape is encrypted and can't be duplicated again or transferred to a computer. Each channel has a copy control flag that can be set to one of several things:

Copy-Freely = unencrypted. This can be recorded directly to a PC or Mac or D-VHS unit. You could also play back a D-VHS tape which contains material flagged as Copy-Freely and use the 1394 port to send it to a Mac or PC (or even another D-VHS unit). If your recording were flagged as Copy-Freely then, yes, you would be able to transfer that to your computer via the 1394 port.

Copy-Once = encrypted. This can only be recorded once and no duplications\transfers are allowed. D-VHS units are able to record this, but you can't copy the tape. You only get that first generation, and it is not possible to create a 2nd or 3rd generation copy, nor is it possible to transfer the recording to a Mac or PC.

Copy-Never = This can't be recorded whatsoever (OnDemand/PPV type stuff)

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Originally Posted by tvmaster View Post

is there anyway to get that recording OFF tape and into a computer via 1394 to retain the HD or via the component outputs (although that way, you would lose any 5.1 audio decoding I imagine)
Yes, there are devices that can use the "analog hole" as it's commonly known as. You'll want to search these forums for the Hauppauge HD-PVR and Hauppauge Colossus, and the BlackMagic Intensity. The newer ones can even capture from HDMI, but they are legally required to obey HDCP protection, meaning that they are essentially useless. Even when capturing from Component video, you don't need to lose 5.1 audio because many of these units accept a toslink audio cable in order to record in 5.1.
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post #36 of 117 Old 06-05-2013, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvmaster View Post

I too can confirm that recording HD from a set-top box is possible via the 1394 port on a D-VHS machine (JVC 40k). Just grabbed a few frames from both HBO and Starz, in HD - looked lovely.
But... is there anyway to get that recording OFF tape and into a computer via 1394 to retain the HD, or via the component outputs (although that way, you would lose any 5.1 audio decoding I imagine)

Yes, but it cannot be discussed on this forum.

Mike T
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post #37 of 117 Old 06-05-2013, 04:57 PM
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If I wanted to transfer the dvcam footage I shot, and then transferred via 1394 to my D-VHS for archive, is there a 1394 PC card that comes to mind for inputting? HD-PVR etc are all component.
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post #38 of 117 Old 06-05-2013, 09:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvmaster View Post

is there anyway to get that recording OFF tape and into a computer via 1394 to retain the HD, or via the component outputs (although that way, you would lose any 5.1 audio decoding I imagine)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtallent View Post

Yes, but it cannot be discussed on this forum.

Well hold on, if you are referring to defeating HDCP protection, that still doesn't result in a great capture. There is still MPEG-4 recompression which often drops the quality rather noticeably. There is no way to get a bit-perfect copy of the HD recording, as the encryption has not been broken.
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post #39 of 117 Old 06-05-2013, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvmaster View Post

If I wanted to transfer the dvcam footage I shot, and then transferred via 1394 to my D-VHS for archive, is there a 1394 PC card that comes to mind for inputting? HD-PVR etc are all component.

If it is footage that you recorded on your dv camera, then it should be unprotected and therefore can be FireWire captured to D-VHS or directly to a PC or Mac. I don't have any specific recommendation on FireWire controller cards (because I haven't bought one in years), but I'd recommend you go with one that uses a TI chipset. I have a couple of TI chipset FireWire controllers that both work fine for my FireWire captures.
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post #40 of 117 Old 06-06-2013, 10:36 AM
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TI +1
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post #41 of 117 Old 06-30-2013, 07:59 PM
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.I spent couple of hours today trying to get something recorded on tape of my JVC HM-DH5U VCR through FireWire. I used my old Sony DV Standard Def. camcorder (DCR-HC90) which I have used many times with Sony HDD-DVR (RDR-HX715) purchased around 2005 both equipped with iLink. Controlling and transferring recordings from DV tapes to DVR was never so easy. I thought it will be the same with this JVC DVHS. I followed vcr manual but everytime I am switching vcr input to I-1 the TV screen goes blank (JVC is connected with TV using HDMI) like there is no video signal coming out of VCR. Not mentioning controlling DV camera is not possible either.I decided to check VCR FireWire connection to make sure both IEEE1394 inputs on VCR works fine, so I ran Cyberlink Power Producer 11 under Win7 and connecting my VCR to PC while Sony camcorder to front iLink socket of VCR. Both devices (VCR and Camcorder) were visible and selectable from application menu as sources for capture which ensured me firewire on my vcr works fine. Still I am stuck and appreciate anyones help to trst recording to DVHS using back FireWire connection. Anyone?
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post #42 of 117 Old 07-01-2013, 05:27 PM
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The DV format has a bit rate of 25 mbps and is not compatible with the ATSC 19.3 mbps of the firewire port on the D-VHS recorders. The data you want to record to the D-VHS has to be a transport stream at a constant bit rate of about 19.3 mbps. I guess I wonder why you are trying to record to D-VHS as there are better methods now than using tape. Maybe if you explain what your are trying to accomplish a better suggestion will be available.

Mike T
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post #43 of 117 Old 07-01-2013, 08:09 PM
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@mtallent
Thanks for reply. Sure I use Pinnacle Studio or Cyberlink Power Producer to get videos from my Sony camcorder through iLink no problem and create DVDs or BDs on my PC.
But my DVHS story is different. I got this player recently and was just curious of its capabilities. Being technology junkie and exploring dead formats I just want to exercise recording to this deck through firewire as I read lots of people were successful on this. Trouble is this was years ago and most of helpful links are inactive making my dvhs exploration slightly difficult.

Today's update.
I found that under Windows 7, VCR runs only for 2-3 seconds under Power Producer when capturing from deck to PC. Not sure why it auto stops after such short period. Will try under XP tomorrow.
I downloaded TSreader Lite and installed under Win7 but program crashes whenever I try to use Record to DVHS option from app menu. Will try under XP tomorrow as well. I wonder if TSReader developer made it work under Win7 or just XP. It's website is outdated but I read in other thread that last update was sent to registered users just month ago.
Another logical workaround under Win7 would be just simply use TSReader to convert mpeg file to required 19.3Mbps format to save it later manually on vcr deck using DVHSTool. Does it make sense, will it work? Anyone tried? Cheers.

*** Question
How to use TSReader as converter to remux MPEG-2 1920x1080 19.392Mpbs video into DVHS "compatible" video (file?) to dump it later though FireWire into tape?
Does Lite version allow that or should I buy registered version?
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post #44 of 117 Old 07-02-2013, 09:51 AM
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I use the registered version of TSReader but I don't remember using it for file remuxing I only used it for capturing streams. In another thread I sent you an old link that I think included a link to download TStoATSC, and that is what I think I used to add null packets to pad the stream to 19.3 mbps. I never used Win 7 only use XP for this. I believe that DVHSTool can do this also. I also remember there is a registry patch to make XP pad any stream that it sends through firewire to the ATSC rates and also that XP SP3 brakes the firewire driver and you need to patch a SP2 driver into Win XP SP3. I guess the search for all this old info will add some additional learning for playing with the old DVHS equipment. I remember all the work it took to make this work, but before HD-DVD and Blu-Ray was available then D-VHS was the only choice and still is if you want to record programming from a cable box firewire port. Fortunately here Comcast has all the HD channels set for copy freely except for the premium movie channels, so I can capture directly to my XP computer using firewire and CapDVHS software.

Mike T
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post #45 of 117 Old 07-02-2013, 11:49 AM
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I have created 19.392Mbps .TS file using AVS converter (it has such profile file), it plays well on PC with any player showing indeed bitrate as required. Then I wanted to send it to DVHS deck through Firewire. Because DVHSTool refuses to work on windows 7, I tried to do it on XP SP3 (I do not have XP SP2) and transfer seems to be successful. However, when playing back the tape, there is no video and screen stays blank. So I tried to verify file I just wrote to the tape with DVHSTool but it tells me to make sure to select Video and Audio decoders in Setting menu. But when I try to do that by selecting Properties for Audio or Video decoder), the app crashes.

Does DVHSTool works only under XP SP2? Mike suggested to install patch for SP2 drive into SP3. Do you mean installing SP2 drive on SP3 windows or installing XP SP3 - this one I already have and it makes DVHTool app crashing.

Is there any way to get this transfer done? How about pro software tools that works with DVHS deck, anything out there - even outdated? I appreciate the help.

*** update:

I just tried to use TStoATSC and it says:

Couldn't find PCR packet. Bad stream or wrong video PID?

but the TSReade Lite shows the following screen for the same file:



Is that OK?
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post #46 of 117 Old 07-02-2013, 01:16 PM
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Looks like the bit rate on green bar is to high, should be around 18-19 mbps. Check out this thread I think it covers some of the firewire problems with SP3 and how to fix it.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/403695/how-to-record-via-ieee-1394-firewire-to-windows-xp/0_50

And this thread on using TStoATSC--
http://www.avsforum.com/t/525039/can-anyone-please-tell-me-how-to-get-tstoatsc-to-work/0_50

Search through this forum, there was many threads on firewire and D-VHS problems.

Mike T
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post #47 of 117 Old 07-02-2013, 01:53 PM
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Thanks Mike. I am at this thread but it has 120 pages full of posts. Will try to search for SP3 driver fix. The bitrate shown on the "green" bar is not a mux bitrate. This one is usually shown on the lower portion of the TSReader screen but I cropped it.

In the meantime, I was able to use TStoATSC to remux and fix genuine ATSC .trp capture (wcitest.trp) containing multiple programs. I selected just one pair of audio & video PIDs that I need according to TStoATSC readme.txt. After conversion the app sowed no errors, 0 problems and it created file with only. The output file seems to have required constant bitrate of 19392658 bps - checked with TSReader - see screenshot below, circled in red.



I checked also this file plays on VLC no problem. Then using DVHSTool I transfered the program to DVHS hoping it will playback. Not this time either, black screen.

confused.gif
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post #48 of 117 Old 07-02-2013, 05:20 PM
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Interesting, eek.gif
I just plugged my cable box (Motorola QIP7100-2) to this dvhs deck using FireWire and it records everything just fine in HD. No wonder lobbyist like TiVo would not be happy if dvhs decks were still available on market. But they are not and dvhs format is buried deep under.
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post #49 of 117 Old 07-02-2013, 05:34 PM
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I apologise if I have put anyone out with my dialogue regarding d-vhs. I could not get my ilink /ieee1394 interface to work as a cable interface connected to a source from which I could record in hi-def. I stand corrected as so many have been able to do this.

I have posted but a few times on this forum. I am no expert, just an enthusiast. I don't know much. I have invested a lot of money over many years in this hobby.

I would not have posted at al but for AVS Forums continually sending me emails virtually every day. So I say something, and as I kind of expected, I get a harsh and disrespectful reply from TNO821 that I must be delusional. I am not delusional, and I will say no more to justify my comments regarding the quality of D-VHS picture compared to most Blu-Ray transfers that a ruined during transfer by a number of factors.

I don't know, do you guys just get a kick out of making people feel stupid, instead of meaking them feel welcome?

Anyhow, I won'y bother posting again... and AVS Forum, lease stop soliciting for my input to your forums on a daily basis...
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post #50 of 117 Old 07-02-2013, 06:26 PM
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post #51 of 117 Old 07-04-2013, 09:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esdwa View Post

.I spent couple of hours today trying to get something recorded on tape of my JVC HM-DH5U VCR through FireWire. I used my old Sony DV Standard Def. camcorder (DCR-HC90) which I have used many times with Sony HDD-DVR (RDR-HX715) purchased around 2005 both equipped with iLink. Controlling and transferring recordings from DV tapes to DVR was never so easy. I thought it will be the same with this JVC DVHS. I followed vcr manual but everytime I am switching vcr input to I-1 the TV screen goes blank (JVC is connected with TV using HDMI) like there is no video signal coming out of VCR. Not mentioning controlling DV camera is not possible either.I decided to check VCR FireWire connection to make sure both IEEE1394 inputs on VCR works fine, so I ran Cyberlink Power Producer 11 under Win7 and connecting my VCR to PC while Sony camcorder to front iLink socket of VCR. Both devices (VCR and Camcorder) were visible and selectable from application menu as sources for capture which ensured me firewire on my vcr works fine. Still I am stuck and appreciate anyones help to trst recording to DVHS using back FireWire connection. Anyone?

You should be able to plug the DV camera into the JVC HM-DH5U directly. The HM-DH5U will re-encode the DV output to MPEG-2 for storage on the DHVS tape.

Ron

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post #52 of 117 Old 07-05-2013, 05:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr1394 View Post

You should be able to plug the DV camera into the JVC HM-DH5U directly. The HM-DH5U will re-encode the DV output to MPEG-2 for storage on the DHVS tape.

Ron

Obviously it does not work this way, i.e. does not re-encode camcorder DV output The only source that works with this deck through firewire is my cable box, where I am able to record in SD and HD.
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post #53 of 117 Old 07-05-2013, 07:52 AM
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Perhaps what dr1394 was referring to is the possibility of the DVHS deck to change containers of the camcorder output from DV to MPEG-TS by the reference to "re-encoding" it?
The video would not be touched, only the storage container modified to what DVHS accepts/requires? DV is MPEG2 already.
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post #54 of 117 Old 07-05-2013, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qz3fwd View Post

DV is MPEG2 already.

But as mtallent mentioned already, DV has 25mbps bitrate which is too much for dvhs. So direct firewire is not possible.
Just to clarify...again, I am not seeking for DV solution. I look for PC to DVHS solution. Cheers
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post #55 of 117 Old 07-05-2013, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esdwa View Post

I have created 19.392Mbps .TS file using AVS converter (it has such profile file), it plays well on PC with any player showing indeed bitrate as required. Then I wanted to send it to DVHS deck through Firewire. Because DVHSTool refuses to work on windows 7, I tried to do it on XP SP3 (I do not have XP SP2) and transfer seems to be successful. However, when playing back the tape, there is no video and screen stays blank. So I tried to verify file I just wrote to the tape with DVHSTool but it tells me to make sure to select Video and Audio decoders in Setting menu. But when I try to do that by selecting Properties for Audio or Video decoder), the app crashes.

Does DVHSTool works only under XP SP2? Mike suggested to install patch for SP2 drive into SP3. Do you mean installing SP2 drive on SP3 windows or installing XP SP3 - this one I already have and it makes DVHTool app crashing.

Is there any way to get this transfer done? How about pro software tools that works with DVHS deck, anything out there - even outdated? I appreciate the help.

*** update:

I just tried to use TStoATSC and it says:

Couldn't find PCR packet. Bad stream or wrong video PID?

but the TSReade Lite shows the following screen for the same file:



Is that OK?

I think you have to make sure that null packets are inserted into the TS to result in the DVHS deck seeing a constant bitrate.

Anyhow, if you have access to a mac, try downloading apples firewire SDK and try VirtualDVHS tool. I seem to recall reading here on the forums years ago that apples firewire support was much better than microsofts implementation.
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post #56 of 117 Old 07-05-2013, 08:29 AM
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Thanks for input. I do not own nor have access to Mac. I always refer to PC in my posts and for PC I seek solution. Thanks
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post #57 of 117 Old 07-05-2013, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esdwa View Post

Obviously it does not work this way, i.e. does not re-encode camcorder DV output The only source that works with this deck through firewire is my cable box, where I am able to record in SD and HD.

Obviously, you've never read the manual.

http://resources.jvc.com/Resources/00/00/90/LPT0943-001B.pdf

See page 72.

BTW, the second generation JVC D-VHS decks (HM-DH40000U, HM-DH5U, HM-DT100U) all use an SoC from LSI Logic. While I was LSI, I developed the entire 1394 interface for the SoC and worked directly with JVC to add all the functionality they required for D-VHS. I think I just might know how this stuff works.

Ron
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post #58 of 117 Old 07-05-2013, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qz3fwd View Post

Perhaps what dr1394 was referring to is the possibility of the DVHS deck to change containers of the camcorder output from DV to MPEG-TS by the reference to "re-encoding" it?
The video would not be touched, only the storage container modified to what DVHS accepts/requires? DV is MPEG2 already.

DV is not MPEG-2. It's a completely separate intra-frame only format. JVC D-VHS decks include a DV decoder and an SD MPEG-2 encoder (all in the SoC) and are fully capable of re-encoding DV input. The SD MPEG-2 encoder also works on the analog inputs, although I'll guess nobody here has tried that.

Ron

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post #59 of 117 Old 07-05-2013, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qz3fwd View Post

Perhaps what dr1394 was referring to is the possibility of the DVHS deck to change containers of the camcorder output from DV to MPEG-TS by the reference to "re-encoding" it?
The video would not be touched, only the storage container modified to what DVHS accepts/requires? DV is MPEG2 already.

No, its like Ron (dr1394) stated.
The JVC HM-DH5U will transcode the DV to MPEG-2.
DV compression is not MPEG-2, it doesn’t even belong to the MPEG family. DV uses “Discrete Cosine Transforms (DCT) encoding. MPEG-2 uses temporal encoding.

As to MPEG-2 there are many variants using different levels and different profiles and they aren’t all compatible with each other.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtallent View Post

The DV format has a bit rate of 25 mbps and is not compatible with the ATSC 19.3 mbps of the firewire port on the D-VHS recorders. The data you want to record to the D-VHS has to be a transport stream at a constant bit rate of about 19.3 mbps. I guess I wonder why you are trying to record to D-VHS as there are better methods now than using tape. Maybe if you explain what your are trying to accomplish a better suggestion will be available.

Mike T

The maximum TS bitrate that can be recorded is around 24 to 25 Mbps. This rate is compatible with the Japanese BS satellite system, for which D-VHS was originally designed for. The pre-recorded D-Theatre tapes have a TS bitrate of exactly 25.0512 Mbps, with the video only bitrate of 23.0 Mbps.

Ron

HD MPEG-2 Test Patterns http://www.w6rz.net
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