Lawsuit happy TiVo, program guides & countersuits. TiVo just sell your product & stop your greed. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 93 Old 04-29-2012, 09:20 AM - Thread Starter
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"A multimedia time warping system"
A phrase I have never heard before. Didn't Sony have the patient on that back in 1976?

I don't feel sorry for TiVo one bit for their financial situation because of their obsession to sue anyone that has a recording device with or w/o some type of Guide.
I might understand a few of these lawsuits, but they have gone off the deep end. It's seems obvious to me, they apparently have more income coming in from these suits than from selling the actual product which they seem to change every year.

I have done a little searching on the subject and find the following most interesting if you can possibly scan through all the patents;
http://www.google.com/patents/US6233389

The latest lawsuits;
http://www.mediapost.com/publications/article/165122/
http://www.cuhea.com/2012/03/28/tivo...n-patent-suit/
Resighting this;

Quote:


U.S. patents owned by TiVo:
• 6,233,389: A multimedia time-warping system for storing select TV programs while the user is simultaneously watching or reviewing another program.
• 7,529,465: Another multimedia time-warping system in which TV streams are converted in to MPEG formats and then later decoded to TV output signals and receivers.
• 6,792,195: A method and apparatus for implementing random access and time-based functions on a continuous stream of formatted digital data.

and the older Echostar suit from 2004 (a long legal read);
http://ipsogeni.us/case-2011-wl-1486162

which seems to be based on this;

Quote:


TiVo Inc. (“TiVo”) owns U.S. Patent 6,233,389 (“the ‘389 patent” or “TiVo’s patent”), which is entitled “Multimedia Time Warping System.” The patented technology allows television users to simultaneously record and play (“time-shift”) television broadcasts using what is commonly known as a digital video recorder (“DVR”). A DVR allows users to fast-forward, rewind, pause, and replay a “live” television program while it is playing on the television set. TiVo’s patent covers various features essential to the working of a DVR.

 

A recent development is in post #93.


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post #2 of 93 Old 04-29-2012, 09:31 AM - Thread Starter
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The apparent argument of the Echostar suit is this;
Quote:


Claim 31 of the ‘389 patent is the first of the two software claims. It provides as follows:
A process for the simultaneous storage and play back of multimedia data, comprising the steps of:
[1] providing a physical data source, wherein said physical data source accepts broadcast data from an input device, parses video and audio data from said broadcast data, and temporarily stores said video and audio data;
[2] providing a source object, wherein said source object extracts video and audio data from said physical data source;
[3] providing a transform object, wherein said transform object stores and retrieves data streams onto a storage device;
[4] wherein said source object obtains a buffer from said transform object, said source object converts video data into data streams and fills said buffer with said streams;
*1418 [5] wherein said source object is automatically flow controlled by said transform object;
[6] providing a sink object, wherein said sink object obtains data stream buffers from said transform object and outputs said streams to a video and audio decoder;
[7] wherein said decoder converts said streams into display signals and sends said signals to a display;
[8] wherein said sink object is automatically flow controlled by said transform object;
[9] providing a control object, wherein said control object receives commands from a user, said commands control the flow of the broadcast data through the system; and
[10] wherein said control object sends flow command events to said source, transform, and sink objects.
‘389 patent claim 31 (emphases added). Claim 61 is similar to claim 31, except that it recites an apparatus rather than a process. See id. claim 61.

The accused EchoStar satellite television receivers can be broadly classified into two categories based on the processing chip employed by the receiver: the “50X” series and the “Broadcom” series. The district court submitted questions of infringement and invalidity to the jury. TiVo, Inc. v. Dish Network Corp., No. 2:04-CV-00001, ECF No. 690 (E.D. Tex. Apr. 13, 2006) [hereinafter Verdict Form]. On infringement, the jury was asked whether eight different models of EchoStar receivers, three of the 50X series and five of the Broadcom series, literally infringed the hardware or software claims of TiVo’s patent. Id. at 2-3. The jury answered “yes” for each of the asserted claims, for each of the eight listed receivers. Id. It also found, by clear and convincing evidence, that EchoStar’s infringement was willful, id. at 4, and awarded TiVo approximately $74 million in lost profits and reasonable royalties, id. at 8. The district court entered judgment on the verdict and issued a permanent injunction against EchoStar. In its injunction, the district court ordered EchoStar: (1) to stop making, using, offering to sell, and selling the receivers that had been found infringing by the jury (the “infringement” provision) and (2) to disable the DVR functionality in existing receivers that had already been placed with EchoStar’s customers and in new placements that were yet to be placed with EchoStar’s customers (the “disablement” provision). The infringement provision reads:


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post #3 of 93 Old 04-29-2012, 09:38 AM - Thread Starter
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This seems to be one of the earliest patents (12/04) for this type of device according to that patient link in my 1st post;
Quote:


A broadcast recording and playback device employing a "circular buffer" which constantly records one or more incoming audio or video program signals and a microprocessor for accessing the memory to read a playback signal from the circular buffer to display programming material delayed from its receipt by a selectable delay interval. The circular buffer is implemented by a digital memory. Subsystem comprising the combination of a semiconductor RAM memory and a disk memory operated under the control of a microprocessor such that incoming signals are constantly recorded as received while, at the same time, delayed signals are being read from the memory subsystem at a different memory location selected by a microprocessor to provide a user-selected time delay. A plurality of input signal processors provides one or more programming signals to the memory subsystem in compressed digital form and a separate output signal processor converts the compressed digital information read from the memory into a form suitable for display. The audio/video buffer system operates under the control of a microprocessor which accepts commands from a remote command device or a connected host computer.

A link for a full .pdf is here with a interesting set of block diagrams;
http://www.google.com/patents/US5371...page&q&f=false

Also interesting, 9 months later, Tektronix has this patent;
http://www.google.com/patents/US5438...page&q&f=false

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post #4 of 93 Old 04-29-2012, 09:48 AM - Thread Starter
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The first TiVo patent I found is here (from May 2001);
http://www.google.com/patents/US6233...page&q&f=false
Quote:


A multimedia time warping system. The invention allows the user to store selected television broadcast programs while the user is simultaneously watching or reviewing another program. A preferred embodiment of the invention accepts television (TV) input streams in a multitude of forms, for example, National Television Standards Committee (NTSC) or PAL broadcast, and digital forms such as Digital Satellite System (DSS), Digital Broadcast Services (DBS), or Advanced Television Standards Committee (ATSC). The TV streams are converted to an Moving Pictures Experts Group (MPEG) formatted stream for internal transfer and manipulation and are parsed and separated it into video and audio components. The components are stored in temporary buffers. Events are recorded that indicate the type of component that has been found, where it is located, and when it occurred. The program logic is notified that an event has occurred and the data is extracted from the buffers. The parser and event buffer decouple the CPU from having to parse the MPEG stream and from the real time nature of the data streams which allows for slower CPU and bus speeds and translate to lower system costs. The video and audio components are stored on a storage device and when the program is requested for display, the video and audio components are extracted from the storage device and reassembled into an MPEG stream which is sent to a decoder. The decoder converts the MPEG stream into TV output signals and delivers the TV output signals to a TV receiver. User control commands are accepted and sent through the system. These commands affect the flow of said MPEG stream and allow the user to view stored programs with at least the following functions: reverse, fast forward, play, pause, index, fast/slow reverse play, and fast/slow play.


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post #5 of 93 Old 04-29-2012, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
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History on the EPG (Electronic Program Guide);
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_program_guide
Quote:


In 1981 United Video Satellite Group launched the first North American EPG service, known simply as The Electronic Program Guide channel.

Quote:


In 1986, STV/Onsat, a paper programing guide company, introduced SuperGuide- an interactive electronic programming guide for home satellite dish viewers.

Quote:


In June 1988 US 4751578 was awarded to Eli Reiter, Michael H. Zemering, and Frank Shannon. This patent concerned the implementation of a searchable electronic program guide – an interactive program guide (IPG).

Quote:


In 1996 Prevue Networks introduced the first IPG service in the United States, Prevue Interactive, designed for the General Instruments DCT 1000 series of set-top digital cable boxes. Prevue Interactive would later become TV Guide Network, and then i-Guide.

Nothing about TiVo and any EPG or IPG.

Gemstar history;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemstar..._International
Quote:


Gemstar, (founded by Henry Yuen, Daniel Kwoh and Wilson Cho), merged with TV Guide, Inc. (formerly United Video Satellite Group), in July, 2000.

Quote:


December 7, 2007, Gemstar signed a definitive agreement to be acquired by Macrovision (now Rovi Corporation)

A IPG patent filed in 2004, issued in 2009;
http://www.google.com.hk/patents/US7562377

Article on Rovi extending their IPG (Interactive Program Guide) to NDS;
http://www.globenewswire.com/newsroo....html?d=253262

Interesting about this "NDS" and who/what owns it;
Quote:


NDS Group Ltd. is a private company owned by the Permira Funds and News Corporation.


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post #6 of 93 Old 04-29-2012, 09:56 AM - Thread Starter
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So, my question is;
Just what can or can not a manufacture/importer/seller of a DVR do and/or design into a DVR, namely the program Guide, without getting sued?

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post #7 of 93 Old 04-29-2012, 10:38 AM
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Interesting reading.
"Time warp" just sounds like the Sony "time shifting", though the buffering is different.
I tend to think the move to digital TV has negated some of their patent, where it may have had more merit with analog sources.

A.K.A. VOS
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post #8 of 93 Old 04-29-2012, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by videobruce View Post

So, my question is;
Just what can or can not a manufacture/importer/seller of a DVR do and/or design into a DVR, namely the program Guide, without getting sued?

According to Tivo - nothing. According the Federal District in East Texas (where most of these suits get filed) - the same.

At this point in time - if you don't want to get sued by Tivo - you're going to have to wait until their '389 patent expires (in 2017). Either that or license their technology.

Or you could just ignore any / all lawsuits and go for it any anyway - but I don't recomend this.


Don't blame me- it's our screwy patent system and lawyers that are the problem.

I'm with you that the DVR is an "Obvious invention", but the patent system doesn't believe so.

It would be easier to buy out tivo than to design a workwround that any court will not say is an infringement.

You CAN put antennas on your owned and/or controlled property...
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

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post #9 of 93 Old 04-29-2012, 01:26 PM - Thread Starter
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I think Ford should sue GM & Toyota (and others) for the automobile, since after all, Ford was first.
Then we can get all the inventors of all the other appliances, electronic and mechanical to do the same. One manufacture for every product out there.

This is a 2nd reason why I have little use for TiVo. Pure greed. If you can't make money off your product, sue someone. I'd love to find out just who are on these juries.
Gee, I wonder why TiVo is loosing customers.

 

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post #10 of 93 Old 04-29-2012, 01:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


I tend to think the move to digital TV has negated some of their patent, where it may have had more merit with analog sources.

Unfortunately, it's just the opposite according to patent 6233389.
Unbelievable legal text regarding "buffering" for starters.

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post #11 of 93 Old 04-29-2012, 02:00 PM
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Tivo's '389 patent ought to be held up as a shining example of how to write a patent in all law schools.

You CAN put antennas on your owned and/or controlled property...
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

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post #12 of 93 Old 04-29-2012, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by videobruce View Post

This is a 2nd reason why I have little use for TiVo. Pure greed. If you can't make money off your product, sue someone. I'd love to find out just who are on these juries.
Gee, I wonder why TiVo is loosing customers/

Never had, used, or cared much about TiVo, but if you have a patent, it sort of falls on you to protect it, so I can't fault them.

A.K.A. VOS
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post #13 of 93 Old 04-29-2012, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by videobruce View Post

Gee, I wonder why TiVo is loosing customers/

Tom Rogers, President and CEO of TiVo, said, "This was a break-out year for TiVo on a number of fronts. First, we increased total net subscriptions by 234,000 in the fourth quarter, the highest quarterly increase in close to six years, which led to an increase in overall net subscriptions of 11% year-over-year and we expect this growth to continue.

Second, we extended our leadership position in the advanced television space by substantially increasing the number of major domestic and international operators that TiVo is now deploying with, including Virgin Media, Charter, DIRECTV, ONO, Suddenlink, RCN, and Grande.

Third, we proved that our intellectual property has significant value, as consideration from two settlements has now totaled over $800 million to date. And finally, we translated this success into significant profit in the last fiscal year, highlighted by Adjusted EBITDA of $147 million and net income of $102 million.


http://investor.tivo.com/phoenix.zht...cle&id=1664735


CHANGING HANDS: After buying patents from AOL for $1 billion, Microsoft is selling most of them to Facebook for $550 million.

EXCHANGE: Facebook will also get a license to use the rest of the AOL Inc. patents that Microsoft bought. Similarly, Microsoft Corp. will get a license to use the patents Facebook is buying.

WHAT THIS MEANS: Microsoft gets to recoup some of its costs, and Facebook continues to build its portfolio of intellectual property to thwart lawsuits.

http://news.yahoo.com/summary-box-mi...--finance.html

Such is business.
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post #14 of 93 Old 04-29-2012, 06:47 PM
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There have been a few, non-TiVo, standalone, OTA HD-DVR's that have come out over the years, and they're still coming.

I'm sensing some misdirected anger here.

As far as having "a guide", since some of the above-mentioned DVR's have PSIP guides, maybe you need to get on your local stations about properly maintaining their PSIP and time signals.

Rovi (or whatever they are now) wasn't interested in maintaining the non-internet supplied TVGOS signal forever.
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post #15 of 93 Old 04-29-2012, 06:58 PM
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I would guess that Tivo's patent is exactly why there are not many OTA DVRs available at this time - unless you are subscribing to a multichannel service (cable / DBS), the usual consumer does not have access to any "easy to use" method to record OTA shows.

You CAN put antennas on your owned and/or controlled property...
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

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post #16 of 93 Old 04-29-2012, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooper View Post

I would guess that Tivo's patent is exactly why there are not many OTA DVRs available at this time - unless you are subscribing to a multichannel service (cable / DBS), the usual consumer does not have access to any "easy to use" method to record OTA shows.

Such as this? Oh and the usual consumer subscribes to cable, satellite, etc and has no need for something else.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post20944134
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post #17 of 93 Old 04-29-2012, 07:55 PM
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Intellectual property is the lifeblood of any technology business be it electronics, pharmaceuticals, chemicals, materials etc. Any company that does not protect its IP from piracy will find itself out of business. TiVo has not only the right but the responsibility to their stakeholders to protect their IP and make a profit from their investment. Microsoft is far more aggressive than TiVo and has managed to keep the PC OS market buttoned up since the days of DOS.

This TiVo patent nonsense comes up in cycles. The real issue is always not "evil TiVo" but that people want cheap DVR's. They want $99 chinese boxes they can buy at walmart. Since there aren't any, you have to blame someone so TiVo must be the cause of it all since they hold the patents -- patents that they are willing to freely license and not use to squash any would-be competition. It's not like TiVo is the only game in town. Aside from TiVo, there is/was Moxi, CM-7000 and now CM-7400 (Ceton's box may be coming soon) -- add in all the cable co and sat co rented DVRs. Oh wait, none of them are walmart cheap; in fact they are all rather costly -- so it must be TiVo's fault that they cost so much. If it wasn't for TiVo, the chinese would be flooding the US market with cheap DVRs and fighting each other to get them on walmarts shelf -- yeah, right. Dream on, and keep blaming TiVo.
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post #18 of 93 Old 04-29-2012, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rammitinski View Post

I'm sensing some misdirected anger here.

No kidding.

Bottom line is that TiVo keeps winning or taking settlements for these lawsuits. IIRC, they haven't lost one as yet.

Following the logic of the OP, we should now blame the judicial system for upholding all those rulings.

Good for TiVo.

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post #19 of 93 Old 04-29-2012, 08:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

Intellectual property is the lifeblood of any technology business be it electronics, pharmaceuticals, chemicals, materials etc. Any company that does not protect its IP from piracy will find itself out of business. TiVo has not only the right but the responsibility to their stakeholders to protect their IP and make a profit from their investment. Microsoft is far more aggressive than TiVo and has managed to keep the PC OS market buttoned up since the days of DOS.

This TiVo patent nonsense comes up in cycles. The real issue is always not "evil TiVo" but that people want cheap DVR's. They want $99 chinese boxes they can buy at walmart. Since there aren't any, you have to blame someone so TiVo must be the cause of it all since they hold the patents -- patents that they are willing to freely license and not use to squash any would-be competition. It's not like TiVo is the only game in town. Aside from TiVo, there is/was Moxi, CM-7000 and now CM-7400 (Ceton's box may be coming soon) -- add in all the cable co and sat co rented DVRs. Oh wait, none of them are walmart cheap; in fact they are all rather costly -- so it must be TiVo's fault that they cost so much. If it wasn't for TiVo, the chinese would be flooding the US market with cheap DVRs and fighting each other to get them on walmarts shelf -- yeah, right. Dream on, and keep blaming TiVo.

Thanks for expounding on what should be common sense to anyone who observes the consumer DVR market.

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post #20 of 93 Old 04-29-2012, 09:06 PM
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It seems TiVo may not have been the first or the one and only at the time.

I've heard many talk of Replay TV: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReplayTV

Of merit: "The first ReplayTV model was introduced in January 1999 during the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas, at the same time as a competing DVR model from rival company TiVo. "

A.K.A. VOS
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post #21 of 93 Old 04-30-2012, 04:26 AM
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Yes, and all the RTV patents were bought up by D* after RTV/Sonicblue/DNNA stopped making DVRs, and D* also has cross-licensing agreements with Tivo.

RTV and Tivo essentially created this market, so it's no surprise that Tivo would attempt to protect it.
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post #22 of 93 Old 04-30-2012, 04:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Tom Rogers, President and CEO of TiVo, said, "This was a break-out year for TiVo on a number of fronts. First, we increased total net subscriptions by 234,000 in the fourth quarter, the highest quarterly increase in close to six years, which led to an increase in overall net subscriptions of 11% year-over-year and we expect this growth to continue.
Second, we extended our leadership position in the advanced television space by substantially increasing the number of major domestic and international operators that TiVo is now deploying with, including Virgin Media, Charter, DIRECTV, ONO, Suddenlink, RCN, and Grande.

Third, we proved that our intellectual property has significant value, as consideration from two settlements has now totaled over $800 million to date. And finally, we translated this success into significant profit in the last fiscal year, highlighted by Adjusted EBITDA of $147 million and net income of $102 million.

Typical corporate line of BS to paint the usual pretty picture. You actually beleive any of one of those "press releases"??
Quote:
I'm sensing some misdirected anger here.

Seems to be more 'misdirected support' to help cut out any competition. eg, the little guy.
Quote:
Following the logic of the OP, we should now blame the judicial system for upholding all those rulings.

don't forget to include the lawyers that concocted the ridiculous amount for these suits and the juries that were brainwashed into allowing them.

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post #23 of 93 Old 04-30-2012, 04:56 AM
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In addition to the patent system being totally screwed up; 100% of all TiVo technology is based on some other entities (persons) work. TiVo never brought anything “new” or “significant” to market. Hence the USA DVR consumer products are stuck in the dark ages and TiVo makes its living from “Law Suit Lawyer Time Shifting” – translation: “Money Forever Without Doing Nothing”
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post #24 of 93 Old 04-30-2012, 04:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Such as this? Oh and the usual consumer subscribes to cable, satellite, etc and has no need for something else.

Interesting just who made this comment in that link;
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Tired of Paying for Cable? Channel Master Offers a New Subscription Free HDTV Solution


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The Internet is no place for streaming video.
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post #25 of 93 Old 04-30-2012, 05:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Intellectual property is the lifeblood of any technology business be it electronics, pharmaceuticals, chemicals, materials etc. Any company that does not protect its IP from piracy will find itself out of business.

It's the extent and the amount of the so called "punitive damages" that is the real issue/problem. Hence the term "greed".
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If it wasn't for TiVo, the chinese would be flooding the US market with cheap DVRs and fighting each other to get them on walmarts shelf

Just like probably 90% of everything else out there.
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100% of all TiVo technology is based on some other entities (persons) work.

Apparently none you have taken the time to actually read any of these related patents. Every one that I have seen so far consists a few individuals that may or may not worked for another company at the time.

I've still yet to find this EGP "grid" patent.

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post #26 of 93 Old 04-30-2012, 05:08 AM - Thread Starter
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RTV and Tivo essentially created this market, so it's no surprise that Tivo would attempt to protect it.

And $800 million (according to that BS press release) isn't excessive?
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I might understand a few of these lawsuits, but they have gone off the deep end. It's seems obvious to me, they apparently have more income coming in from these suits than from selling the actual product which they seem to change every year.


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post #27 of 93 Old 04-30-2012, 05:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Money Forever Without Doing Nothing

Wall Street at the cost of everyone else..

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post #28 of 93 Old 04-30-2012, 05:17 AM
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Originally Posted by videobruce View Post

Wall Street at the cost of everyone else..

That's not big business. That's greedy individuals. People that have robbed big business blind. People that have sucked the life out of the companies that used to be the driving force of research, invention, and innovation. Companies like IBM, AT&T (Bell Labs & Western Electric), the RCA of old (not some name on a Chinese TV), and many more.

Don't ever make the MISTAKE of buying a Samsung TV..
They consider THIS
normal on a two month old set..
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post #29 of 93 Old 04-30-2012, 05:21 AM
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Money Forever Without Doing Nothing

not exactly: Tivo owns these patents and has a right to protect them

I have a friend who is a refrigeration engineer: he went to work for a company that designs and builds coolers for supermarkets. He says in that industry they spend much of their time applying for patents on every product, then suing their competitors: so this practice, however distasteful, is pervasive

Not defending it you understand ...

Do you expect Tivo to not defend its greatest asset?

my opinion only
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post #30 of 93 Old 04-30-2012, 05:24 AM - Thread Starter
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That's not big business. That's greedy individuals.

And just who makes up/controls big business?? Greedy individuals.
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Tivo owns these patents and has a right to protect them

To the extent of $800 million?

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