ePVision PHD-VRX & VRX2 Owners Thread - Page 72 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2131 of 2415 Old 03-10-2014, 08:31 PM
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Use the LAN for the clock it work better I have some channel are off time

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Originally Posted by docemc View Post

I'm perfectly happy with the guide; it's the display I'm unhappy with. I've even been willing to put up with the fact that the DVR-pal clock is 3 minutes slow
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post #2132 of 2415 Old 03-11-2014, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by docemc View Post

Ah yes; I have noted that it says RECORD instead of recordings but I had not noticed that the time does not change. Incidentally, you can watch the current recording on the media player but it doesn't save position

I set up a bunch of recordings that I had on my DVR-PA L(with a great deal of effort) and JOY, everything recorded. I figured out how to delete channels and then discovered I had to do it on BOTH tuners. Does anyone really need separate tuner inputs? I have the impression that there are a lot of DVRs for cable but nothing for OTA until the sadly defunct PVS-PAL

 

Actually, I can understand the media player not saving position while not full screen (it is actually a good idea, since most recorders won't keep preview position stored), I'd actually hate that, because just going back to the videos saved and moving up and down, that would reset the save position (not something you'd want to happen either).

 

The reason a lot of OTA recorders are vanishing is simply put:  Big media companies with non-OTA tv offerings.

 

Imagine, you're a company making a recorder, who are you going to sell to, the thousands of people wanting OTA recorders or the billions on subscription tv services?  I know, it's the same old story, go where the money is, sadly, us OTA people usually end up buying/building HTPCs to do the work, then gripe about the UI on the software capable of doing so (I know of 3 that people hate and sadly, they're the best of the best).

 

I'm noticing a "database" error in the Upcoming Recordings.  Seems the list is showing the wrong "style" of recording for random entries (on the same station/tuner), so if you say have something set for Mon-Fri and something else set for another day of the week (same tuner/channel), it'd inherit the previous item's Mon-Fri and not what it's is to have (only visually).  Deleted recordings don't disappear (at all apparently, or there's some genie that comes in and nukes it at a later year).

 

I'm thinking the coders at ePVision are either unwilling to do anything in leaps and bounds or they're not paid enough to do so.  If ePVision were to really sit down and look at their product, with proper public testing, they'd find that their hardware works (for the most part), but their software doesn't.  I mean, this unit will record cable, probably satellite too, along with OTA (if wanted).  This unit if properly software designed could be another Next...  Rather than having a scrolling menu, a static one with all the options in squares (much like tablets/phones), pick what you want and go in to that section, lay out everything neatly with a far better design than is now.  The videos recorded should show thumbnails and when you move over them it plays the thumbnail.  This eliminates the need for a separate window and you can show a larger selection, plus the controls would work on the current thumbnail, so you could at least see what it is.  The date/time/show would be listed below each thumbnail, with the option to rename.  They could easily rename it to "Media Navigator" instead of "Record", ditch the clock in the top right (since it doesn't move when you're inside, looks like that clock doesn't move in other windows either).

 

Does anyone from ePVision visit this forum or is this a forum for discussion and (in a lot of times) venting about issues with the unit?

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post #2133 of 2415 Old 03-11-2014, 08:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Didn't that DTVPal have problems with the time change also??

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post #2134 of 2415 Old 03-11-2014, 08:16 AM - Thread Starter
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While I'm at it, the "Medial Player" window says "Record" (umm, why?)
There was an additional screen (tab/section) added some time back. Record is short for recordings, I assume there wasn't room for the full word. If you look at the background (wallpaper if you will) you will see "Movie" which was the original incorrect term.

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post #2135 of 2415 Old 03-11-2014, 08:38 AM
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Re:
Actually, I can understand the media player not saving position while not full screen (it is actually a good idea, since most recorders won't keep preview position stored), I'd actually hate that, because just going back to the videos saved and moving up and down, that would reset the save position (not something you'd want to happen either).

It doesn't save it in full screen in MEDIA; it's a bug


The reason a lot of OTA recorders are vanishing is simply put: Big media companies with non-OTA tv offerings.
There were'nt any until dish network came out with DVR-PAL


I'm thinking the coders at ePVision are either unwilling to do anything in leaps and bounds or they're not paid enough to do so.
I don't know why anyone with cable would want this; there are plenty of DVRs with cable but few for us who don't have cable


Does anyone from ePVision visit this forum or is this a forum for discussion and (in a lot of times) venting about issues with the unit?
I hope so; I agree that the equipment is good but the software is miserable. engineers typically do not know how to design software for people; it's a different art. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_factors_and_ergonomics.
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post #2136 of 2415 Old 03-11-2014, 08:39 AM
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Yes; it still does
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post #2137 of 2415 Old 03-11-2014, 08:40 AM
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Re: I assume there wasn't room for the full word.
You are being generous; they just screwed up like they did everywhere else
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post #2138 of 2415 Old 03-11-2014, 12:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Does anyone from ePVision visit this forum
Maybe as a 'guest'.

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engineers typically do not know how to design software for people
That's a understatement which covers just about all consumer electronics, especially DVR's with no exception.

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post #2139 of 2415 Old 03-11-2014, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by videobruce View Post

Maybe as a 'guest'.
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That's a understatement which covers just about all consumer electronics, especially DVR's with no exception.

 

A guest, that makes sense.  The person I was emailing had no "clue" about DST (was even stating incorrect dates for me over the course of our conversation).  And I'm actually guilty in respect to not knowing how to make GUIs look good for use (I've written my fair share of "OMG, WTF, WHY DID I DO THAT UI?" over the years, but, my current villain is documentation, I just can't write it worth a damn).

 

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It doesn't save it in full screen in MEDIA; it's a bug

There were'nt any until dish network came out with DVR-PAL

I don't know why anyone with cable would want this; there are plenty of DVRs with cable but few for us who don't have cable

I hope so; I agree that the equipment is good but the software is miserable. engineers typically do not know how to design software for people; it's a different art. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_factors_and_ergonomics.

 

Odd, mine is recording the last position in full screen mode from the quick button (yellow, know it goes to the same place, but it could be bypassing a bug).

 

Not entirely sure when the dish network came out with the DVR-PAL, but Panasonic has had quite a few DVD-RAM based recorders, not sure who's came first, but at least they got the UI right.

 

As for cable, I don't know why anyone would pay for TV period.  :)

As for the engineers not doing software design for the people, yeah, I used to be guilty of that, but over the years, I've gotten better at it, it's my sad attempts at manuals that often cause grief (which is why I do my GUIs so you don't need them).

 

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post #2140 of 2415 Old 03-11-2014, 09:29 PM
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re: Not entirely sure when the dish network came out with the DVR-PAL, but Panasonic has had quite a few DVD-RAM based recorders, not sure who's came first, but at least they got the UI right.

I believe it was 2008; they were the first ones with a tuner, actually dual tuner
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post #2141 of 2415 Old 03-11-2014, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by docemc View Post

re: Not entirely sure when the dish network came out with the DVR-PAL, but Panasonic has had quite a few DVD-RAM based recorders, not sure who's came first, but at least they got the UI right.

I believe it was 2008; they were the first ones with a tuner, actually dual tuner

 

I just checked the manual for the Panasonic DMR-EZ28, says Copyright 2008 as well.  It's a "dual" mode tuner (ATSC/NTSC), HDMI out (1080P), read all types of DVDs (RAMs included).  Had that wonderful panel in the front with USB and reset (along with SD card slot and other things).  The most impressive thing about the unit was the remote code, you could set a unit to a remote code ID (1-3), press the Ok and # corresponding to the unit you want the remote to work with for 5 seconds, then it'd light up as being set as such, the others would say their RC # on the screen.  So 1 remote, up to 3 machines at once.  Really wished ePVision had done that, would have made multiple units possible in the same room...  Sadly, didn't happen.

 

One thing the unit does do (that the VRX's don't) is "pre-boot" before a recording.  So no having to "umm, nothing's recording before this, lets make it start 2 minutes early, just to be safe" with it.  Drawback was the recording quality, not exactly "great", but at the cost and availability of recorders, it was it.

 

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post #2142 of 2415 Old 03-14-2014, 01:02 PM
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About the recent DST change:

First, the entire US (except Arizona and Hawaii), as well as Canada, switched to DST on March 9. I believe one person did correctly note this.

However, it's true that many TV devices that rely on PSIP switched to DST on February 9, one month early. These include the PHD-VRX[2] and the DTVPal/CM-7000Pal.

But this wasn't a bug in these devices! It's a bug in a PSIP encoder used by many stations around the US (probably Canada too).

Although PSIP encodes all times as GMT, it does include a DST flag. But to allow devices to handle the awkward 2 AM transitions to or from DST, it also includes a DST transition day. That way devices know to start displaying times afer 2 AM standard time on the specified day in DST instead of standard time.

For the March 9 transition, that day was set to 9. However, PSIP doesn't include a DST transition month. Therefore, the DST transition day was not supposed to be set until after February 9. Unfortunately, one common PSIP encoder inserted the 9 on Feb. 9, fooling many TV devices into switching to DST on Feb. 9 instead of March 9.

Some devices, such as the DTVPal/CM-7000Pal, reverted back to standard time on Feb. 10, when they noticed the PSIP DST flag had not been set; then changed (correctly) to DST again on March 9. (The DTVPal/CM-7000Pal has other bugs triggered by DST transitions, but this "extra" transition is not one of them.)

We can all look forward to this silliness once again in October.
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post #2143 of 2415 Old 03-14-2014, 01:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by videobruce View Post

Didn't that DTVPal have problems with the time change also??
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Originally Posted by JHBrandt View Post

Some devices, such as the DTVPal/CM-7000Pal, reverted back to standard time on Feb. 10, when they noticed the PSIP DST flag had not been set; then changed (correctly) to DST again on March 9. (The DTVPal/CM-7000Pal has other bugs triggered by DST transitions, but this "extra" transition is not one of them.) We can all look forward to this silliness once again in October.

All DVR's have issues, none are excluded.

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post #2144 of 2415 Old 03-14-2014, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by JHBrandt View Post

About the recent DST change:

First, the entire US (except Arizona and Hawaii), as well as Canada, switched to DST on March 9. I believe one person did correctly note this.

However, it's true that many TV devices that rely on PSIP switched to DST on February 9, one month early. These include the PHD-VRX[2] and the DTVPal/CM-7000Pal.

But this wasn't a bug in these devices! It's a bug in a PSIP encoder used by many stations around the US (probably Canada too).

Although PSIP encodes all times as GMT, it does include a DST flag. But to allow devices to handle the awkward 2 AM transitions to or from DST, it also includes a DST transition day. That way devices know to start displaying times afer 2 AM standard time on the specified day in DST instead of standard time.

For the March 9 transition, that day was set to 9. However, PSIP doesn't include a DST transition month. Therefore, the DST transition day was not supposed to be set until after February 9. Unfortunately, one common PSIP encoder inserted the 9 on Feb. 9, fooling many TV devices into switching to DST on Feb. 9 instead of March 9.

Some devices, such as the DTVPal/CM-7000Pal, reverted back to standard time on Feb. 10, when they noticed the PSIP DST flag had not been set; then changed (correctly) to DST again on March 9. (The DTVPal/CM-7000Pal has other bugs triggered by DST transitions, but this "extra" transition is not one of them.)

We can all look forward to this silliness once again in October.

 

Ah, so the PSIP does include a DST flag.  That explains the guide being totally wrong with it in manual time settings.  Now, I tried the NNTP (and I *do* know that it's the unit's fault for that, I've done coding for reading from an NTP server and I know there's no DST information in the returned information, its is GMT+0, up to the machine to do the DST changes).  The NTP way also messes up, with the PSIP off and the NTP on, I still get the wrong dates...  On February 11, the unit still hadn't changed back to the right time, in fact, I hadn't noticed it wasn't recording until the Monday evening, when a recording failed to go.  I went looking into the situation on the Tuesday.  Should have solved itself, but hadn't.  I don't know what NTP server is being used, but it shouldn't matter.

 

At present, I'm recordning manually, so I'm totally ignoring all of the chaos, every show I want *is* recording without hiccups and isn't giving me any grief.  I just went full manual.

 

If they add the ability to alter or create a custom DST date set for the unit, we could use the auto, but I've not seen the PSIP information stream to know what data is present, if the times aren't in GMT standard, they should have been regardless of the DST flag or not, but, if that is the case, the VHD should be ignoring the DST flag if you're not observing it (which apparently it isn't, as the time is now 1 hour behind on the guide, meaning their -1 hr for the +1hr that the DST would be adding [cancelling out the change only for the guide]).  Looks like a math mistake on their part.

 

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post #2145 of 2415 Old 03-14-2014, 01:36 PM
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Timer recordings should be OK for now, at least until October (one month before the transition back to standard time).

I'd guess that the PHD-VRX uses PSIP info to determine when DST starts or stops, even if it's set to use NTP to set the date and time itself. That would explain why it transitioned a month early anyway.

DTVPal owners are SOL on firmware updates, but the PHD-VRX firmware could probably be updated to ignore a DST transition in February (the US hasn't transitioned that early since the oil embargo - back when Nixon was president!) It could also ignore a DST transition on a day other than Sunday. That would stop it from recognizing the bogus transitions sent by the buggy stations.
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post #2146 of 2415 Old 03-14-2014, 01:50 PM
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That's the least of the problems with this ****ed up machine. my back to life dvr-pal has had its clock five minutes slow for several months. right now it is still on standard time; probably a reboot will fix it but I'm afraid to try since it is scheduling ok. Even with these problems, it is far superior to the PHD. I understand that years ago Indians use to advertise "failed PhD". That's how they should advertise this machine.
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post #2147 of 2415 Old 03-14-2014, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by JHBrandt View Post

Timer recordings should be OK for now, at least until October (one month before the transition back to standard time).

I'd guess that the PHD-VRX uses PSIP info to determine when DST starts or stops, even if it's set to use NTP to set the date and time itself. That would explain why it transitioned a month early anyway.

DTVPal owners are SOL on firmware updates, but the PHD-VRX firmware could probably be updated to ignore a DST transition in February (the US hasn't transitioned that early since the oil embargo - back when Nixon was president!) It could also ignore a DST transition on a day other than Sunday. That would stop it from recognizing the bogus transitions sent by the buggy stations.

 

Technically, they've had 7 years to get it right, why haven't they, no clue.  But the PSIP DST flag could/should be *ignored* if the user opts not to "observe" it.

 

As for manual recording, works flawlessly if you turn off the PSIP auto, the NTP auto, the DST observation to OFF and manually set the clock and programs yourself (ignoring the guide 100% because it's going to be wrong).

 

I've not missed any program since going 100% manual, so for me, it's doing what it needs to do.  The guide is just "fluff" at the moment, that I've never had to begin with (the EZ28 didn't have a guide to work with, but it did let you name the programs).  I'd be happy if they'd at least add that in.

 

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post #2148 of 2415 Old 03-14-2014, 10:16 PM
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The reason I suspect ePVision uses PSIP to determine DST (unless of course you turn DST off completely because you live in Arizona or Hawaii) is that governments change DST rules from time to time. Computer OS vendors like Micro$oft have to release updates every time this happens, and if ePVision just implemented an algorithm (like, say, M$ Windows), they too would have to change it with a firmware update whenever the rules changed. (I stll have VCRs that make the transition in April and October.) By relying on PSIP, they just let the TV stations deal with it; it's not their fault that so many TV stations have screwed-up PSIP encoders.

Still, these buggy encoders have been around for years and aren't likely to be fixed anytime soon (as I understand it, the encoder manufacturer has continued to stubbornly insist their encoders are operating correctly rolleyes.gif), so a firmware patch to deal with them would seem in order.

It could be worse. The Homeworx HW-150 expects the user to turn DST on and off manually twice each year; it doesn't use the PSIP DST info at all rolleyes.gif
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post #2149 of 2415 Old 03-15-2014, 12:09 AM
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Originally Posted by JHBrandt View Post

It could be worse. The Homeworx HW-150 expects the user to turn DST on and off manually twice each year; it doesn't use the PSIP DST info at all rolleyes.gif

Don't you mean better? biggrin.gif The TViX has a manual DST switch, too, and transitions occur perfectly as a result. Automation is only a blessing when it works correctly; otherwise, it's just a hinderance. I can't imagine wanting "automatic" DST switching when it breaks your recording ability for several weeks twice each year. Remembering to switch the DST flag when you set your other clocks is much easier than remembering to check your timers over and over to ensure the DVR didn't break them in its incompetent handling of DST.
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post #2150 of 2415 Old 03-15-2014, 12:58 PM
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Yes, I suppose a manual solution is better than an automated one that doesn't work. But it's hardly ideal. I've been known to miss DST changes until the next AM, and/or to miss some devices with clocks when making the biannual change (including my HW this year). And I've been known to have recordings scheduled for overnight Sundays; that's a guaranteed missed recording unless I stay up to 2 AM to make the change at the right time.

Edit: Also forgot to mention a manual solution doesn't help with a box at another home. I set up a HW at my in-laws' home and I'm pretty sure they didn't go in and change the DST setting on the 9th, so anything it has recorded since then will be wrong frown.gif

Can't anyone get this right? PSIP is unreliable due to those buggy encoders, and NTP simply ignores DST, so neither is acceptable for automating DST changes. A perfect solution (for North America, at least) would be a WWVB receiver, as used in many inexpensive "atomic" clocks; but I've never seen one in a consumer video product. Perhaps video recorders (even old VCRs) typically produce too much interference to receive WWVB reliably confused.gif
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post #2151 of 2415 Old 03-15-2014, 03:42 PM
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It's a simple CBA matter. It isn't worth including such functionality when most people don't have trouble setting their clocks manually. They'd rather force the few people who have Saturday night and Sunday morning recordings to stay up until 2. tongue.gif
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post #2152 of 2415 Old 03-15-2014, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by JHBrandt View Post

Yes, I suppose a manual solution is better than an automated one that doesn't work. But it's hardly ideal. I've been known to miss DST changes until the next AM, and/or to miss some devices with clocks when making the biannual change (including my HW this year). And I've been known to have recordings scheduled for overnight Sundays; that's a guaranteed missed recording unless I stay up to 2 AM to make the change at the right time.

Can't anyone get this right? PSIP is unreliable due to those buggy encoders, and NTP simply ignores DST, so neither is acceptable for automating DST changes. A perfect solution (for North America, at least) would be a WWVB receiver, as used in many inexpensive "atomic" clocks; but I've never seen one in a consumer video product. Perhaps video recorders (even old VCRs) typically produce too much interference to receive WWVB reliably confused.gif

 

Well, during 2am recordings, you're likely to hit/miss, since the clocks usually go back/forward at 2am.  Sadly, the NTP code is talking to the wrong EST DST values in the VRXs, since the NTP data doesn't contain any DST values, it contains just the date/GMT+0 time, so if they could simply fix the firmware to have the correct dates, NTP would be "semi-okay".  And fix their guide system to *follow* their DST on/off settings.  Seems their coders aren't that aware of the clock usage across the US.

 

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post #2153 of 2415 Old 03-15-2014, 06:52 PM
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A "geeky" solution could be an "advanced DST settings" screen where the user could set up new DST rules as the need arises (every 5-10 years or so when somebody decides to change the rules). You could choose the month and 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or last Sunday, both for DST start and end, then just ignore the DST info in PSIP. Most folks would never touch that screen, but at least it'd be there if/when needed, even if the manufacturer stopped maintaining the firmware.
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post #2154 of 2415 Old 03-15-2014, 07:09 PM
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I actually commented on the "geeky" idea a while back, my Panasonic PVR (DVD-RAM EZ28 above) offers a "Custom" for timezone DST settings.  But it didn't need it, has "New York" as a timezone for EST and does it correctly.  Sadly, no guide programming...

 

The guide simply has to be "unwired" to DST changes, as it's still affected by my image a few back, showing "Mr Ed" on at 2:30pm when it's really 3:30pm...  I'm doing the all manual with DST off and manually advancing the clock, this being done, the thing is, if it was following DST, it'd be at the same time, it's not.  That guide is just a mess.

 

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post #2155 of 2415 Old 03-24-2014, 03:18 AM
 
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Hi:
I'm completely unfamiliar with this unit (other than what I've been reading on Amazon.com). The reviews there range from excellent to very poor. I would sooner trust the opinions on this forum prior to considering a purchase of this unit.
I've been having reception issues with the Channel Master DVR+ (a potential deal breaker). I'm considering an alternative. Although the DVR+ is fairly well designed (it could certainly use some tweaking in this area), the inferior tuners are very frustrating and take it out of contention for a reliable OTA DVR (in my opinion, at least)!
I was curious as to how well the tuners function on these VRX/VRX-2 units?
Also, what type of EPG does it have?
Is it strictly PSIP (this is one of the problems with the DTVpal DVR, since TVGOS was discontinued)?
Is it compatible with all (or most) external USB hard drives?
I'm reading that it has two separate RF inputs.
Does this mean that you can connect two separate antennas and designate which one is used for each recording (I apologize for being confused about this)?
Does it have A/V outputs (for SD archiving to a standalone DVD recorder, for example)?

Basically.....is it even worth considering?
Thanks in advance for your patience and your input!
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post #2156 of 2415 Old 03-24-2014, 03:21 AM
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Read the thread and you'll find that Smithdoor seems to be the only person who has had good results with hits. Everyone else seems to have given up, and ePVision doesn't seem to be releasing any further updates. The VRX does reportedly have a good tuner, but its recording functions are unreliable. Its only source of guide data is PSIP, so you're at the mercy of your local stations regarding how many hours of listings you receive.
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post #2157 of 2415 Old 03-24-2014, 07:48 AM
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We are in a very poor reception area, and we find the tuners very good. We are just using one antenna, and split that signal to use both RF inputs on the VRX and VRX2 (we have one of each). With the antenna signal split, we can record two channels at once, while we are watching a pre-recording (although we have found that the more functions you ask it to do at once, the higher the chance of having a "hiccup" are). The PSIP guide is useless here, so we have to program manually similarly to an old VCR. The more recent firmware updates have made these units quite useable (but still a little quirky). We prefer the VRX2 over the VRX, but our VRX2 had to be returned for repair (it was messing up the input signal and causing severe distortion). We have used three brands of external portable USB drives, and all work fine (we let the VRX and VRX2 format them).
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post #2158 of 2415 Old 03-24-2014, 09:30 AM
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There are MANY bugs but the tuners are fine. it is far more difficult to use than the DVR-pal. I have no problem with the program guide; It has up to a day and a half ahead. My unit was defective and I had to send it back. I believe they will upgrade the firmware but it is satisfactory for recording a fixed number of channels but changing things is difficult. I'd gladly trade it in for another dvr-pal but I don't think there is anything else that is satisfactory. I believe that you can output to something else
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post #2159 of 2415 Old 03-24-2014, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slprp1 View Post

Hi:
I'm completely unfamiliar with this unit (other than what I've been reading on Amazon.com). The reviews there range from excellent to very poor. I would sooner trust the opinions on this forum prior to considering a purchase of this unit.
I've been having reception issues with the Channel Master DVR+ (a potential deal breaker). I'm considering an alternative. Although the DVR+ is fairly well designed (it could certainly use some tweaking in this area), the inferior tuners are very frustrating and take it out of contention for a reliable OTA DVR (in my opinion, at least)!
I was curious as to how well the tuners function on these VRX/VRX-2 units?
Also, what type of EPG does it have?
Is it strictly PSIP (this is one of the problems with the DTVpal DVR, since TVGOS was discontinued)?
Is it compatible with all (or most) external USB hard drives?
I'm reading that it has two separate RF inputs.
Does this mean that you can connect two separate antennas and designate which one is used for each recording (I apologize for being confused about this)?
Does it have A/V outputs (for SD archiving to a standalone DVD recorder, for example)?

Basically.....is it even worth considering?
Thanks in advance for your patience and your input!

AS you may know I am a DVRPAL owner (2) and bought this to replace one of my units while it was being repaired and to use later as a backup. You will not be happy with this. From my experience with this DVR and with only reading the DVR- forum the DVR- is still a better choice. Even with the DVR- warts and all it still is a better choice for you.
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post #2160 of 2415 Old 03-24-2014, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LenL View Post

AS you may know I am a DVRPAL owner (2) and bought this to replace one of my units while it was being repaired and to use later as a backup. You will not be happy with this. From my experience with this DVR and with only reading the DVR- forum the DVR- is still a better choice. Even with the DVR- warts and all it still is a better choice for you.

Who is repairing your DVRPAL? I have one that is dead and another that is flakey
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