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post #451 of 825 Old 05-29-2013, 12:35 PM - Thread Starter
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From The Hot Off The Press Thread...


Microsoft is also in talks with cable operators, including Time Warner Cable Inc., to have the Xbox replace the set-top box in living rooms, delivering some content over the Web instead of through traditional cable pipes, said Richard Doherty, president of technology-consulting firm Envisioneering Group Inc. The discussions are ongoing, he said.

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post #452 of 825 Old 05-29-2013, 01:01 PM
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Does it keep it as originally entered or update it to the current default value.
In my case it kept it as originally entered. I had 6 series scheduled with no default padding. Recordings were 60 min duration. Changing the default setting to add 1 min padding before and after had no effect on the series that were existing -- they still recorded for 60 min and inspecting their settings showed no backside padding. So once the recording was scheduled, changing the defaults did not modify any settings. I had to delete and re-create the season pass and then it produced 62 min recordings.

I see no way to edit the front-side padding -- at least not from within the WMC interface.

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post #453 of 825 Old 05-29-2013, 01:12 PM
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You have to get used to the fact that WMC will not overlap the padded parts like . . .Tivo does. While WMC could easily overlap padding by utilizing another tuner, it won't, unless you make the padding a full 10 minutes. So I have learned to adapt and look for the beginnings and ends of certain recordings at the beginning and ends of others.
Thank you. I was not aware of that limitation. What's the point of having multiple tuners if the system won't use them. Since I only use WMC for collecting series for later viewing, I'll make sure I don't have any back to back recordings on the same channel. Collecting was at the heart of my problem -- I was collecting for almost a month before I got around to editing the recordings and discovered they were missing the beginnings or ends. This is more than just a minor nuisance for me.

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post #454 of 825 Old 05-29-2013, 01:52 PM
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Thank you. I was not aware of that limitation. What's the point of having multiple tuners if the system won't use them. Since I only use WMC for collecting series for later viewing, I'll make sure I don't have any back to back recordings on the same channel. Collecting was at the heart of my problem -- I was collecting for almost a month before I got around to editing the recordings and discovered they were missing the beginnings or ends. This is more than just a minor nuisance for me.
I've read that you can force it to use different tuners by setting the padding to 10 minutes or more. Haven't tried it myself. Kind of a pain, but that would solve your problem.
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post #455 of 825 Old 05-30-2013, 04:17 AM
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Although Google TV works fine, it was a failure in the marketplace.

That's an entirely different argument.
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I required IR blasters and setup codes, hence the "pain to set up". I don't see the One being any different in that respect. I'm sure it will be nice to have and that few people might use it, but it is no substitute for a PC with a cable card tuner because it will still require a DVR from your cable company and has no DVR capability of its own beside recording your own game play.

I guess you missed the part where I said I used a TiVo HD and it's a grandfathered rate, far less than TWC would charge. Is it as seamless as a PC w/ tuners and CC? Well, it's a one button press for live TV or recordings. Like I said, I am in the process of finishing up a PC for the Living Room, but when I picked the GTV, the budget didn't allow for that at the time and I was able to score the GTV for less than $150.

And as for the "few people who might use it", I'm sure more Xbox Ones will be sold than HTPCs, considering most folks go mobile these days. And once it's in their homes and people discover the possibilities, it will get used. If you're paying $500 for a device, most folks would want to use it to its full potential.
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post #456 of 825 Old 05-30-2013, 06:42 AM
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That's an entirely different argument.
I guess you missed the part where I said I used a TiVo HD and it's a grandfathered rate, far less than TWC would charge. Is it as seamless as a PC w/ tuners and CC? Well, it's a one button press for live TV or recordings. Like I said, I am in the process of finishing up a PC for the Living Room, but when I picked the GTV, the budget didn't allow for that at the time and I was able to score the GTV for less than $150.

And as for the "few people who might use it", I'm sure more Xbox Ones will be sold than HTPCs, considering most folks go mobile these days. And once it's in their homes and people discover the possibilities, it will get used. If you're paying $500 for a device, most folks would want to use it to its full potential.
I understand where you're coming from. I was just trying to make the point that this can't replace an HTPC or a Tivo (in your case) or a cable company DVR. It's just a Google TV with voice/gesture control. You still have to pay for a Tivo or keep using whatever other DVR you use today. I guess instead of "few people might use it", I really meant, it's my opinion that few people will go out and buy a new Xbox just to have Google TV. I'm sure MS will sell a ton of these units for gaming, as they always do. But many gamers probably don't even have cable TV, they most likely stream or torrent instead. So the TV part isn't going to be a must-have feature for them. I have cable, and it isn't even a must-have feature for me.

Bottom line is, I'm disappointed the One can't replace your DVR, whatever it may be. That would have been a far more compelling feature.
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post #457 of 825 Old 05-30-2013, 08:38 AM
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OK... if the start buffer is unique per series where is it stored? In the Registry? Hackable? I don't see anywhere to edit the existing start buffer. The theory being it reads the default start buffer when added and stores it... how about when you edit a series... again I don't see any edit for the starting buffer. Does it keep it as originally entered or update it to the current default value.
Well, I can't find it either. I guess editing those files somehow or redoing your timers from scratch is the only way. Sorry.
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post #458 of 825 Old 05-30-2013, 10:07 AM
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Bottom line is, I'm disappointed the One can't replace your DVR, whatever it may be. That would have been a far more compelling feature.

Yep there's no real reason why they couldn't using the existing DLNA w/DTCP-IP interface that the SD Prime tuners provide today, after all the PS3s do it now. Throw in their PlayReady DRM for storage and it's already there. Of course they'd also have to put a program guide on the Xbone, port over the DVR code from WMC and deal with all the customer hassles around Cablecard, which I think is the real problem. Nobody except Samsung is doing anything new with cards (and that's only an STB not a DVR), and I'm not sure who SiliconDust is going to get on board for their DLNA as a DVR client.

The real way to get new DVRs is for the cable industry to provide standard IP interfaces without cards, pretty much what SD is doing today on the Prime but with a card. But they don't want to give up control of the user interface and that means keeping their boxes in front of the masses.
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post #459 of 825 Old 05-30-2013, 10:56 AM - Thread Starter
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I believe we (AVSers) have a warped sense of the market. To my thinking the pay TV industry or companies like Microsoft won't benefit from replacing the box. It is such a small part of the puzzle it really has no play in the game. Especially, short term such as the life cycle of the Xbox One and they have to walk before they can run. Walking is giving people a reason to give up their box. At this point most people would be giving up more than they gain going from the traditional box/DVR to another form (of the same thing). Cost wise I'm pretty sure it would be a wash... the cost is going to be there one way or another. Not until they can do things they can't do now (things they want to not things we AVSers want to). 

 

After the big event, Marc Whitten, chief product officer for Microsoft's interactive entertainment business, took time to sit down with USA TODAY to talk about Xbox One.


Q: Will any pay TV subscriber be able to connect their service through Xbox One?

A: Let me first say that TV is a very complex problem, especially when you look at it internationally, just the way technology and access works is very different. The way I look at it is how do we get the TV that you already have onto the console? One of the key things that we are doing is we have HDMI pass-through, so any HDMI device you'd be able to get that content in. And what we have been doing around a lot of live content, IP-delivered stuff, you've seen that with (Verizon) FiOS and ESPN, that will continue to be big. We are just plugging away to get as much of the TV in as we can.

 

I think plugging away is a great phrase... there is no pent up demand for what we would like. The market wouldn't support it on a mainstream basis and they would be silly to address it at this stage.

 

Our only hope is with a smaller company. One that can be successful addressing a small market. SilconDust is opening a can of worms with their new tuners supporting DLNA. The missing piece is the DVR server and I'm hoping it isn't missing for long. I'll be more than happy to replace my two existing dual tuners (apparently they don't have enough horsepower to support DLNA) with their new models. Just give me a decent DVR solution (server/software) and don't mess with the video quality.

 

I'll kick WMC out of the house on the ability to use a wide variety of existing low-end streaming clients on my TVs alone. I have nothing against the Xbox 360 or WMC. I actually find it a very nice solution. I'd just like to move on for a variety of reasons.

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post #460 of 825 Old 05-30-2013, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

OK... if the start buffer is unique per series where is it stored? In the Registry? Hackable? I don't see anywhere to edit the existing start buffer. The theory being it reads the default start buffer when added and stores it... how about when you edit a series... again I don't see any edit for the starting buffer. Does it keep it as originally entered or update it to the current default value.
Well, I can't find it either. I guess editing those files somehow or redoing your timers from scratch is the only way. Sorry.

Reading the link you provided earlier, the files are loaded into a new system using loadmxf. That makes me think they're XML files that could be edited with Notepad (if you can find the data you want to change, which may be easier said than done).
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post #461 of 825 Old 05-30-2013, 12:56 PM
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SilconDust is opening a can of worms with their new tuners supporting DLNA. The missing piece is the DVR server and I'm hoping it isn't missing for long. I'll be more than happy to replace my two existing dual tuners (apparently they don't have enough horsepower to support DLNA) with their new models. Just give me a decent DVR solution (server/software) and don't mess with the video quality.
I wonder if they will issue a new HDHR-3 model for OTA that will implement DLNA capability.

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post #462 of 825 Old 05-30-2013, 01:21 PM - Thread Starter
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I wonder if they will issue a new HDHR-3 model for OTA that will implement DLNA capability.

 

They will... it's the HDHR4-US. 
 

http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/08/silicondust-announces-two-new-hdhomerun-network-tuners-with-tr/

 

CableCARD users will be left out (to a large degree) as the client will need to support DTCP-IP for copy protected content. Which isn't highly supported via the various streamers.

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post #463 of 825 Old 05-30-2013, 06:15 PM
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Thank you. I'm more than a little leery about the on-the-fly H.264 trans-coding of the MPEG-2 stream. I like my transport streams to be untouched. It is also disappointing that the new HDHR-4 CC has increased to four tuners while the OTA version still only has two.

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post #464 of 825 Old 05-30-2013, 06:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you. I'm more than a little leery about the on-the-fly H.264 trans-coding of the MPEG-2 stream. I like my transport streams to be untouched. It is also disappointing that the new HDHR-4 CC has increased to four tuners while the OTA version still only has two.

 

I believe I read you will have both options... straight or transcoded (if needed). I'm guessing many are happy with dual tuners so quad might be overkill for OTA only. In my case going from two (TiVo) to four tuners has been the best thing about switching. Quite often on Sunday and Monday I use all four of them. Being OTA only it hurts to miss a show as there are less of them and less repeats than with pay TV.

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post #465 of 825 Old 05-30-2013, 08:28 PM
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I'm guessing many are happy with dual tuners so quad might be overkill for OTA only. In my case going from two (TiVo) to four tuners has been the best thing about switching. Quite often on Sunday and Monday I use all four of them. Being OTA only it hurts to miss a show as there are less of them and less repeats than with pay TV.
You have just exemplified exactly why more than two tuners would not be overkill for OTA.

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post #466 of 825 Old 05-30-2013, 09:00 PM - Thread Starter
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You have just exemplified exactly why more than two tuners would not be overkill for OTA.

 

I agree. Technically, I don't know if there are issues trying to wrap four into a single box. I know I'm approaching a year and I have had zero issues with two and have never once had to reboot them. Installation wise it's only another network connection and antenna split. Cost wise I can't imagine it would be much of an advantage combing four. I know it would cost more if someone was looking for only two. smile.gif I guess I just don't see the big deal... again mine are locked up in the electronic closet and I haven't seen them in close to a year. Now if they were installed in your PC and taking up slots it would be another story...

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post #467 of 825 Old 05-31-2013, 05:39 AM
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You have just exemplified exactly why more than two tuners would not be overkill for OTA.

The problem is that the people that actually have use for four OTA tuners are few and far between. I'm not so sure it would be a huge seller.
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post #468 of 825 Old 05-31-2013, 05:51 AM
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it might just be in my area but wmc just can't see all the channels and some ota just don't have guides.
I have tried everything from a card to a homerun and they may or may not map correctly on channels but the wmc sees them and maps what it can find in its guide and screw the rest.
They blame it on remapping and all kinds of stuff but wmc is just ok, and they could care less. Microsoft has said its dying and they really don't care.
I have channel 25 and 26, tv is the audio/vidio and 26 is the guide, and I have to map 26 to 25 to put them together, BUT at least I can build a station and wmc has it so I can.
some channels just never have a guide and some you can mess with and get it to work, sort of.
Overall in my area at least tivo gives you all channels and guides.
I never did see much in using guides for searching with OTA tv.
Sure I had DTV with its tivo back in the day and that was a great experience, record all sci-fi movies from the 1950's OR all movies in the 40's and 50's with John Wayne, try that on WMC lol

Wow can you say ms just doesn't care and not end up in court smile.gif



ps you people saying do tv thru Xbox ....go check on the way they are saying it will spy on you and change and insert targetted ads, just to name one of the big ones.
Yep MS is your friend...trust in the force....light or dark
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post #469 of 825 Old 05-31-2013, 06:54 AM
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The problem is that the people that actually have use for four OTA tuners are few and far between. I'm not so sure it would be a huge seller.
Don't forget those of us who feed 5 or 6 tv's plus do all recording with the same tuner card. So 4, even 6 or more is desirable in that case.
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it might just be in my area but wmc just can't see all the channels and some ota just don't have guides.
I have tried everything from a card to a homerun and they may or may not map correctly on channels but the wmc sees them and maps what it can find in its guide and screw the rest....

ps you people saying do tv thru Xbox ....go check on the way they are saying it will spy on you and change and insert targetted ads, just to name one of the big ones.
Yep MS is your friend...trust in the force....light or dark
Check zap2it.com and see if your listings are there. If they are, the issue lies with MS, if not it lies with zap2it since they provide the guide data to MS anyway. If zap2it is the culprit, you may be able to contact them to get it resolved.

As for Xbox, I agree 100%. However that really only applies to the new Xbox One. I imagine most folks using Xbox 360's as extenders boot straight to tv and have no kinect or use voice control at all. So that's pretty innocuous. The One is a different ball game. As I said before, I'd rather watch tv than my tv watch me.
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post #470 of 825 Old 05-31-2013, 07:30 AM - Thread Starter
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As I said before, I'd rather watch tv than my tv watch me.

 

No one tracks viewing like TiVo (virtually every click of the remote) and I had zero issues with it. I even opted in whenever they offered the option. Heck, I even took their silly monthly surveys which had virtually nothing to do with TV viewing. For me the more they know about you the better the potential experience. When this site switched forum software I installed ad block and didn't see a one... a while back I re-installed the OS from scratch and didn't bother.

 

Just the other day one of the ads had an item I had been searching on a while back (it showed up on this site's ads right after I viewed the item on a few other sites) and at a much lower price than I paid at Fry's... that day I had Fry's do a price match and saved several bucks.

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post #471 of 825 Old 05-31-2013, 08:11 AM
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The problem is that the people that actually have use for four OTA tuners are few and far between. I'm not so sure it would be a huge seller.
How are you in a position to make that judgment?

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post #472 of 825 Old 05-31-2013, 08:17 AM
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I guess I just don't see the big deal... again mine are locked up in the electronic closet and I haven't seen them in close to a year. Now if they were installed in your PC and taking up slots it would be another story...
I guess you don't because your configuration doesn't make it a big deal. For others like myself without a wiring closet it would be very useful to have 3 or 4 tuners in a single box that requires only 1 antenna lead (I have too many splits as it is) and 1 network connection and 1 power connection. Were they to offer a 3-4 ATSC tuner HDHR, I would buy it and replace my current 2-tuner box.

It seems silly to offer a DLNA enabled device that can provide live TV to other network outlets, thus increasing the scope of the HDHR, and not provide the additional tuners to support the expanded usage. I have several potential TV locations in my home with network connections and no antenna drops. I could immediately benefit from an DLNA box with lots of tuners.

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post #473 of 825 Old 05-31-2013, 08:28 AM
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No one tracks viewing like TiVo (virtually every click of the remote)....
Absolutely.

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... and I had zero issues with it. I even opted in whenever they offered the option. Heck, I even took their silly monthly surveys which had virtually nothing to do with TV viewing.
But your feelings on the subject are hardly universal.

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For me the more they know about you the better the potential experience. When this site switched forum software I installed ad block and didn't see a one... a while back I re-installed the OS from scratch and didn't bother.

Just the other day one of the ads had an item I had been searching on a while back (it showed up on this site's ads right after I viewed the item on a few other sites) and at a much lower price than I paid at Fry's... that day I had Fry's do a price match and saved several bucks.
If I had a guarantee that the info that TiVo, AVSForum, or whoever collects info about me would never use it for any purpose other than targeting ads for stuff I may be interested in, I'd agree. But no one can make such a guarantee. There are such things as subpoenas, after all.

There are plenty of perfectly legitimate activities we all engage in, but that we don't trust strangers (and shouldn't trust corporations) to know about us. To take an obvious example, anyone here watch or read porn? Any of you have an ex-spouse? Think your ex might be interested in telling a judge about your porn habits and seeing if they can keep you away from your kids?

I know that's hypothetical, and I personally don't have any horror stories to share. And of course, to a large extent it's unavoidable in today's society. Even WMC tracks you, as I understand it (it's the price you pay for the "free" guide). Nevertheless, it's far from clear that the benefits - better ads, essentially - outweigh the risks of living in a fishbowl.
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post #474 of 825 Old 05-31-2013, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

How are you in a position to make that judgment?

Admittedly, it's all speculation, but my guess is, with the "popularity" of the HDHomerun (at least it receives a lot of favorable reviews) that if there was a lot of clamor for a 4-tuner OTA HDHR, SiliconDust would have developed one. Computer tuners are a niche market as it is. Here in Buffalo, NY, I have to order everything I want for an HTPC/computer DVR setup online. Granted, it's cheaper to do so anyway, but my point is that I can't get many of these things in a brick and mortar store even if I wanted to. When I talk to friends in the area about my setup, most people are clueless that the HTPC concept is even possible. Hell, I'm very new to this thing myself. Couple that with the fact that OTA, while it has regained some popularity, is far from the norm. The question isn't "is there a use for them at all". Obviously there is. You'd obviously buy one, and I probably would as well eventually, but if I'm SiliconDust, I'm probably not convinced it's worth the investment in developing the product.
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post #475 of 825 Old 05-31-2013, 08:55 AM
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mdavej you are correct I was stating the post above that said Xbox one and I was wrong to drop the one when I said that.
Only the new one will know more about you than you want them to (I was being kind)
And every employee at MS and the Gov will know what color underwear you have on. Ok that was just a joke...or was it LOL


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yep it gets updated but MS does not. We have 2 channels that were shut down last march, they have just now show offline in the guides but still there.
We have 4 channels that were added in april and may and are not fully in the guide and none list shows.
Like I said MS wants this to die and they are not concerned with trying to keep track of channels or changes to the listings.

I thought that some of the addons were going to make a full replacement with tv and video players but so far nothing, nothing meaning a full player with tv in a package like WMC not a player that you might get to dl some listings for $9 a month and hope they update for your area. Funny that my tv can do more with OTA info than WMC
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post #476 of 825 Old 05-31-2013, 10:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Kelson View Post


For others like myself without a wiring closet it would be very useful to have 3 or 4 tuners in a single box that requires only 1 antenna lead (I have too many splits as it is) and 1 network connection and 1 power connection.

 

There will be the same number of splits... either outside or inside of the box. Obviously, it's one less network and power connection. But at the same time it offers flexibility (placement) and scalability. I don't think anyone wouldn't want them not to offer x number of tuners in a box. Just realistically I'm guessing they know their market after all of these years well enough to know if it would favor them... they don't care about every potential customer nor should they.

 

I honestly think it's a mindset more than anything else. Sure, I'd prefer one box with one of each connections but in the scheme of things it doesn't matter... as in the solution is the same either way. Plus, you have some built-in redundancy which is nice...

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post #477 of 825 Old 05-31-2013, 10:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JHBrandt View Post

Nevertheless, it's far from clear that the benefits - better ads, essentially - outweigh the risks of living in a fishbowl.

 

I think it's perfectly clear a tailored world is/would be better than a generic one. And anyone fearing big bother has a perfect right not to partake.. simply don't try to dumb down the experience because you are afraid of crossing the street... the danger comes from the benefits and are always going to be there.

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post #478 of 825 Old 05-31-2013, 12:03 PM
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"Big Bother." I like that. smile.gif

But it's far from clear, let alone "perfectly" clear, that a world in which ads are tailored to your interests is simply "better." Even ignoring the Big Bother aspect, it creates a "bubble effect." For example, Google already downgrades search results they think won't interest you, which means you can miss something important simply because it doesn't match your previously indicated interests. Check out the book "The Filter Bubble" - it's well worth a read.

Yes, there are some advantages, and those who are fearful of Big Bother have a right not to partake - but increasingly little ability to exercise that right. Every goddamn Internet-connected device and its little sister spies on you nowadays - the only way to avoid it entirely is to avoid the Internet. But it doesn't have to be that way. We could and should have the right to opt out of any spying, with no penalty aside from the lack of "tailoring."
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post #479 of 825 Old 05-31-2013, 12:42 PM - Thread Starter
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But it's far from clear, let alone "perfectly" clear, that a world in which ads are tailored to your interests is simply "better."

 

The ad was simply an example and as such and not worth dissecting. Actually, the Xbox One was stretching the relativity of the thread as it appears to be extender less... and this tangent is indefensible so hopefully the topic will find its niche (elsewhere). 

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post #480 of 825 Old 05-31-2013, 01:23 PM
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I agree. Getting back to WMC tuners, I wonder if Silicon Dust ever considered an "expandable" HDHomeRun? It could have small slots for, say, up to 6 tuners; but be sold with only 2 tuners plugged in to keep the initial cost down. Those who need/want more tuners could buy additional tuner cards from Silicon Dust and expand their HDHR as needed. That way, Silicon Dust wouldn't need to worry about selling enough 4-tuner HDHRs to make it worth trying to market a separate 4-tuner model, and users wouldn't need to worry about splitting their RF signal to feed multiple HDHRs.
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