TVGOS broadcasting ENDS!!! - beginning November 1, 2012 and be completed by April 2013 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 51 Old 11-21-2012, 02:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Saw this buried in DTVPAL DVR thread. Perhaps it will get more attention in it own thread.

I'd like to know if DTVPAL converter supports PSIP? No more TVGOS real soon.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1099071/the-official-avs-dish-dtvpal-dvr-topic/14910#post_22575336

"Beginning on November 1st 2012 and completing in April 2013 Rovi will be discontinuing the broadcast data service for consumer electronic guides in North America. The guides known as Guide Plus+, TV Guide on Screen and the Rovi Guide will no longer have the ability to receive data via the broadcast data service. Please contact your CE Manufacturer for further details."
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post #2 of 51 Old 11-22-2012, 09:22 AM
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In the absence of a TVGOS feed, or for channels not included in the TVGOS data, the DTVPal DVR uses PSIP for its guide information.

Surely that's explained in the sticky posts at the beginning of that thread.
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post #3 of 51 Old 11-22-2012, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dattier View Post

In the absence of a TVGOS feed, or for channels not included in the TVGOS data, the DTVPal DVR uses PSIP for its guide information.
Surely that's explained in the sticky posts at the beginning of that thread.

On quick question, will the DTVPal in the absence of TVGuide data use PSIP data AND convert the PSIP guide data into TVGuide data which a sony/lg could use?
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post #4 of 51 Old 11-22-2012, 12:22 PM
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No. And even if it could, PSIP data on goes out about 6 hours into the future, many stations don't bother with it at all, and often the PSIP data provided is incorrect or so generic that it is useless.

Don't ever make the MISTAKE of buying a Samsung TV..
They consider THIS
normal on a two month old set..
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post #5 of 51 Old 11-23-2012, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WS65711 View Post

PSIP data on goes out about 6 hours into the future, many stations don't bother with it at all, and often the PSIP data provided is incorrect or so generic that it is useless.
Those are the reasons I'm disappointed over the end of TVGOS.  If OTA stations provided accurate and adequate PSIP info it wouldn't be nearly the loss that it is.
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post #6 of 51 Old 11-23-2012, 01:17 PM - Thread Starter
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So far, the only value alternative I've found is SiliconDust HDHomeRun HDHR3.
It receives OTA TV and sends it out on home network, and then you need a PC
to turn it into HDMI. Reviews show it to be a little deaf though. Don't like the idea
of dedicating a PC to this task. Maybe there is an Android tablet that has HDMI output?

We need to find a cost effective solution to replace our TVGOS DVRs.
Its a shame. My Toshiba RD-XS34 /w DTVPAL converter has been my favorite toy for a long time.
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post #7 of 51 Old 11-23-2012, 01:31 PM
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I use my tv with a direct connect antenna connection to test out the psip data. All my channels go out 12 hours, and the data seems fairly accurate.
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post #8 of 51 Old 11-23-2012, 01:50 PM
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This is very sad indeed.

First Replay TV now my Sony DHG-500 are useful no more.

I am banging my head against a wall looking for a replacement. Devices like the TIVX, or ChannelMaster or the PHD VRX or DPH100R all look like garbage. I am not very technical. I just want a box to plug in a coax and/or ethernet, see a guide to record, and pause live TV. Is that too much to ask?!?!??

So even with just basic cable, it looks like an older TiVO or Avertv Hybrid Volar Max TV Tuner is in my future. mad.gif
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post #9 of 51 Old 11-23-2012, 03:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Don't give up and go back to monthly fees, even Tivo. Don't think its that technical.

Black Friday at Amazon has a few things on sale to bridge the gap:

1) Silcon Dust HDhomerun HDHR3 box for $59.
2) Channel Master CM-7778 pre-amp for $54. Needed to boost signal for somewhat deaf HDHR3.

I just ordered these. Cheapest I've seen these things.
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post #10 of 51 Old 11-23-2012, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CC58 View Post

Don't give up and go back to monthly fees, even Tivo. Don't think its that technical.
Black Friday at Amazon has a few things on sale to bridge the gap:
1) Silcon Dust HDhomerun HDHR3 box for $59.
2) Channel Master CM-7778 pre-amp for $54. Needed to boost signal for somewhat deaf HDHR3.
I just ordered these. Cheapest I've seen these things.

I went the cm 7400 route. But it it turns out it will not work well I will give the homerun a shot. I didn't want tivo because I don't want to rely on the internet.
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post #11 of 51 Old 11-23-2012, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imcheesehead1 View Post

I just want a box to plug in a coax and/or ethernet, see a guide to record, and pause live TV. Is that too much to ask?!?!??

Yes. Guides don't appear of their own accord. The information has to come from somewhere.

I don't really see the termination of TVGOS as a huge loss, but guides don't serve much purpose for my viewing habits. I decide which shows I want to watch at the beginning of each season, I set timers for each of them, and then I delete specific timers if I decide not to continue watching a particular show. I have no need for a guide, because I rarely turn on the TV just to see what's on. As such, guideless DVRs serve my needs perfectly.
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post #12 of 51 Old 11-24-2012, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CC58 View Post

We need to find a cost effective solution to replace our TVGOS DVRs.
Its a shame. My Toshiba RD-XS34 /w DTVPAL converter has been my favorite toy for a long time.
All depends on your personal definition of cost effective. Anything with a guide is going to cost you more than you probably want to pay, one way or another. There is no free lunch for guide-based DVR's. If you want to go cheap with minimal functionality you can get a Magnavox DVD recorder for mid-$200's -- no guide, manual scheduling, SD/2.0, single tuner. But it is a digital OTA tuner and it is "cost effective".

HDHR is great, I have one on my network. But if you want to use it as a DVR you need a PC to run DVR software. Whether you use WMC or any of the other good PC-DVR alternatives for OTA recording, if you want to use the PC for playback it has to have enough power to render HDTV -- you will get up to $400-500 fast for the complete system.

TiVo is the easiest solution -- virtually no fuss to set it up and it "just works" day in and day out. I call that "cost effective". Everybody wants that functionality but few want to pay the price. Problem is everything cheaper has progressively less and less functionality.

- kelson h

The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine

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post #13 of 51 Old 11-24-2012, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ay221 View Post

. . . I didn't want tivo because I don't want to rely on the internet.
Without the Internet you have no hope of a guide -- PSIP is not a guide.

- kelson h

The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine

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post #14 of 51 Old 11-24-2012, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

Without the Internet you have no hope of a guide -- PSIP is not a guide.
I agree with your second point but I've never used the internet for my guide and my Tivo works just fine.....My Tivo is hooked to a phone line and just dials out once/day for a few minutes. True the new Premieres don't come setup for a phone line but AFAIK all you have to do is purchase a relatively cheap phone line adapter from Tivo.
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post #15 of 51 Old 11-24-2012, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

Without the Internet you have no hope of a guide -- PSIP is not a guide.


12 hours is good enough for me.
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post #16 of 51 Old 11-24-2012, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjeff View Post

I agree with your second point but I've never used the internet for my guide and my Tivo works just fine.....My Tivo is hooked to a phone line and just dials out once/day for a few minutes. True the new Premieres don't come setup for a phone line but AFAIK all you have to do is purchase a relatively cheap phone line adapter from Tivo.
Yup, you are right. Forgot TiVo still has the phone-home option.

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The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine

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post #17 of 51 Old 11-26-2012, 07:57 PM
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Rovi's response, boldface and smilie mine.  I don't think they've claimed TVGOS DVRs stopped being made in 2006 before.  My CM7000Pal DVR is a year old, and I'm pretty sure it was made in 2011.

 

 

 

Quote:
We regret to inform you that Rovi has announced the termination of broadcast Guide data in North America beginning
on November 1, 2012 and completing in April 2013. This will affect all digital and analog on screen Guides that
rely on broadcast data.

We are aware of no DVR units manufactured after 2006 that contain the TVGOS software.  
eek.gif

 


This was a business decision between Rovi and your manufacturer. Please refer to your CE manufacturer with any
further questions.

Sincerely,

CE Technical Support
Rovi.

 

It doesn't like my quoted material, but you get the idea, hopefully.

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post #18 of 51 Old 11-26-2012, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TalkingRat View Post

Rovi's response, boldface and smilie mine.  I don't think they've claimed TVGOS DVRs stopped being made in 2006 before.  My CM7000Pal DVR is a year old, and I'm pretty sure it was made in 2011.

But they're right, in that their software (the TVGoS software) isn't on any DVRs made since 2006 (and the Sony DHG-HDD models were sold last in, what, 2005?). Even if your CM7000 Pal DVR was made later, it doesn't contain any of Rovi/Macrovision/Gemstar's software, because Echostar/Dish wrote their own software, based on intellectual property that was shared with them pursuant to a court settlement between Gemstar/Macrovision and Echostar/Dish several years back. Whoever actually wrote the Pal DVR's software wrote their own code to handle the TVGoS data (which is why, as I've been given to understand, the Pal DVR does not show any TVGoS ads, unlike the Sony).
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post #19 of 51 Old 11-26-2012, 11:44 PM
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I'd expect Dish to have an airtight deal, though.  I presume Dish is still making a profit off them, since Channel Master is still selling them, and still advertising that it has TVGuide. 

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post #20 of 51 Old 11-27-2012, 07:07 AM
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Time to accept reality and move on.

- kelson h

The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine

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post #21 of 51 Old 11-27-2012, 12:20 PM
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Fine if you are ready to move on, but I'll wait at least long enough for the manufacturer to respond.  If my DVR were 4 years old, I might feel differently.  But mine's young, 3 years of warranty left, and as of yesterday, CM was still selling them, and advertising the TVGuide as a selling feature.  It can't hurt to wait long enough to see if downloads are possible via the ethernet connection, or to see if there are  options for those still under warranty.  

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post #22 of 51 Old 11-28-2012, 06:59 AM
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No harm in waiting, I would never tell you not to wait, just don't expect anything. ROVI is very, very unlikely to change their mind. Their decision to discontinue the product is based on their financial data which tells them, "we can only lose money on this" -- the opinions or desires of users who want to continue to receive the service for free, count for naught. Dish has eliminated the PalDVR from their corporate memory and CM was just a distributer. Once the F208 firmware was issued they washed their collective hands of the product and are just selling residual stock to people who still want it. Don't expect Dish to offer any firmware support for a "failed" product they have disavowed. The DVR was advertised to support TVGOS but the existence of TVGOS was never guaranteed. That would be like expecting Roku to guarantee that all the services it supports will continue to operate. The units still work with PSIP; many will argue that PSIP counts as a TV guide. Neither Dish nor CM ever offered a 3 yr warranty on these boxes -- more like 3 months. Any 3rd party extended warranty you may have purchased can't be considered as an obligation of the manufacturer.

At least you still have a functional box that can be programmed manually and sets its time -- much better off than the Sony DHG people who now have bricks in the absence of TVGOS. I will be the first to concur that it is a shame these boxes lack the ability to receive guide data from an Internet subscription service like Schedules Direct for a modest fee -- the expectation of free quality guide data beyond PSIP is unrealistic. However, the unit did not have that capability when you bought it and it was never promised, so you have no reasonable expectation that it should be provided for that model. The issue was addressed with the succeeding model, CM-7400, which eliminated support for TVGOS in favor of offering the ability to purchase guide information.

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The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine

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post #23 of 51 Old 11-28-2012, 10:38 AM
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The CM standard warranty for the Pal was 1 year, the one improvement CM made to the product.  :)  Doesn't surprise me that Dish didn't sell extended warranties.  But all the authorized CM7000 Pal dealers sold extended warranties at the time of sale. CM direct sales offered up to 3 years, and Walmart, 4 years total.  But it's not like anyone would want to swap for a CM7400, haha. 

 

You are right, there is no reason for Dish/CM/Rovi to fix 'my' problem, even for a paid online subscription.  Too many headaches on the service side of things.  Sony might do it for customer service, but Dish/CM have already burned their bridges, and Rovi never supported even their paid guide customers.  Maybe a third party guide provider could use the Pal's ethernet connection, but if it takes cooperation from Dish/CM/Rovi, that won't happen.  The profit for them is in selling a new recorder and claiming new royalties.

 

So I am making an attitude change, lol.  I am lucky to have more than one time option.  Station times here are accurate and when the clock breaks, engineers are responsive.  A couple stations provide 3 days of PSIP, which may improve the chances that others will provide more if enough people ask for it.

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post #24 of 51 Old 12-10-2012, 02:36 PM
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Got the official response from Channel Master.  As expected, they say it's out of their control, and  "the CM7000PAL will not support Web delivered TVGOS now or in the future."  

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post #25 of 51 Old 02-10-2013, 08:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Looks like TVGOS ends in Atlanta on 2/12/2013. My schedule updates ended a few days ago and two days till no more.
Thanks ROVI for turning my TVGOS DVR into a brick. mad.gif

Converted over to a dedicated Win7 PC with Windows Media Center and SiliconDust receiver.
May try to replace WMC with XMBC, but it seems not so seemless.

A dedicated DVR is more user friendly, but they don't exist anymore
unless you are willing to pay monthly fee for a TIVO.

Isn't technology supposed to move forward, not backward?

Back to the dark ages.
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post #26 of 51 Old 02-10-2013, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CC58 View Post

Isn't technology supposed to move forward, not backward?

It is. Subscription services are more lucrative for companies than one-time hardware or software sales. Nobody said that the end user would be the one to benefit from technology moving forward; it's the corporations that do, especially in this current technological environment where Internet-based services are disrupting the old business models for content delivery.
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post #27 of 51 Old 02-10-2013, 01:55 PM
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It isn't just DVRs which carried the TVGOS logo and promise of service.. there are HDTVs too.

I don't know about this legally, but if I bought some hardware who at least partially gained my sale due to the advertisement of TVGOS as being a standard function of my purchase, isn't both Rovi and the gear manufacturer and possibly the seller responsible for providing what they promised or be subject to a huge class action lawsuit?

Seems like those of us with components featuring TVGOS as a standard benefit deserve some sort of refund or a replacement unit which has a guide...?
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post #28 of 51 Old 02-10-2013, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
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... isn't both Rovi and the gear manufacturer and possibly the seller responsible for providing what they promised or be subject to a huge class action lawsuit?

Oh yeah. Every company down the line could be subject to a huge class action lawsuit. The only problem is that we consumers will only gain a $25 coupon to use toward purchase of still more electronics. The lawyers involved however, will make out like bandits . . . eek.gif

Don't ever make the MISTAKE of buying a Samsung TV..
They consider THIS
normal on a two month old set..
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post #29 of 51 Old 02-10-2013, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Morris View Post

It isn't just DVRs which carried the TVGOS logo and promise of service..
Please produce that promise of service. Please show a warranty for any device that supports TVGOS that says the manufacturer guarantees TVGOS service for some period of time let alone the life of the device. More than likely you will find a disclaimer that says it cannot be guaranteed and may not be available in all areas.

It all comes down to Caveat Emptor
Quote:
Latin: "let the buyer beware"
The principle that the seller of a product cannot be held responsible for its quality unless it is guaranteed in a warranty.

The principle that the buyer must bear the risk for the quality of goods purchased unless they are covered by the seller's warranty

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post #30 of 51 Old 02-10-2013, 04:30 PM
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Every other recording device ever made with TVGOS has manual clock/event timer setting capabilies, except the Sony DVR's.
 
TVGOS has been around since the mid-90's. It's had a pretty long run.
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