Impressions of the WSR DTheater Festival - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 163 Old 06-11-2002, 10:06 AM
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I hope Dreamworks wakes up and realizes that we all want GLADIATOR. The Haunting and peacemaker are not good movies. The Haunting is one of the worst movies I have ever seen.
Ditto that!

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I will say one thing that sucks about the JVC deck that I wasn't aware of (until Joe Kane pointed it out): It has low pass filters on the component video outputs. This will have an effect on picture quality, and Joe is trying to convince JVC to remove them.
How appalling? I wonder what it took to find that out? Did JVC tell him directly, or did he find out via HD material and test patterns? That kinda sucks. I'm not sure to what extent this affects the picture, but anything that degrades the image in the signal path is not good.

Brian,

Can you elaborate more on what effect the low-pass filters has on the HD output?

Thanks.

Troy

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post #92 of 163 Old 06-11-2002, 10:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Gary,
This may or may not be the time or place for this but since you are here I thought I'd bring it up. Since you are still very early in the review of HD material, I have a request/suggestion. Certain parameters like pixelization, edge enhancement, alaising etc do not seem to lend themselves particularly well to the use of the narrative style. A 0-10 scale seems more revealing at least to me and certainly less subjective than statements such as "edge enhancement, although present, isn't distracting" which doesn't give one much to hold onto. The 1-5 scale overall also just doesn't seem to give the latitude to really separate the men from the boys as far as PQ is concerned. Would you consider applying the idea of reference at one end and for now this may be U-571. The bar could still be raised as reference may improve ( but after your review of this compared to the D 5 this doesn't seem to be likely). If you read around on the software forum there are some folks who have set a short list of reference DVD for example and when a comment is made such as it has EE as low as the Pledge ,for example, we all know that this is a very film like disc. Just a thought, but please comment if time permits.
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post #93 of 163 Old 06-11-2002, 11:27 AM
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Hello AVS Forum members. Rob Robinson here. I'm the Director of Sales for D-BOX Technology, manufacturers of the Odyssee® Motion Simulator some of you experienced at WSR this past weekend (I was in attendance both days) and I just wanted to correct a misconception about our technology.

Odyssee is NOT a transducer-based system or a bass shaker. It is a true motion simulator which lifts seating and occupants with four motor-driven Actuators (one at each corner) and moves them at up to 2 Gs of acceleration in perfect synchronization with onscreen action and sound.

While we recognize that the dramatic effects created by Odyssee are not for everyone I have been extremely pleased by the fact that in the hundreds of demonstrations I've personally conducted I have received negative reactions from considerably less than 1% of those who've had an opportunity to try Odyssee. With about 100 systems now installed in high-end home theaters around the world we know that there are many who agree with us that Odyssee adds an exciting new level of emotional involvement to the home theater experience.

We're thrilled to have been invited by WSR to be participants in last weekend's D-VHS®/D-Theater® Movie Festival and are proud to be part of the permanent installation in their Holosonic "Dream Theater". Our thanks to Gary, Marlene and Perry and the rest of the outstanding staff at WSR as well as the JVC and the rest of the manufacturers and studios who participated and last, but far from least, the dedicated movie and home theater buffs who attended this event.

Anyone with additional questions about Odyssee can get more information at our website:

http://www.d-box.com

I welcome any questions, comments, suggestions about films to add to our growing list of encoded movies (120+ and growing by 8-10 per month), etc. - either by posts to this site or directly by email:

Rob2@r2mg.com

There will be a major review of our technology in an upcoming issue of WSR but, as those of you who attended this weekend already know, Gary and his staff are very enthusiastic about Odyssee so you can expect it to be positive and supportive.

Rob Robinson
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post #94 of 163 Old 06-11-2002, 11:29 AM
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Okay, have to ask. How much is the Odyssee?

Dave
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post #95 of 163 Old 06-11-2002, 11:34 AM
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Using D-Theater encryption on "Digital Video Essentials" would be a really stupid move.

Doing so would essentially shut out sales to legacy Panasonic PV-HD1000 owners and to Mitsubishi users as well.

It also insures that there would be essentially no sales to the large Japanese and Korean markets as well.

If the tape is 5c 'copy never' encrypted it will be uncopyable and unable to be manipulated by HTPCs.

Going over the top with D-Theater as well will merely strangle sales in the cradle and make it unlikely that Joe Kane will ever break even on the production.

5c is a quite secure system and has been incorporated into every D-VHS HD VCR that has been built, including the PV-HD1000.

Joe,
Suggest you rethink this one...

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post #96 of 163 Old 06-11-2002, 11:42 AM
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Dave,

MSRP for the basic Odyssee 1.4 system (single seating area) is $20,000 which includes one (1) Kinetronâ„¢ Controller, four (4) Kinetron Actuators and an infrared remote. A single Controller can activate up to four seating areas (typically an area of up to 4'x8' weighing up to 1,600 lbs) and the add-on Actuators for additional areas have an MSRP of $15,000 per set of four.

In September we'll begin shipping the XL (for Xtra Lift) versions of Odyssee with a weight capacity of 2,400 lbs per seating area and an additional 1/4" of vertical lift (for a total of 7/8" from center or 1 3/4" overall). Odyssee XL systems will have an MSRP which is $5,000 higher per seating area than standard Odyssee (i.e., Odyssee 1.4XL will be $25,000, Odyssee 1.8XL will be $45,000, etc.). Odyssee XL systems will utilize the same Controller and motion codes as standard Odyssee and can be "mixed and matched" so as to allow for systems with a combination of seating arrangements.

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post #97 of 163 Old 06-11-2002, 01:10 PM
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tmitchmd,

Or (flippin the perverbial coin for a moment), it would spawn other manufactuers to adopt the D-Theater encryption on their new hardware.

Quote:
5c is a quite secure system...
Joe may have some understanding of just how good digital pirates can be and wants to provide that 'extra' layer of protection for his software. We all know that it will only be a matter of time before 5C is broken and illegal copies of software will fill up gigs of space on servers and harddrives.

D-Theater may be defeated as well, but then that would be two decryption schemes that one would have to defeat to get a simple copy...

Quote:
Doing so would essentially shut out sales to legacy Panasonic PV-HD1000 owners and to Mitsubishi users as well.

It also insures that there would be essentially no sales to the large Japanese and Korean markets as well.
That's the same thing that D-Theater encrypted movies are doing, no one seems to have a problem with those.

Troy

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post #98 of 163 Old 06-11-2002, 01:41 PM
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It has low pass filters on the component video outputs.
All digital devices have LPFs on the output, this is required. What Joe probably means is he wants to see higher quality filters that don't roll-off as quickly or as much.

LPFs are there to remove images. An anti-aliasing filter is used on the encode side and an anti-imaging (LPF) is used on the decode side. The anti-imaging filter should match the anti-aliasing filter.

The beauty of DVI is these filters are not needed at all.
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post #99 of 163 Old 06-11-2002, 02:07 PM
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Since DVI also means no recording, I will take the filters anyday.

dave
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post #100 of 163 Old 06-11-2002, 02:23 PM
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Since Joe Kane's ultimate goal is to provide the public w/the best video quality possible, D-Theater is the only medium of delivery, for now.

Pics of my HT and equipment list.
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post #101 of 163 Old 06-11-2002, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by sspears


All digital devices have LPFs on the output, this is required. What Joe probably means is he wants to see higher quality filters that don't roll-off as quickly or as much.

LPFs are there to remove images. An anti-aliasing filter is used on the encode side and an anti-imaging (LPF) is used on the decode side. The anti-imaging filter should match the anti-aliasing filter.

The beauty of DVI is these filters are not needed at all.
sspears,

You beat me to it. If you have a CRT then often these filters aren't neccessary because the CRT itself will filter things properly, but with fixed panel displays if the dot clocks between source and display aren't perfectly alligned you get all sorts of weird sampling effects if the source doesn't have any filtering. Now how much filter should it have is debateable but completely removing them is usually a bad idea.

The filtering is also often for EMI compliance as well.

-Mr. Wigggles

PS. I agree about the DVI as well. It should remove a lot of the headaches us digital display people have.

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post #102 of 163 Old 06-11-2002, 02:52 PM
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AllenD- It's hard to imagine the lower bit rate of DVHS would have any impact on stationary test patterns. In conversation, Joe Kane stated that he could not release Video Essentials in 5C DVHS format because it was too easy to copy.

-Roger
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post #103 of 163 Old 06-11-2002, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by bwiklem
I will say one thing that sucks about the JVC deck that I wasn't aware of (until Joe Kane pointed it out): It has low pass filters on the component video outputs. This will have an effect on picture quality, and Joe is trying to convince JVC to remove them.

WOW! If that kind of unparalleled picture quality is attainable with low pass filters, I can't imagine what it's like without it. I wonder what kind of VISIBLE effect it actually has and to what degree. I bet it's VERY minor.
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post #104 of 163 Old 06-11-2002, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Troy LaMont

Joe may have some understanding of just how good digital pirates can be and wants to provide that 'extra' layer of protection for his software. We all know that it will only be a matter of time before 5C is broken.



Troy
Jeez.
If Joe Kane is THAT worried about piracy of his 'test tape' then maybe it should only be available for special showings in his own home theater.

Thank God Mark Cuban does not share this kind of paranoia.

Somehow, I am a bit skeptical that these so called "digital pirates" are so hard at work on breaking 5c for the express purpose of copying Joe Kane's test patterns!:rolleyes:

"Dammit Jim, I'm a doctor not an engineer."
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post #105 of 163 Old 06-11-2002, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by tmitchmd
Somehow, I am a bit skeptical that these so called "digital pirates" are so hard at work on breaking 5c for the express purpose of copying Joe Kane's test patterns!:rolleyes:
He thinks very highly of his own stuff.:D :D

-Roger
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post #106 of 163 Old 06-11-2002, 06:29 PM
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Low pass filters on the 30000..arrggg:(
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post #107 of 163 Old 06-11-2002, 06:38 PM
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Hi All,
I like to provide you guys with some facts about D-VHS standard.
Please see the following link
JVC D-VHS Standard.

Now here is my comments.
You all are being told that to have 28M Bit D-VHS that you have to have this D-Theater copy-protection stuff. Its not true.!

Any VCR that carries the D-VHS logo has to meet the standard. And the standard spec is 28M bits/sec. And any HD set/STB with Firewire interfaces has to be able to decode the 28M Bit/sec MPEG2 data stream.

So here is DIVX all over again. In order to play these D-Theater tapes you have to buy special hardware which cost a bundle!

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post #108 of 163 Old 06-11-2002, 06:39 PM
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Alan,
Don't worry about these filters! Have you seen the picture yet?? If this is what low pass filters do, BRING ON THE FILTERS! We're talking about a format that, according to WSR, is already virtually indistinguishable from the D5 studio master!! Me thinks we get to anal about this stuff. :)

Bruce,
DIVX was an ENTIRELY different concept. C'mon now! in order to play DVDs we need special hardware. In order to play mini-DV we need special hardware. EVERY format requires its own "special hardware".
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post #109 of 163 Old 06-11-2002, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by tmitchmd


Jeez.
If Joe Kane is THAT worried about piracy of his 'test tape' then maybe it should only be available for special showings in his own home theater.

Thank God Mark Cuban does not share this kind of paranoia.

Somehow, I am a bit skeptical that these so called "digital pirates" are so hard at work on breaking 5c for the express purpose of copying Joe Kane's test patterns!:rolleyes:
Mark Cuban can afford not to be paranoid.

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post #110 of 163 Old 06-11-2002, 06:58 PM
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Hi Ken,
But D-theater is not standard hardware. Mits D-VHS is standard hardware.

After the D-theater tape is decoded by the JVC deck, the firewire output is standard 5C. So guess what! If 5C is hacked, these tapes will be hacked too!

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post #111 of 163 Old 06-11-2002, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bruce Embry

After the D-theater tape is decoded by the JVC deck, the firewire output is standard 5C. So guess what! If 5C is hacked, these tapes will be hacked too!
Bruce,
From everything I've read on D-Theater (including WSR) this is not the case. The D-Theater encoding provides a layer on top of 5C (I'm probably not explaining this correctly). This additional encoding is the ONLY reason that the 4 studios agreed to this format. If you think about, and what you're saying is true, why would the studios not have released these same titles on plain vanilla D-VHS? I don't believe there's a financial gain for the studios in the sale of the JVC hardware.
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post #112 of 163 Old 06-11-2002, 07:17 PM
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IMO, the weak point for 5C is the HD1000 recorder, not the Mits. They designed D-theater to not play on the HD1000 and the Mits ended up being collateral damage.

-Roger
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post #113 of 163 Old 06-11-2002, 07:25 PM
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Hi Ken,

If there was an extra layer of information on 5C as you just said then Sony and Mitsubishi HD sets could not display the D-Theater using the firewire interface.

As a matter of fact, some members has already reported that the Sony HD sets were displaying D-theater through the Firwire interface.

Its my understanding that JVC went to the four studio's and made a good story. If this was such a good system, then all of the studios what have jump on it.

And then there is the matter of the component video output, there is no way that component video outputs can be encrusted.

Please note, that JVC is manufacturing the D-Theater tapes, so there is nothing but profit for the studios!


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post #114 of 163 Old 06-11-2002, 07:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by gridleak

He thinks very highly of his own stuff.:D :D
Boy, ain't that the truth!

They literally had to drag Joe off the stage at the AVS dinner at CES after lecturing us for ~ 40 minutes about his travails in producing the latest test patterns.

Anyone who attended should be rewarded with the 1080p tape!

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post #115 of 163 Old 06-11-2002, 07:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrWigggles


Mark Cuban can afford not to be paranoid.

-Mr. Wigggles
And I suppose the studios can't?

Well I would submit that Joe Kane cannot afford such paranoia if he wants to sell his tapes to more than the dozen of us who have purchased a 30KU.

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post #116 of 163 Old 06-11-2002, 08:43 PM
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Welcome to new AVS members 'WSRGary' & 'Rob2NY', and a special thanks to Art Sonneborn for starting this great topic. We all look forward to more news on DTheater developments.

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post #117 of 163 Old 06-11-2002, 09:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by tmitchmd


And I suppose the studios can't?

Well I would submit that Joe Kane cannot afford such paranoia if he wants to sell his tapes to more than the dozen of us who have purchased a 30KU.
You nor I originally mentioned studios.

I think there's a chance that any new 5 minute HD Montage of Images would be very popular material. Given that that part of the original Video Essentials was probably the most important chapter, I would bet that a deviant mind could put any new HD Montage of images and many of the other test images (probably very compressable) onto one DVD-R. Not that anyone would do such a thing...

Anyway, it is his material he can do as he pleases with it. I'm sure he is making an informed choice that I'm not second guessing.

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post #118 of 163 Old 06-12-2002, 04:47 AM
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Bruce,
I guess my point is that the studios are not benefitting from the sale of each JVC VCR directly except for the fact that each one provides another outlet for software sales. I think there is more to the encryption scheme than you're giving credit for. I think it would be logical to assume that if D-Theater really provided no additional protection, then the studios might just as well release these titles that would be playable on ANY D-VHS unit. The installed base would then immediately increase dramatically. More base=more sales. No, I think there's more to it than that.

I think it's amazing that JVC got 4 studios to sign on to this with the others taking more of a wait and see attitude. No studio to my knowledge has said definitively they would not eventually support D-Theater. This is not a "free ride" for the studios, they are certainly incurring costs in this endeavor (trust me, I'm not shedding any tears for Hollywood!). JVC is to be congratulated for finally getting to us HD film material that is a virtual clone of the D5 master. We should all be thankful for that and the positive ramifications that may cause long term.
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post #119 of 163 Old 06-12-2002, 05:09 AM
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At WSR we have used the “5-Point†quality system since the inception of the magazine back in 1992. I would like to continue that system so that the scores parallel each other in the search engines used for our D-VHS, DVD, and LaserDisc reviews. These databases are available to subscribers on our two Web sites, WidescreenReview.com and DVHSMovieGuide.com. If we went to a 10-point system, then surely there would be a demand for our DVD reviews to use such as well, and that would be incompatible with our legacy reviews. I thnk when one sees a “4†or “5†score, they know that the DVD is in the top category of quality, but they need to read the review narrative as well to ascertain the variables in picture and sound that each title exhibits.
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post #120 of 163 Old 06-12-2002, 07:32 AM
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Gary, at least get much more descriptive with the reviews. Make it clear where the Edge Enhancement is (what scenes) and how bad it is. I love your mag, but the reviews can sometimes be way too quick in the area of picture quality.

Quote:
A quote not by Gary: If this was such a good system, then all of the studios what have jump on it.
Yeah, just like they all jumped aboard DVD at its inception. :rolleyes:

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