Impressions of the WSR DTheater Festival - Page 6 - AVS Forum
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post #151 of 163 Old 08-14-2002, 06:22 AM
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Ron,

Thanks for the information. I have of course no idea how long it would take to break 5C.

My point was just that D-Theater *seems* not to add more security than 5C, and appears to be only a marketing tool for JVC.

Robert
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post #152 of 163 Old 08-14-2002, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by HomeTheatreMaven
I attended last Sunday's AM session. For me. by far the coolest thing was the D-Box Odyssey Motion Simulator. Everyone who sat on it while T2 was playing had the BIGGEST smile on their face.

David

I was one of the ones on the motion simulator during T2 in the Sunday morning session and it was really a kick! Like a tempered down version of Disneyland's "Star Tours".

If I had the money, it would be a must buy...

I was surprised at the close differences between film sourced DVD's and the D-theater. The only one which was obviously different was T2 and that's primarily because the DVD is so poor (edge enhancement, ringing, etc.)
Could this be because of the small display screen used with CRT? Possibly.
It was interesting to see the audiences reaction when material was shown on the huge, bright, double stacked Runcos even though the color was quite off (what's up with that? My DLP doesn't have that green tint.). I guess bigger really is better with most people (me, too).

Thanks again to Gary and the gracious people at Widescreen Review!


Robert

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post #153 of 163 Old 08-18-2002, 04:28 PM
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I went to the Sunday PM closing session and was very disappointed in the way that Gary kept bashing DLP. I have/had a Sony 1271 so I like CRT's too, but he was relentles in his pointing out the lesser black levels in the stacked Runcos.

The flaw in his position, IMO, was that the CRT picture was shown on a screen about 1/2 the size of the Runco picture. I know the CRT black level would have been still better but to make the comparison accurate the DLP should have been on the same size screen.

Boo to Gary Weber for this obvious inconsistency! I thought it credibility was significantly tainted because of this.

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post #154 of 163 Old 08-19-2002, 09:18 AM
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Widescreen Review’s Editor-In-Chief Gary Reber comments on JackB’s post dated August 19. Unfortunately, as screen size decreases so does the apparent black level of DLP and D-ILA projectors. We, in the past, have made several comparisons using the exact same screen size and as well, different screen material (i.e., Stewart Filmscreen’s Grayhawk and Firehawk material, and StudioTek) and the end conclusion was the same. A properly calibrated CRT projector will produce truer black levels than a properly calibrated DLP or D-ILA. This is obviously apparent in dark scenes and is why I am still a strong proponent of CRT technology (particularly in a rear-projection application as at WSR), though I acknowledge that maintaining a properly calibrated CRT is often an annoyance. DLP and D-ILA technology is superb at projecting bright pictures, and therefore capable of supporting much wider screen widths and higher foot Lamberts than a CRT, even with respect to the Runco and Sony 9-inch CRT projectors that we use at WSR. The point of the A/B comparisoin made at some of our D-Theater Movie Festival sessions was to demonstrate the current deficiency in DLP technology with respect to black level compared to CRT technology, and to point out that with any “constant-on lightbulb†projection technology, true black level is not possible. I wouldn’t term this “bashing DLP.†It is simply stating the obvious fact of the limitation of a “constant-on lightbulb†projection technology. The motion picture industry has had “constatnt-on lightbulb†film projector technology for 100 years (to project big screen pictures) and still there is no true black level in movie theatres, even those with the best “black†darkened environments. The test is always dark scenes, of which there are plenty to demonstrate as filmmmakers love the drama and emotion that can be created in dark scenes. In that respect, DLP and D-ILA are closer to delivering the same picture “limitations†as film-based projection. Next time you view your DLP projector or visit a commercial movie theatre study the extent of black level capability by simply comparing objects in a dark scene that you know should be “black†to the true black masking around the picture. By doing so you will become more aware of this deficiency. On the hand, do the same comparison, as we did at the D-Theater Movie Festival sessions, and it is obvious that the CRT black level virtually matches the black masking around the picture. This was undeniably evident in our demonstation of the opening credits of “Monster’s Inc.,†upscaled to 1080p. No projector manufacture, including Runco, refutes this fact, and all acknowlede the superiority of CRT picture quality when properly sized and calibrated. Many, in fact, still offer CRT projectors. CRTs are still my preferred “the best that it can be†projection technology for home theatre when screen sizes are kept to less than six- to seven-foot wide in a “black†darkened room (which is most household living environments is more than sufficiently “big.†But remember, a “black†home theatre invironment is critical to optimizing CRT performance. Again, DLP and D-ILA serve a purpose and are suitable for displaying “big†and “bright†pictures (even in non-optimized darkened environments) as we demonstrated with the double-stack Runco VX-1000c DLPs that we use as WSR’s reference fixel pixed technology with a 10-foot-wide Stewart Filmscreen Firehawk screen. They certainly display an impressive picture with typical television video, especially HD, and bright film-based video. And they do so on “big “ screens, which undeniably impresses most people who otherwise are not critical about other picture quality refinements. If that is the result that you want, then I agree that such technology should be your choice. Greg Rogers, WSR’s Video Technical Editor, reviews in the next Issue 65, October (our 10th anniversary issue) the latest “black metal†DLP technology implemented in a $70,000 Digital Projection projector. We did the review to assess the state-of-the-art in DLP technology. And yes, DLP black level is getting better, but still nowhere at the achievement level that CRT technology can deliver when the projector is properly calibrated within the limits of an optimized screen width. I think you will find the review very educational. You and others at the AVS Forum, as a group, are welcome to make an appointment and return for a more in-depth A/B comparison of the two technologies as long as you agree to post a thorough non-biased report on this forum.
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post #155 of 163 Old 08-19-2002, 09:31 AM
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Question for folks on DLP technology. In talking to folks who are looking the projectors and reading info, they are saying that after watching one for either as few as 10 minutes or a movie like two hours, they have a headache so bad, they cant watch anymore. Is this the rainbow effect I have heard of? This folks say the LCD technology does not do this? Gary, any opinions?

Dave
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post #156 of 163 Old 08-19-2002, 10:54 AM
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Gary, please break up your post into paragraphs. Being dyslexic, I found it impossible to read. I need paragraphs, please. :(

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post #157 of 163 Old 08-19-2002, 11:17 AM
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Gary,

thanks for the thesis on CRT vs DLP. Big surprise...we already knew all that :)

Quote:
Unfortunately, as screen size decreases so does the apparent black level of DLP and D-ILA projectors. We, in the past, have made several comparisons using the exact same screen size and as well, different screen material (i.e., Stewart Filmscreen’s Grayhawk and Firehawk material, and StudioTek) and the end conclusion was the same.
I have great respect for you, your magazine, and those working with you. I'm sure your above statement is true. I could also tell you that if one projector had a bias towards red and another towards blue...that having different sized screens wouldn't affect the conclusion of these particular issues. However, if one is trying to assess overall image quality between 2 technologies and keep everything relative, then the previous poster was absolutely right in asserting that the screen sizes should be kept the same. It's no different than matching levels in an audio comparison. Matching levels won't make a strident amp sound lush and it won't make a compressed amp sound dynamic...but it does help keep the variables as consistent as possible so those aspects which the viewer/listener is drawn to might better be restricted to the inherent differences between the products and not those of the presentation.

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #158 of 163 Old 08-19-2002, 11:41 AM
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I guess I wasn’t clear enough that we have made the comparisons before projecting onto the same size screen and the end result was no different. DLP projection had significantly lesser quality black level compared to CRT projection using WSR’s reference systems. We are a magazine with no vested interest in any technology, nor ego interest in a particular product technology we bought into. We are only interested in “the best that it can be,†regardless of technology or manufacturer, or price. I repeat if a group of AVS Forum members want to do the A/B comaprison we can accomodate you. We have already performed such comparisons. The D-Theater Movie Festival was not about A/B comparisons of different projection technologies, it was about how good D-VHS D-Theater high-definition can be. We got a request during the session to show the same dark scenes that we showed on our Runco CRT projector on our double-stack Runco DLPs. All our projection systems are properly calibrated to perform at their best!
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post #159 of 163 Old 08-24-2002, 09:28 AM
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I stand by my statement above. Anyone who owns or has owned(I've owned two) a DLP or LCD projector knows that if you decrease or increase the size of the image(using the zoom and focus capability) by a factor of .5 or 2 you will see a significantly different image in perceived quality, brightness, and if my memory serves me right, contrast. The black level may change negatively because of the brighter image, as Gary says, but the overall impression will be on the positive side if the image is smaller.

Remember, a kitchen top TV with a cable signal sometimes looks like an HDTV in disguise.

Jack

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post #160 of 163 Old 08-24-2002, 11:59 AM
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Jack, you are entitled to your own opinion. I thought the demo was done reasonably and fairly, although if you were doing it you might have done it differently. Due to the brightness of the stacked DLPs, I thought using the larger screen was perfectly appropriate. You can shrink the DLP picture all you want, but to me the color and black level of CRT just ain't there.
And I am entitled to my opinion. And Gary is entitled to his opinion. And Joe Kane, who has more experience and years than anyone else on the planet when it comes to video displays for consumer use, certainly is entitled to his opinion, too!!!!

This doesn't change the fact that some folks want BIG screens, bigger than that recommended for optimal CRT picture; and many folks do not have light control in their rooms - in such situations, even though some of us still rate CRT the BEST, CRT would not look the best under such conditions/compromises.

Oh - I have owned two LCD projectors, too. I could never ever go back.
And I've seen many LCD, DLP and some D-ILA projectors - and again,
to me they just don't have the real life purity of CRT in my DARK room.

Again, Gary, we all appreciate your hospitality in having us for these demos. Thanks so much.

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post #161 of 163 Old 08-24-2002, 02:24 PM
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Your welcome. Again, I think that DLP or D-ILA are the best technologies (acutally the only technologies) suitable for BIG picture projection, whether your room is dark or lit as in a typical home. By BIG I am referring to wider than six or seven feet (the maximum picture width a 9-inch CRT projector can deliver optimally in a dark room). For most people, screen sizes wider than six feet will be difficult to implement in their homes. I use a five-foot-wide Stewart Filmscreen AeroView screen with a Runco DTV-991RP CRT projector in rear-screen configuration and the picture quality is amazing with deep blacks that add so much more richness and spatial depth to the picture. This Runco-based home theatre system is situated in my living room, which has light control, and thus enables me to experience optimum picture quality in a dark, non-lit room. Again, the review, by WSR’s Technical Video Editor Greg Rogers, of the Digital Projection HIGHlite Gold HC “black metal†three-chip DLP projector ($69,995), which appears in the upcoming Issue 65, October of Widescreen Review (our 10th anniversay issue), will be enlightening to AVS Forum members.
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post #162 of 163 Old 08-24-2002, 02:33 PM
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Sounds to me that what one person is saying is that to fairly compare 2 projected images the screen size (among other things) should be kept constat.

Well...that's TRUE.

Sounds to me like Gary's point was that the purpose of the event wasn't to demonstrate a comparison between CRT and DLP...that this angle was more of an afterthought and was meant to be more of a casual comparison and nothing more definitive than that. Ok That's true too.

So the bottom line here isn't that anyone should be arguing the relative merrits of CRT vs DLP (PLEEAAASE people...whew!). I think Gary would generally agree that screen size should be kept constant when one is performing a *critical* image comparison and I think that Jack would be fine with Gary pointing out that the event wasn't *supposed* to be about a critical comparison of the 2 technologies at all...the casual comparison that was provided was done to satisfy a curiosity and nothing more.

Ok. so now can we all agree and be happy? :) :) :)

BTW...still pretty lame that JVC has no plans to provide analog 1080P output on their machines :(

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #163 of 163 Old 08-24-2002, 02:34 PM
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Looking forward to the review.

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