Channel Master DVR+ Owners Thread - Page 118 - AVS Forum
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post #3511 of 4938 Old 05-09-2014, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by trp2525 View Post

The bottom line is that we, as consumers, should not have to go through this beta testing with newly purchased electronics but it is the reality of the situation.

 

Disagree. That is why they offer returns. You have more than enough time to see if the device is suited for your requirements. If it doesn't meet your standards you only have yourself to blame. As I stated long ago concerning the exact same rant if they had to wait to release a product until it worked in every situation nothing would ever be released.

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post #3512 of 4938 Old 05-09-2014, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

Disagree. That is why they offer returns. You have more than enough time to see if the device is suited for your requirements. If it doesn't meet your standards you only have yourself to blame. As I stated long ago concerning the exact same rant if they had to wait to release a product until it worked in every situation nothing would ever be released.
Well, not quite - my Sony flat screen (LCD) HDTV is 6 or 7 years old now and I got it long before most of the digital stations in the Philly area were even on the air, and certainly before those that were had transitioned to their permanent RF channels. It has never had a firmware upgrade, and I don't even know how one would be done if it were possible. Yet it continues to work with every new station and/or subchannel that comes on the air (we've got 50+ now). The composite, component, HDMI, and VGA inputs work with everything I've thrown at them. In short, it was released, yet from all appearances it works in every situation. Clever those Japanese (and it was probably from before Sony started outsourcing to the Chinese too.)
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post #3513 of 4938 Old 05-09-2014, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by frank70 View Post


Yet it continues to work with every new station and/or subchannel that comes on the air (we've got 50+ now).


As does the DVR+ for many as posted here.


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post #3514 of 4938 Old 05-09-2014, 02:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by trp2525 View Post

The bottom line is that we, as consumers, should not have to go through this beta testing with newly purchased electronics but it is the reality of the situation. To put things in perspective, no matter how many beta testers Channel Master had before introducing this DVR+, there is no way for them to have accounted for all of the variables that would be encountered in the field environment. Things that vary from user to user include signal strength, multipath, PSIP issues like bad PSIP time, Wi-Fi signal, brand and size of external hard drive, number of local channels/sub-channels, proximity to multiple DMAs, proximity to multiple time zones, etc., etc. With all of those variables and combinations thereof you can see where problems might surface and have to be addressed in further firmware revisions.

FWIW just my 2 cents on the subject.....

Some good observations and suggestions.....some innacuracies.
For example.....the DTVpal DVR wasn't pulled from the market after 4 months. It was still a thriving product when F208 was released and remained on the market beyond that point.
Additionally, I have two of them and never needed to do a factory reset. It's not necessarily a bad idea but becomes essential only when a unit is loaded with bugs (as with the DVR+). My DTVpals came with F208 pre-loaded and were close to perfection (until they ruined it by discontinuing TVGOS and forcing us to rely on PSIP, which is a nightmare!). Sure, the DVR+ has some niceties that the DTVpal didn't have but overall....."If it ain't broke, don't fix it"!
BTW....the beta-testers are in the field and are supposed to be using these units in the "field environment" -and- I agree with you (and have stated this all along) that we shouldn't have to contend with all if this beta testing.....or even worse.....be the beta testers ourselves!
They chose to rush this unit to market and the (negative) results of this are unfolding every day!
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post #3515 of 4938 Old 05-09-2014, 02:44 PM
 
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People want to compare the developing DVR+ to the Pal with final F208 firmware. Not really a fair comparison.

Why isn't it a fair comparison?
......What happened to learning from previous mistakes and/or not releasing a "developing" product to the marketplace (to be beta tested by the consumers)!
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post #3516 of 4938 Old 05-09-2014, 03:01 PM
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LOL. Cries of "beta test" are from people living in the past. What tech product does not receive updates? From cars to bluray players to routers to operating systems. LOL.

At least you can get updates. Many products are saddled with whatever you get at launch.
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post #3517 of 4938 Old 05-09-2014, 03:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mishmosh View Post

LOL. Cries of "beta test" are from people living in the past. What tech product does not receive updates? From cars to bluray players to routers to operating systems. LOL.

At least you can get updates. Many products are saddled with whatever you get at launch.

Updates are cool (and often welcome).
......However, having to basically re-design a product, due to poor feature implementation and technical performance (after it's already on the market) is not!
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post #3518 of 4938 Old 05-09-2014, 04:22 PM
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May I make a bold request?

How about only using the bold feature when you really need to emphasize something, slprp1? Otherwise, it makes posts choppy to read, IMHO...
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post #3519 of 4938 Old 05-09-2014, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by mishmosh View Post

LOL. Cries of "beta test" are from people living in the past. What tech product does not receive updates? From cars to bluray players to routers to operating systems. LOL.

Yes, and the ability to issue updates has proven to be one of the worst developments in software history. Back when updates were impossible, companies were forced to test their products thoroughly and release them in a functional and bug-free state. Now that updates are possible, few companies bother to test their products or even finish them before the launch date, as they just assume they can release updates later to complete software functionality that they should have included in the first place.
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At least you can get updates. Many products are saddled with whatever you get at launch.

...and back in the days of VCRs, they worked correctly. Any company that released a non-functional VCR would have been out of business in a hurry when its competitors' products worked correctly out of the box. Now that Internet updates exist, companies have an incentive to be lazy and release unfinished products.
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post #3520 of 4938 Old 05-09-2014, 05:29 PM
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Yes, and the ability to issue updates has proven to be one of the worst developments in software history. Back when updates were impossible, companies were forced to test their products thoroughly and release them in a functional and bug-free state. 

 

Rather they were forced to release (very) simplistic products. Trying to compare today's tech products to back in the day is completely unrealistic and illogical. Heck most tech toys nowadays have more power and sophistication than Apollo 11.


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post #3521 of 4938 Old 05-09-2014, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Aleron Ives View Post

Any company that released a non-functional VCR would have been out of business in a hurry when its competitors' products worked correctly out of the box. Now that Internet updates exist, companies have an incentive to be lazy and release unfinished products.
I will stipulate there is a large grain of truth to that but one must also factor in the increased complexity of modern digital electronics. Modern digital electronics are essentially application specific computers running an OS and applications. How can there not be bugs.
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post #3522 of 4938 Old 05-09-2014, 11:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Aleron Ives View Post

Yes, and the ability to issue updates has proven to be one of the worst developments in software history. Back when updates were impossible, companies were forced to test their products thoroughly and release them in a functional and bug-free state. Now that updates are possible, few companies bother to test their products or even finish them before the launch date, as they just assume they can release updates later to complete software functionality that they should have included in the first place.
...and back in the days of VCRs, they worked correctly. Any company that released a non-functional VCR would have been out of business in a hurry when its competitors' products worked correctly out of the box. Now that Internet updates exist, companies have an incentive to be lazy and release unfinished products.

A breath of fresh air!.....
Thank you very much for expressing this more eloquently than I did (regarding the exploitation of the ability to release a product such as this prematurely as a "work in progress")!!
Perhaps to some extent it's not what I say.....but how exactly I say it!
......whether it was intentional or not, I appreciate the support!
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post #3523 of 4938 Old 05-09-2014, 11:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

Rather they were forced to release (very) simplistic products. Trying to compare today's tech products to back in the day is completely unrealistic and illogical. Heck most tech toys nowadays have more power and sophistication than Apollo 11.

Sorry.....but that doesn't change the overall principal!
It used to be "get it right the first time"
......now it's "get it right the tenth time"!!
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post #3524 of 4938 Old 05-10-2014, 07:09 AM
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It used to be "get it right the first time"

 

I started writing code in the '70s. Looking with rose colored glasses if you think back then software/firmware was always perfect. As a consultant/programmer/system analyst I saw first hand that ain't so. And the scope has grown from 110 baud to over 100Mbps times. I lived the used to be...

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post #3525 of 4938 Old 05-10-2014, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

I started writing code in the '70s. Looking with rose colored glasses if you think back then software/firmware was always perfect. As a consultant/programmer/system analyst I saw first hand that ain't so. And the scope has grown from 110 baud to over 100Mbps times. I lived the used to be...
I would say you are not only one who start writing SW back to 70s ... I'm agree bugs always was in your/our code, BUT consumer product's been released in much better shape then the sat/cable/OTA DVRs last 10 years
if you have been in the business, you are as a professional should see the flaw: by rushing into market (eg get the money) companies "shove" half-tested (hey, it's QA dept job !) devices into our homes frown.gif
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I would say you are not only one who start writing SW back to 70s ... I'm agree bugs always was in your/our code, BUT consumer product's been released in much better shape then the sat/cable/OTA DVRs last 10 years

 

This is more than obvious... and understandable. Back in the day there wasn't much to debug about rabbit ears and analog tuners. Today the complexity of a DVR would make those slide rulers lock up. :) Heck I remember my first calculator... it was around 100 bucks when a buck was worth a buck.

 

Quote:
if you have been in the business, you are as a professional should see the flaw: by rushing into market (eg get the money) companies "shove" half-tested (hey, it's QA dept job !) devices into our homes frown.gif

 

I see several things. The increased complexity separates the current market from previous generations. I see endless features that by nature aren't going to work seamlessly for everyone. And finally the freedom allowed by updating products in the stream affords the ability to implement sophisticated features they wouldn't dare other wise.

 

Regarding forums I also see endless bugs and whatnot often being actual feature requests. At the same time refusing to accept a product wasn't design around their unique desires. No one wants a product that doesn't work but in this case throwing the baby out with the bath water sounds far too analog. And since this is far too off topic my last comment regarding such.


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post #3527 of 4938 Old 05-10-2014, 01:05 PM
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I see several things. The increased complexity separates the current market from previous generations. I see endless features that by nature aren't going to work seamlessly for everyone. And finally the freedom allowed by updating products in the stream affords the ability to implement sophisticated features they wouldn't dare other wise.

 

Regarding forums I also see endless bugs and whatnot often being actual feature requests. At the same time refusing to accept a product wasn't design around their unique desires. No one wants a product that doesn't work but in this case throwing the baby out with the bath water sounds far too analog. And since this is far too off topic my last comment regarding such.

From Wikipedia

"A software bug is an error, flaw, failure, or fault in a computer program or system that causes it to produce an incorrect or unexpected result, or to behave in unintended ways."

 

Wouldn't a "bug" in the DVR+ software have the same effect on everyone.. ? ie: slow remote response, wrong channel being recorded.

If it doesn't effect everyone then isn't it more likely to be user variables and not a "bug" in the software as stated more eloquently by trp2525?

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Originally Posted by trp2525 View Post
The bottom line is that we, as consumers, should not have to go through this beta testing with newly purchased electronics but it is the reality of the situation. To put things in perspective, no matter how many beta testers Channel Master had before introducing this DVR+, there is no way for them to have accounted for all of the variables that would be encountered in the field environment. Things that vary from user to user include signal strength, multipath, PSIP issues like bad PSIP time, Wi-Fi signal, brand and size of external hard drive, number of local channels/sub-channels, proximity to multiple DMAs, proximity to multiple time zones, etc., etc. With all of those variables and combinations thereof you can see where problems might surface and have to be addressed in further firmware revisions.

FWIW just my 2 cents on the subject.....

Besides slow remote response are there any other "bug" issues since the 106R release?

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post #3528 of 4938 Old 05-10-2014, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by MKS13 View Post
 

Wouldn't a "bug" in the DVR+ software have the same effect on everyone.. ? ie: slow remote response, wrong channel being recorded.

If it doesn't effect everyone then isn't it more likely to be user variables and not a "bug" in the software as stated more eloquently by trp2525?

Besides slow remote response are there any other "bug" issues since the 106R release?

One would think that a bug would affect everyone the same, but not necessarily.  Sometimes bugs don't manifest themselves until a certain action, or combinations of actions occur prior.  In other words, Event A and Event B and Event C must occur in order to trigger the bug.  Whereas, if only Event A and Event B occur, then the bug will not be triggered.  One of the things that make programming so much fun.  :eek:

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One would think that a bug would affect everyone the same, but not necessarily.  Sometimes bugs don't manifest themselves until a certain action, or combinations of actions occur prior.  In other words, Event A and Event B and Event C must occur in order to trigger the bug.  Whereas, if only Event A and Event B occur, then the bug will not be triggered.  One of the things that make programming so much fun.  eek.gif
Nicely put. A bug can be considered to be a failure of the firmware to account for all possible input variations -- a daunting task. I think the best you can hope for is that the system will work fine for a great majority of the users.
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People want to compare the developing DVR+ to the Pal with final F208 firmware. Not really a fair comparison.

I am new to using forums so please excuse me if this comes out wrong. Isnt the DVR+ made by the same company that sold the rebranded Dish DTVPal? If so then the F208 firmware should have been the starting point of the DVR+. My PAL has performed flawlessly 97% of the time, but boy has it pissed me off that other 3%!


My best friend is my PAL
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Is the consensus factory reset permantly resolves remote lag? I hate to go thru that again.
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I am new to using forums so please excuse me if this comes out wrong. Isnt the DVR+ made by the same company that sold the rebranded Dish DTVPal? If so then the F208 firmware should have been the starting point of the DVR+. My PAL has performed flawlessly 97% of the time, but boy has it pissed me off that other 3%!
That would have been a reasonable path for Echostar, but the DTVPal DVR was a large heater (probably with many discrete components) that would be costly to replicate in today's world of one-chip solutions (system on a chip). So the hardware is entirely different. It might have made sense to rescue the stable and mature user interface, but it was clearly Dish Network branded and thus not likely to be acceptable for Echostart partnering with CM to use. Instead they tried to adapt what they had already developed for the UK.
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I am new to using forums so please excuse me if this comes out wrong. Isnt the DVR+ made by the same company that sold the rebranded Dish DTVPal? If so then the F208 firmware should have been the starting point of the DVR+. My PAL has performed flawlessly 97% of the time, but boy has it pissed me off that other 3%!
yes, we knew that, it's the same echostar co with same method of selling devices with half-baked FW frown.gif
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That would have been a reasonable path for Echostar, but the DTVPal DVR was a large heater (probably with many discrete components) that would be costly to replicate in today's world of one-chip solutions (system on a chip). So the hardware is entirely different. It might have made sense to rescue the stable and mature user interface, but it was clearly Dish Network branded and thus not likely to be acceptable for Echostart partnering with CM to use. Instead they tried to adapt what they had already developed for the UK.

Curious as to what the current status is of the UK model?......in terms of stability, reliability, usability and bugs? (since, in most respects, it's very similar to the DVR+).
Is there a forum for that unit in the UK?
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Curious as to what the current status is of the UK model?......in terms of stability, reliability, usability and bugs? (since, in most respects, it's very similar to the DVR+).
Is there a forum for that unit in the UK?

 

20 out of 30 reviews on Amazon.co.uk give the Echostar HDT 610R a four star or better rating: http://www.amazon.co.uk/EchoStar-Ultra-Freeview-Digital-Recorder-Black/dp/B007ZYL5ZI/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

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Google and ye shall find...

http://www.avforums.com/threads/new-echostar-hdt-610r-pvr-slimmest-pvr-in-the-world.1629988/

I love the digital transition. The voices in my head just say 0 and 1 now.
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post #3537 of 4938 Old 05-10-2014, 10:40 PM
 
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Google and ye shall find...

http://www.avforums.com/threads/new-echostar-hdt-610r-pvr-slimmest-pvr-in-the-world.1629988/

Thanks!......
Perhaps there's little interest in voicing their opinions in the UK (a good deal of these posts are over a year old)!
This forum has so few posts, it's bizarre (especially as compared to ours)!
Could it be that, ultimately, they're satisfied with the unit?
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post #3538 of 4938 Old 05-10-2014, 10:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Sandman905 View Post

20 out of 30 reviews on Amazon.co.uk give the Echostar HDT 610R a four star or better rating: http://www.amazon.co.uk/EchoStar-Ultra-Freeview-Digital-Recorder-Black/dp/B007ZYL5ZI/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

I thought that there was a newer (upgraded) version of this model?.....perhaps not.
I didn't bother reading most of the reviews but the consensus seems to be mostly positive.
.....then again, the DVR+ has received numerous positive reviews on Amazon US.....go figure!
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post #3539 of 4938 Old 05-10-2014, 11:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by frank70 View Post

Well, not quite - my Sony flat screen (LCD) HDTV is 6 or 7 years old now and I got it long before most of the digital stations in the Philly area were even on the air, and certainly before those that were had transitioned to their permanent RF channels. It has never had a firmware upgrade, and I don't even know how one would be done if it were possible. Yet it continues to work with every new station and/or subchannel that comes on the air (we've got 50+ now). The composite, component, HDMI, and VGA inputs work with everything I've thrown at them. In short, it was released, yet from all appearances it works in every situation. Clever those Japanese (and it was probably from before Sony started outsourcing to the Chinese too.)

Ditto!.....nothing seems to beat Japanese technology (in general)!
Actually.....there tend to be (multiple) updates on Sony HDTV's.....but they never seem to involve tuner related issues (at least in my experience).
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post #3540 of 4938 Old 05-10-2014, 11:51 PM
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Thanks!......
Perhaps there's little interest in voicing their opinions in the UK (a good deal of these posts are over a year old)!
This forum has so few posts, it's bizarre (especially as compared to ours)!
Could it be that, ultimately, they're satisfied with the unit?

Or do they have better choices over there? Check out this from last year: http://www.techradar.com/us/news/video/home-video/10-best-freeview-hd-boxes-and-recorders-in-the-uk-718172#null

I love the digital transition. The voices in my head just say 0 and 1 now.
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