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post #11581 of 14840 Old 03-24-2016, 02:52 PM
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Great minds think alike

Of course, left unanswered is how long their contract with Rovi lasts
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post #11582 of 14840 Old 03-24-2016, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by lewlew View Post
What's SMART?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S.M.A.R.T.
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post #11583 of 14840 Old 03-24-2016, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Greasemonkey View Post
Since I am a PSIP guy it obviously doesn't affect me. But since it seems like most people use the online guide there is sure to be turmoil. Before I got the DVR+ I was looking at the TiVo Roamio, with the free lifetime guide. I didn't go that route because I thought that "lifetime" might not really be lifetime. This also reinforces my belief that the whole PSIP system should be beefed up. There is no reason why PSIP shouldn't be a robust way to get programming information, especially if the only alternative becomes having to pay for it. So a question to you Rovi people: If PSIP was accurate (and even updated on the fly to account for football games that went long) and as dependable as Rovi, but only provided 48 hours of data would you switch to PSIP for your guide, or really miss Rovi or some other guide service if the alternative was paying for it?
It would take the FCC to make that happen.

Last edited by DrDon; 03-24-2016 at 03:43 PM. Reason: Political comments removed
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post #11584 of 14840 Old 03-24-2016, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by lewlew View Post
What's SMART?
S.M.A.R.T. - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S.M.A.R.T.
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post #11585 of 14840 Old 03-24-2016, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by lewlew View Post
What's SMART?
each time you have a question - start from WIKI or search in Internet using Google/Bing/Yahoo/etc

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S.M.A.R.T.
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post #11586 of 14840 Old 03-24-2016, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by lewlew View Post
Well, I just looked there. Thanks for the direction.

1) I have a Mac ( it says won't work on Mac)
2) My EHD is a Seagate ( it says it's for WD drives)
3) The offending EHD has been traded back to BB for one on the list.

I'm not going back to BB to test it even if I could.
OK. Next time you know what to do.
Find SMART monitoring/reporting program for your Mac in Internet.
Install it, check your Mac HDD and be ready to investigate EHD (seem to me your karma will kick back soon )
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post #11587 of 14840 Old 03-24-2016, 11:37 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeKustra View Post
It's still named SMART, as to mfgs of HDD, they could name it as they wish
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post #11588 of 14840 Old 03-25-2016, 06:49 AM
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Refurbished Channel Master DVR+

A few days ago I saw a refurbished Channel Master DVR+ on eBay. It was available directly from Channel Master. I am just wondering if anybody here has bought one of the refurbished units and if this is a good way to save money or if this is too risky?
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post #11589 of 14840 Old 03-25-2016, 09:50 AM
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I purchased one of my units in an open box sale some time ago. I can't say if it was refurbished or not. It has worked just fine for me.
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post #11590 of 14840 Old 03-25-2016, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by artisticimaging View Post
It would take the FCC to make that happen.
Are you saying that is the case in the technical sense, or that it would take the FCC to compel broadcasters to improve PSIP so that it is a robust data source? I would think that in the architectural/technical sense the infrastructure is already there, and that broadcasters and networks don't prioritize it because of the numbers of cable/satellite subscribers as opposed to the OTA peasants. If it's a question of the FCC compelling broadcasters to beef up the PSIP system chances are probably lower than if it were a business/marketing decision on the part of broadcasters and networks. But I can also add that as someone who is in the 100% PSIP group for getting programming data the head end side of the equation might not be the biggest obstacle for me. The DVR+ is very inconsistent and erratic when it comes to displaying, and very probably collecting the PSIP data in the first place. It appears that in order to gather the data the unit actually has to be turned on, and even then it seems that the unit has to be tuned to either the primary or subchannel of a station to receive the data. In my area there are some stations that regularly provide at least 2 days of PSIP data. And even though I am not a big fan of the PBS business model I give them credit for going beyond that. I record both NOVA and Secrets of the Dead and regularly see instances of those recordings 3 or 4 days in advance. To that end, CM and E* will also have to see an improved PSIP system as a business/marketing plus to their business. I get the impression that they prefer users getting their EPG via Rovi, and PSIP is just a like a pass through feature provided by the tuners, and not something they really care about.
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post #11591 of 14840 Old 03-25-2016, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim1348 View Post
A few days ago I saw a refurbished Channel Master DVR+ on eBay. It was available directly from Channel Master. I am just wondering if anybody here has bought one of the refurbished units and if this is a good way to save money or if this is too risky?
The "open box" that I bought from CM came with the one year warranty just like a new one would.
Mine has worked fine and I think it's past the one year mark or close to it.
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post #11592 of 14840 Old 03-25-2016, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Greasemonkey View Post
Are you saying that is the case in the technical sense, or that it would take the FCC to compel broadcasters to improve PSIP so that it is a robust data source?
Mostly the latter, probably. PSIP can accommodate up to 16 days of EPG data, but the FCC only requires 12 hours - and not even that for low-power stations! Luckily many do more than the minimum, but I would think 72 hours is a more reasonable minimum for full-power stations; maybe 6 hours for LPTV just so we have something.

PSIP could use some technical improvements too: right now there's no provision for episode title, original air date, new/rerun flag, season/episode numbers, or the like. But I'm willing to wait on those. Perhaps they can be included in the ATSC 3.0 standard.
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post #11593 of 14840 Old 03-25-2016, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greasemonkey View Post
Are you saying that is the case in the technical sense, or that it would take the FCC to compel broadcasters to improve PSIP so that it is a robust data source? I would think that in the architectural/technical sense the infrastructure is already there, and that broadcasters and networks don't prioritize it because of the numbers of cable/satellite subscribers as opposed to the OTA peasants. If it's a question of the FCC compelling broadcasters to beef up the PSIP system chances are probably lower than if it were a business/marketing decision on the part of broadcasters and networks. But I can also add that as someone who is in the 100% PSIP group for getting programming data the head end side of the equation might not be the biggest obstacle for me. The DVR+ is very inconsistent and erratic when it comes to displaying, and very probably collecting the PSIP data in the first place. It appears that in order to gather the data the unit actually has to be turned on, and even then it seems that the unit has to be tuned to either the primary or subchannel of a station to receive the data. In my area there are some stations that regularly provide at least 2 days of PSIP data. And even though I am not a big fan of the PBS business model I give them credit for going beyond that. I record both NOVA and Secrets of the Dead and regularly see instances of those recordings 3 or 4 days in advance. To that end, CM and E* will also have to see an improved PSIP system as a business/marketing plus to their business. I get the impression that they prefer users getting their EPG via Rovi, and PSIP is just a like a pass through feature provided by the tuners, and not something they really care about.
Broadcasters are not going to spend any time, money, or energy doing anything they don’t have to do. They have to do station I.D. on the hour and half hour so they do as an example.

The FCC would have to require it and then they would, but now they side with corporation on everything.

They use to be a watch dog for the public not corporations. Money talks in D.C.

Just saying.. Go Bernie...
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post #11594 of 14840 Old 03-25-2016, 03:39 PM
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When I've contacted the local station engineers to ask for more PSIP data, they were always cooperative. That was back after the DTVPalDVR lost it's TV Guide schedule. I simply asked them to do it, pointing out that for anyone to plan ahead on what to watch or record, we needed to see what was coming up. Many of them at the time already had close to a week's worth of data up, while other stations only had the bare minimum. Since having the DVR+ units doing the majority of the recording in my home, I haven't kept up with the engineers, and I see PSIP data is unfortunately back to a very short period. Right now my PBS stations and the local Fox and WB channels have data for about 70 hours into the future. The rest of the stations have much less.

Maybe contacting your local stations now would help restore fuller PSIP schedules.

Here is an excerpt from a post I made two years ago which refers back to when all my local channels had between 4 & 7 days of PSIP programming listed.

"The only trouble I do have here is that some of the stations I contacted in the past to extend their PSIP schedule have reverted back to only 12 or 24 hours, although a couple still have a week's worth available. At one time the 12 local stations all had between 4 and 7 days of PSIP data. Probably time for more of us to again contact our local stations about this. When I've done this in the past, they always seemed to be aware of the need for this, and responsive. Must make sure to contact the station engineers though, the receptionists don't seem to have any clue about PSIP."


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post #11595 of 14840 Old 03-25-2016, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim1348 View Post
A few days ago I saw a refurbished Channel Master DVR+ on eBay. It was available directly from Channel Master. I am just wondering if anybody here has bought one of the refurbished units and if this is a good way to save money or if this is too risky?
i bought one in the exact same fashion and have been using it without issue for 3 months.
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post #11596 of 14840 Old 03-25-2016, 04:09 PM
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Programming mystery identified (but not cured).

I would sometimes notice that my DVR+ units would record programs seemingly on their own. With the recent "pledge time" on PBS I had more than a dozen mystery recordings made on the PBS channels, which I closely monitored day by day.

The mystery recordings were all made in the time slots that I had regular PBS programming set up in my "series events" on the DVR+. I think I have it figured out. The DVR+ must add programs in your series events recording schedule as soon as they appear at the far end of the 14-day ROVI guide. So if today (3/25) an episode of a program you want to record is in the ROVI data for April 8th, the DVR+ adds that time slot to the "record" list. But if in the meantime the station (and/or ROVI's guide info) change the program scheduled in that time slot, the DVR+ isn't smart enough to delete that time slot from its record list. I confirmed this by looking at the evening schedules daily and saw the highlighted to record programs which were updated in the ROVI guide to new programs that coincided with the regular series events time slots my DVR+ units would normally record.

I think the DVR+ programmers need to find a way to eliminate this by having the DVR+ purge items on the record list if the program data on updated ROVI information shows changes.

I've also noticed similar missed recordings that coincide with mystery recordings. Some days when program times are changed programs are missed completely by the DVR+. It will record the program at 8PM even if the program from the series option list has been rescheduled to 7PM. And the DVR+ will not record the moved program at its new time slot.

Example: If NCIS in the series option list to record all episodes was scheduled at 8PM two weeks from now, the DVR+ sets up the recording time. Then if the network adjusts that time slot before the airing date to account for a programming change, the DVR+ fails to pick up the new time that NCIS was moved to, even if the ROVI guide has it showing as moved. So it missed making the recording you wanted. But it does record the program added to the 8PM time slot that you didn't have set to record. Fail!
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post #11597 of 14840 Old 03-25-2016, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by wiscojim View Post
Programming mystery identified (but not cured).

I would sometimes notice that my DVR+ units would record programs seemingly on their own. With the recent "pledge time" on PBS I had more than a dozen mystery recordings made on the PBS channels, which I closely monitored day by day.

The mystery recordings were all made in the time slots that I had regular PBS programming set up in my "series events" on the DVR+. I think I have it figured out. The DVR+ must add programs in your series events recording schedule as soon as they appear at the far end of the 14-day ROVI guide. So if today (3/25) an episode of a program you want to record is in the ROVI data for April 8th, the DVR+ adds that time slot to the "record" list. But if in the meantime the station (and/or ROVI's guide info) change the program scheduled in that time slot, the DVR+ isn't smart enough to delete that time slot from its record list. I confirmed this by looking at the evening schedules daily and saw the highlighted to record programs which were updated in the ROVI guide to new programs that coincided with the regular series events time slots my DVR+ units would normally record.

I think the DVR+ programmers need to find a way to eliminate this by having the DVR+ purge items on the record list if the program data on updated ROVI information shows changes.

I've also noticed similar missed recordings that coincide with mystery recordings. Some days when program times are changed programs are missed completely by the DVR+. It will record the program at 8PM even if the program from the series option list has been rescheduled to 7PM. And the DVR+ will not record the moved program at its new time slot.

Example: If NCIS in the series option list to record all episodes was scheduled at 8PM two weeks from now, the DVR+ sets up the recording time. Then if the network adjusts that time slot before the airing date to account for a programming change, the DVR+ fails to pick up the new time that NCIS was moved to, even if the ROVI guide has it showing as moved. So it missed making the recording you wanted. But it does record the program added to the 8PM time slot that you didn't have set to record. Fail!
This is nothing new. I've noticed it for quite some time. I've just learned to double-check my scheduled recordings. For example, I've got Castle, ABC Monday at 9:00PM Central, set up for Record New Episodes. Due to a programming change by ABC, my DVR+ is currently set to record an episode of The Catch, in the same time slot. I know that I need to delete that scheduled recording.
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post #11598 of 14840 Old 03-25-2016, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by JHBrandt View Post
Mostly the latter, probably. PSIP can accommodate up to 16 days of EPG data, but the FCC only requires 12 hours - and not even that for low-power stations! Luckily many do more than the minimum, but I would think 72 hours is a more reasonable minimum for full-power stations; maybe 6 hours for LPTV just so we have something.

PSIP could use some technical improvements too: right now there's no provision for episode title, original air date, new/rerun flag, season/episode numbers, or the like. But I'm willing to wait on those. Perhaps they can be included in the ATSC 3.0 standard.
There is no problem add a few tags (plenty of reserves in ATSC 1.0/TS specs) to cover what you mentioned.
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post #11599 of 14840 Old 03-25-2016, 11:02 PM
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There is no problem add a few tags (plenty of reserves in ATSC 1.0/TS specs) to cover what you mentioned.
So then what is the reason stations and networks don't do this? I can't imagine that this would be resource intensive, either in terms of equipment or manpower. For example, what would a station have to do in order to provide 168 hours of PSIP data instead of the minimum 6? How much effort would it really take for a network to adjust PSIP data when a football game runs longer than originally allotted? I have noticed one thing, but it might be on the DVR+ side of the equation. Sometimes, when the synopsis of a program is too lengthy it simply quits in the DVR+ Guide. It's been a while since I've checked it out, but I think sometimes I can scroll down and read the rest of it, but not always. But even that seems like a relatively easy fix, either by increasing the window size and adding more lines, or making sure the scroll buttons are active.
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post #11600 of 14840 Old 03-26-2016, 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Greasemonkey View Post
So then what is the reason stations and networks don't do this? I can't imagine that this would be resource intensive, either in terms of equipment or manpower. For example, what would a station have to do in order to provide 168 hours of PSIP data instead of the minimum 6? How much effort would it really take for a network to adjust PSIP data when a football game runs longer than originally allotted? I have noticed one thing, but it might be on the DVR+ side of the equation. Sometimes, when the synopsis of a program is too lengthy it simply quits in the DVR+ Guide. It's been a while since I've checked it out, but I think sometimes I can scroll down and read the rest of it, but not always. But even that seems like a relatively easy fix, either by increasing the window size and adding more lines, or making sure the scroll buttons are active.
They don't do it because it means more salary and benefit costs to pay someone to spend more time. Bottom line they don't think OTA pays their expenses and so only do the bare bones minimum that the law allows. Many even do less. If the stations got more money from OTA broadcasting and had info that more people are viewing OTA then perhaps you might see changes.
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post #11601 of 14840 Old 03-26-2016, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wiscojim View Post
When I've contacted the local station engineers to ask for more PSIP data, they were always cooperative. That was back after the DTVPalDVR lost it's TV Guide schedule. I simply asked them to do it, pointing out that for anyone to plan ahead on what to watch or record, we needed to see what was coming up. Many of them at the time already had close to a week's worth of data up, while other stations only had the bare minimum. Since having the DVR+ units doing the majority of the recording in my home, I haven't kept up with the engineers, and I see PSIP data is unfortunately back to a very short period. Right now my PBS stations and the local Fox and WB channels have data for about 70 hours into the future. The rest of the stations have much less.

Maybe contacting your local stations now would help restore fuller PSIP schedules.

Here is an excerpt from a post I made two years ago which refers back to when all my local channels had between 4 & 7 days of PSIP programming listed.

"The only trouble I do have here is that some of the stations I contacted in the past to extend their PSIP schedule have reverted back to only 12 or 24 hours, although a couple still have a week's worth available. At one time the 12 local stations all had between 4 and 7 days of PSIP data. Probably time for more of us to again contact our local stations about this. When I've done this in the past, they always seemed to be aware of the need for this, and responsive. Must make sure to contact the station engineers though, the receptionists don't seem to have any clue about PSIP."


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Lots of luck! As a former DTVPAL owner many of us had to work with PSIP when we lost our full guide and we contacted stations. I personally tried to get many of the stations in the NY market to extend their guide. They all pretty much blew me off and we are talking about the big boys and PBS. I only had one small station try to work with me....MHZ network. They fixed their guide for awhile and then they let it go back. I'm sure I was not the only one in the NY market that was contacting them to fix the PSIP guide. Results were telling. They have NO interest in OTA.
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post #11602 of 14840 Old 03-26-2016, 06:34 AM
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Lots of luck! As a former DTVPAL owner many of us had to work with PSIP when we lost our full guide and we contacted stations. I personally tried to get many of the stations in the NY market to extend their guide. They all pretty much blew me off and we are talking about the big boys and PBS. I only had one small station try to work with me....MHZ network. They fixed their guide for awhile and then they let it go back. I'm sure I was not the only one in the NY market that was contacting them to fix the PSIP guide. Results were telling. They have NO interest in OTA.
Did you overlook that it did work here in the Green Bay market?

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post #11603 of 14840 Old 03-26-2016, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Greasemonkey View Post
So then what is the reason stations and networks don't do this? I can't imagine that this would be resource intensive, either in terms of equipment or manpower. For example, what would a station have to do in order to provide 168 hours of PSIP data instead of the minimum 6? How much effort would it really take for a network to adjust PSIP data when a football game runs longer than originally allotted? I have noticed one thing, but it might be on the DVR+ side of the equation. Sometimes, when the synopsis of a program is too lengthy it simply quits in the DVR+ Guide. It's been a while since I've checked it out, but I think sometimes I can scroll down and read the rest of it, but not always. But even that seems like a relatively easy fix, either by increasing the window size and adding more lines, or making sure the scroll buttons are active.

File a complaint with the FCC. Good luck.
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post #11604 of 14840 Old 03-26-2016, 10:26 AM
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Yep ..."Good Luck."

I played back and forth w/ FCC for quite a while over the issue of local stations failing to follow the FCC regulations regarding time setting and EPG/PSIP data. Finally got to argue with a couple of FCC lawyers who I had to show the regs to on their own website. When finally seeing that I was correct that the stations were in violation of regs I was told (I paraphrase) "We are not going to pursue this."

Bottom line ... It's all a big front ... the emperor is naked.

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post #11605 of 14840 Old 03-26-2016, 12:10 PM
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I only have one station subchannel with PSIP data instead of Rovi data.
New channel just went live a few weeks ago.
Usually about 8 hours is all the guide I get on that channel.

It DOES show New Episode data so apparently PSIP already supports that feature.
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post #11606 of 14840 Old 03-26-2016, 02:27 PM
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Sometimes when you call the local station and ask to talk to the broadcast engineers they are very helpful.
I have called my local CBS and got to talking to them about my setup of recording the transport stream, cutting commercials and storing on a NAS where my Dune's/Tvix's/etc could access them and the engineer was very interested and even wanted to come out to see my setup. Anyhow the engineer fixed the problem pronto.....
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post #11607 of 14840 Old 03-26-2016, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by qz3fwd View Post
Sometimes when you call the local station and ask to talk to the broadcast engineers they are very helpful.
I have called my local CBS and got to talking to them about my setup of recording the transport stream, cutting commercials and storing on a NAS where my Dune's/Tvix's/etc could access them and the engineer was very interested and even wanted to come out to see my setup. Anyhow the engineer fixed the problem pronto.....

My local CW was having OTA signal issues awhile back and I contacted them over Facebook and could not believe how responsive they were. They wanted times I was seeing the issues and had engineers pull recordings and ended up replacing parts on their end that 100% resolved my issue. It never hurts to ask!
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post #11608 of 14840 Old 03-26-2016, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by P Smith View Post
There is no problem add a few tags (plenty of reserves in ATSC 1.0/TS specs) to cover what you mentioned.
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Originally Posted by Greasemonkey View Post
So then what is the reason stations and networks don't do this?
"Reserves" aren't good enough. There has to be a national standard so that every broadcaster provides metadata in the same format and every tuner looks for it in that format.

New metadata could be added in a manner compatible with ATSC 1.0 (call it ATSC 2.1 since 2.0 is taken, and since 3.0 and presumably any later versions will be incompatible), but I doubt it'll happen now that 3.0 is already being worked on.

As for getting stations to extend their guides, often if you can get through to the station engineer, (s)he will work with you, but it can be hard to get the engineer's contact info for most stations; and as we've seen, if folks don't keep up the pressure, "backsliding" is likely. And it's probably easier in smaller markets like Green Bay than huge ones like NYC, where an accidental screw-up could impact millions of viewers.

After all, a lot of tuners don't display more than a day or so, so for most viewers there's not much point in broadcasting more; the DVR+ (and DTVPal) are exceptional in showing up to a week (DTVPal) or two (DVR+) of PSIP guide data.
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post #11609 of 14840 Old 03-26-2016, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by LenL View Post
Lots of luck! As a former DTVPAL owner many of us had to work with PSIP when we lost our full guide and we contacted stations. I personally tried to get many of the stations in the NY market to extend their guide. They all pretty much blew me off and we are talking about the big boys and PBS. I only had one small station try to work with me....MHZ network. They fixed their guide for awhile and then they let it go back. I'm sure I was not the only one in the NY market that was contacting them to fix the PSIP guide. Results were telling. They have NO interest in OTA.
I never asked any station to extend their guide -- I'm quite content with a couple days look ahead. I did, however, contact stations that had no data at all. Except for PBS, I found stations very responsive. For PBS, I filed complaints with the FCC when they got lazy. Fixed things right up.
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post #11610 of 14840 Old 03-27-2016, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by JHBrandt View Post
"Reserves" aren't good enough. There has to be a national standard so that every broadcaster provides metadata in the same format and every tuner looks for it in that format.
I can understand how, from the DVR+ side of the equation it might be fairly complex to see, collect and display metadata. I can even understand how it might be an ongoing labor intensive task for networks to compile the data and encode it into their stream. But what kind of ongoing effort is there on the part of broadcasters at the station level? I would think that all they have to do is set the parameters once, i.e. 72 hours worth of programming, title, synopsis, etc and after that it should be like a fire and forget type of thing. Why would providing ongoing, comprehensive PSIP data be more work for them beyond the initial setup? Even at the user end, I would think a simple software update could take care of what we see. There would be work involved to set it up, but that's a one time effort, and beyond that the DVR+ is on autopilot receiving and displaying what is already coming down the pipe.
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