Wizarm DVR on indiegogo - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 24 Old 10-17-2013, 04:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi guys, i recently found that wizarm HDMI recorder running android/ubuntu on indiegogo and was wondering what the people at AVS or the geeks out there think about this device ?



•SoC – Samsung Exynos 5250 dual Cortex A15 up to 2GHz big.LITTLE quad A7 with Mali T-604 GPU (Quad core 533Mhz)
•System Memory – 2GB
•Storage – 16 GB eMMC. SDXC card slot, and SATA 3 connector for 2.5″ SSD or HDD
•I/O ports:
•SATA 3
•2x USB 3.0
•4x USB 2.0 host ports
•Video – HDMI OUT, HDMI IN, DisplayPort
•Audio – LINE IN, LINE OUT, Optical out

•Connectivity:
•Wi-Fi 802.11 a/b/g/n (dual Wi-Fi)
• Gigabit Ethernet
•Bluetooth 4.0

•Misc – IR sensor
•Dimensions – 21cm x 14cm x 5cm


Read more: http://www.cnx-software.com/2013/10/07/wizarm-pvr-mediabox-features-samsung-exynos-5250-processor/#ixzz2i4gSOrov

EDIT: indiegogo link here
Wizarm website: here

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post #2 of 24 Old 10-17-2013, 04:39 PM
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How does your device handle copy protected sources like BD players and cable/satellite boxes? Are you planning to make this into a real product, enclose it and sell it?
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post #3 of 24 Old 10-17-2013, 04:49 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm just reporting this device to AVS members, I plan to be a backer of this project and get one. see their indiegogo page here: http://igg.me/at/wizarm/

I don't know how they manage protected source but since they are in china and since this device seems to do exactly what my current setup is doing with PS3 using Capture card, video processor (hdfury) and dedicated computer. I guess it's just fine wink.gif
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post #4 of 24 Old 10-17-2013, 06:05 PM
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So if you play back a commercial blu-ray from your PS3, you can still record it?
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post #5 of 24 Old 10-17-2013, 06:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdavej View Post

So if you play back a commercial blu-ray from your PS3, you can still record it?

In my current setup, I think this scenario works, at least I know that without hdfury, I cannot even record my gameplay or menu via HDMI.
Since that wizarm box can record PS3 menu/gameplay as well, I guess the answer is that it does something similar than the hdfury.
May be worth asking them?
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post #6 of 24 Old 10-17-2013, 06:27 PM
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If that's the case, it's illegal to buy or sell it in the United States, so if you try to order one, it may get blocked at customs, unless you have some sort of brown-box way to sneak one into the country. You don't specify your location, though, so maybe you live in a country with copyright laws less asinine than those of the United States, in which case enjoy your new toy. wink.gif
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post #7 of 24 Old 10-17-2013, 06:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you Ives, It happens that I am one of the lucky guys then ! wink.gif
Only problem is that it's not available yet, so I have to wait frown.gif

Just one question, why would it be a such a problem in your country(?) to record gameplay on PS3 when it's something that you will be able to do out of the box on PS4 ? (but not at release time from what I have read).
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post #8 of 24 Old 10-17-2013, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by TheFreeman View Post

Thank you Ives, It happens that I am one of the lucky guys then ! wink.gif
Only problem is that it's not available yet, so I have to wait frown.gif

Just one question, why would it be a such a problem in your country(?) to record gameplay on PS3 when it's something that you will be able to do out of the box on PS4 ? (but not at release time from what I have read).

Please add some elements to your main post, it will save people time.
I made a thread here about it: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1495419/arm-powered-tv-box-with-dvr-capabilities

For your question, do not worry too much, it's all non sense.
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post #9 of 24 Old 10-17-2013, 09:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFreeman View Post

Just one question, why would it be a such a problem in your country(?) to record gameplay on PS3 when it's something that you will be able to do out of the box on PS4 ?

To my knowledge, it isn't. I don't own a PS3, but AFAIK it does not use HDCP, so you can record from its HDMI output. The main reason people in the US would want something like this is to record protected cable channels, but cable DVRs employ HDCP, so that wouldn't work.
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post #10 of 24 Old 10-17-2013, 09:40 PM
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If this does indeed bypass HDCP and doesn't remain under the radar, it won't fly in the US. They may get by with it for a short time, but eventually they will go the way of HDFury which used to work the same way. So invest with great caution.
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post #11 of 24 Old 10-18-2013, 05:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleron Ives View Post

To my knowledge, it isn't. I don't own a PS3, but AFAIK it does not use HDCP, so you can record from its HDMI output. The main reason people in the US would want something like this is to record protected cable channels, but cable DVRs employ HDCP, so that wouldn't work.


In my current setup (described above) i can't record PS3 gameplay without HDfury in the loop. So i guess this will also work perfectly for any HDMI device.
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post #12 of 24 Old 10-18-2013, 05:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 3Dfury View Post

Please add some elements to your main post, it will save people time.
I made a thread here about it: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1495419/arm-powered-tv-box-with-dvr-capabilities

For your question, do not worry too much, it's all non sense.

Ok will do, btw, what do you mean by "it's all non sense" ?
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post #13 of 24 Old 10-18-2013, 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by TheFreeman View Post

Ok will do, btw, what do you mean by "it's all non sense" ?
I think he's talking about it getting held up in customs. Many cheap HDCP strippers make it through, but if the Wizarm becomes anything more than a cheap grey market Chinese import, it likely won't be allowed to be sold in the US. Really cheap ones seem to stay under the radar, but many others have tried and been shut down, as HDFury was last year. They had to remove that capability to be allowed to sell their products in the US again.

Recording game play is pretty innocuous, but removing HDCP to do it is a bigger deal and definitely illegal in the US. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. I personally have no use for such a device. I was just curious how it worked.
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post #14 of 24 Old 10-18-2013, 05:44 PM
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Ok will do, btw, what do you mean by "it's all non sense" ?


Grrr, ok i'll do that once for all, i really think it's a waste of time but here you go:

Your question is good, really good indeed because it points straight to the non sense of this CP.
There is a wrong belief around, and people in DMCA countries think that "adding a hdmi RX design in your setup is illegal".
The hdmi RX is the receiver chip that decipher the incoming protected stream from a source's hdmi TX ic.
When you own anything with either a HDMI TX or HDMI RX (that means all your HDMI sources and all your HDMI sink devices)
You have paid royalties on each IC to the DCP folks and it means that the manufacturer/seller of the hardware is paying his annual fee + more royalties to the same people.
There is nothing wrong in doing that and nothing illegal under any laws from any place in the world so far. Thus manufacturer of such device might have some contract issue.
Many claim that there is "many legal cases" , and when you ask them to point 1, there is no answer, because there isn't any.
What you have is lawyers agencies with 0 technical knowledge on the subject sending letters for cease&desist.
The only legal case known today is ANTARES PRO, AVA DIRECT vs WARNER,but it's pending, so until this is ruled out, there is nothing "illegal" about this in DMCA countries or elsewhere.

Now if someone have one court case on the subject, it's welcome. We know that there could be some real legal cases because of some hardware available that are using the masterkey published a couple of years ago but that's another story.


Now you might want to know why:

First of all, there is that non sense we talked about, you are wondering about why it would be so called "illegal" to record gameplay on a ps3 game while you can so called "legally" record gameplay of the same game on PS4. (or X360!)
You can also wonder why you can unlock some hardware from the very same big companies behind this CP with a remote sequence. If it was something so called "illegal" why would it be "legal" for them ?
You can add a LOT to this non sense list, like mobile, slysoft, inter-operability, and so on...

The truth is that it's an INEFFECTIVE CP cracked 13 years ago (and it's not ineffective because cracked , see below)
The hilarious truth is that mostly all big companies actually bought/own/use and need such design based on HDMI Rx ICs.

DMCA states that the owner of the copyrighted content have to grant authorization to bypass a CP. Now when you play a game, who is copyright owner ? You or the game studio right ? ... but not the hardware manufacturer.
Let's say you are using your computer to produce a commercial movie clip or a private movie clip, you are the copyright owner of the content displayed on your monitor.
Now let's say that you later want to watch this clip on your analog display or your monitor that is not 4letters compliant (hey buy a HDfury!) smile.gif
Ok, who is the copyright owner ? yes, it's clearly you ! so you can decide to grant authorization to bypass a CP in order to watch your own content. or copyleft content, etc...

The 4letters CP that annoy everyone more than anything else is INEFFECTIVE, the reason why it's ineffective, it's because it's always ON.
Since its always ON, you have no other choice than grant authorization to bypass it in order to access content that belongs to you or copyleft, etc..

Such device mentioned (with HDMI rx) can somewhat become USELESS if the industry release more hardware like PS4 or X1 that will protect BR and dvd but not gameplay, now we have to see if a private BR or DVD will play unencrypted or not.
Until the world is fulfilled with such hardware, such device with HDMI rx will be needed for LEGAL reason in DMCA countries.

Hope it's enough. I'm not expert, but others have same point of view:

"The real issue comes from looking into HDCP’s protection power in terms of the Fair Use statutes. Coming to a court near you will be a battle to see if Hollywood is even entitled to implement such a protection scheme" - Scott Settler, 2005 !!
___________________

This being said, back to the topic, that Wizarm box have a very unique and completely different approach that set it apart.
The mobile industry have put a lot of effort in dozen MB pixel camera and smooth software handling for large bandwidth camera feed with zoom, rotate and others adjustment.
Using the wizarm PVR to record HDMI exactly in the same way as you record with your smartphone's camera is just amazing!
Given the facts that it should work with mostly all camera apps, you will have no problem to find software for scheduling, adding effects, etc..the android ecosystem is full of software for camera.
Huge potential
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post #15 of 24 Old 10-20-2013, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by 3Dfury View Post

...Now if someone have one court case on the subject, it's welcome.
No court cases because cease and desist threats shut them down before they ever go to court.

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post #16 of 24 Old 10-21-2013, 05:54 AM
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No court cases because cease and desist threats shut them down before they ever go to court.

Did you actually read me ?

Because, what's the point to answer what i wrote with documents that WE posted online if you cannot understand the outcome ?

You wrote "shut them down before they ever go to court" ... funny, who shut who down ? HDfury is still there up and running and providing worldwide content creators with top notch converters to convert HDMI to RGB/YUV or even DVI-D in 16/9 but also 16/10, 4/3, and others rare formats as well trans-coding, scan converting, etc.. thus offering the ultimate solution to connect today digital sources to any displays guaranteed.
A cease&desist will never shut anyone down, it's either you recognize your fault (if any fault) and stop activities, or you are confident in what you are doing and so you just continue until they bring you in court or you bring them in court and a judge will rule about the legality or not (which never happened so far after so many years, not wondering why ?)
As stated above, all majors content creators are using HDMI rx design, since they are content copyright owners they grant to themselves the right to bypass the CP in order to access their work. It would be EPIC to see the big studios going in court while the defendant can produce evidences that the same studios are buying/using and in need of the same incriminated hardware.

Now since you are copying those documents, can you actually read them a bit more and smell the rat ?

i'll help you out:

"blah blah studio who owns copyrights in various works that are transmitted using 4letters technology, which effectively controls access to the content and protects blah blah studio rights as a copyright owner in that content. 4letters is therefore a technological measure that effectively controls access to a copyrighted work"....

So you are back to the same loop:

- the CP does not EFFECTIVELY controls access, since it's always ON it cannot control anything, it's just always ON so there is No, zero, nada, niet access control and since it's always ON, it's not an effective CP.
- To be effective the CP needs to be ON when copyright owner decides that it should be ON (let's say when you insert their BR disc), and be OFF when copyright owner decides that it should be OFF (let's say when you want to access work that you created or for which you own the copyright)
- Basically an effective CP, would be a CP that is activated by the playback of a copyrighted content, in the present case, it's the hardware that comes with an always ON CP no matter what type of content you wanna play on it (copyright by others parties, copyleft or your own content)

As a content creator, you are the copyright owner, you can then decide to grant authorization to bypass an ineffective CP in order to access your work , if the CP was effective, you would be able to access your content without having to bypass it.



As the writer of this comment (the copyright holder), We hereby grant (to everyone in the universe) authorization to bypass any technological measures that control access to this comment, by any means that such a person desires to use. (Are you using a 4letters-connected monitor right now? wink.gif )
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post #17 of 24 Old 10-21-2013, 06:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Now i feel sorry to have asked this question but thank you for your explanation.
Can we stay on the topic? Does anyone happen to know if the Wizarm can be used with android camera stream app such as Ustream ? Will it stream HDMI to ustream this way ?
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post #18 of 24 Old 10-21-2013, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3Dfury View Post

Did you actually read me ?

Because, what's the point to answer what i wrote with documents that WE posted online if you cannot understand the outcome ?

You wrote "shut them down before they ever go to court" ... funny, who shut who down ? HDfury is still there up and running and providing worldwide content creators with top notch converters to convert HDMI to RGB/YUV or even DVI-D in 16/9 but also 16/10, 4/3, and others rare formats as well trans-coding, scan converting, etc.. thus offering the ultimate solution to connect today digital sources to any displays guaranteed.
A cease&desist will never shut anyone down, it's either you recognize your fault (if any fault) and stop activities, or you are confident in what you are doing and so you just continue until they bring you in court or you bring them in court and a judge will rule about the legality or not (which never happened so far after so many years, not wondering why ?)
http://www.hdfury.com/is-our-picture-quality-making-legal-problems/

The outcome was the the HDFury devices that bypassed HDCP were removed from shelves. When you can't sell your one and only product, like Wizarm, you are essentially shut down.

I'm not taking sides here or arguing the law. I'm just pointing out the kinds of problems Wizarm will run into.

So what is different about Wizarm that will allow them to bypass HDCP and sell their device in the US where others have failed?

Re: Ustream. Is this what you mean?
https://ustream.zendesk.com/entries/21650313-Recording-on-Your-Ustream-Channel-using-external-encoders
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post #19 of 24 Old 10-21-2013, 09:50 AM
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You should check the latest link on the subject, you can find it here: http://www.hdfury.com/hdmi-hdcp/hdcp-dmca-and-us/
It was explicitly written: "Please note that the below comment, information and legal point are replacing anything you could read on the subject from our website"

ALL HDfury devices were removed from the shelves by lawyers sending cease&desist letters to resellers. Not only those that deal with the CP, ALL OF THEM (means: including device that doesn't deal with CP at all such as Dr.HDMI)
That doesn't mean it's illegal (it's not until a court/judge rules that as illegal) and that doesn't mean it's prohibited. it's just not welcome by the industry.
It's only normal that resellers obey to such scam, they have no interest in taking risks by going in court against the industry giants (even if they can win) for only one out of many more devices from their catalog.

I don't understand why you say "others have failed", US/CA/UK are full of devices that allow you to bypass the 4letters CP, and some even come from the same big companies behind the CP. (read again above)

Now about Wizarm, I see it as fully different (might be wrong), here the question would be: Are smartphones that allow you to record video clip prohibited in DMCA countries because you can record your TV screen ?
Of course not, you have the right to use your smartphone camera to record private clip, create your own content.
But it would be illegal to go in a theater and record the latest blockbuster or later share the file with others on internet right ? because you are not the content owner!
Or point your smartphone at your TV screen and record a BR disc that is copyrighted by a studio. That's illegal and the smartphone allow you to do that, thus bypassing the CP but smartphones are not illegal in DMCA countries isn't it ?
Something similar apply to Wizarm given the approach and technology used. At least it is technically VERY different.

At the end its the user who make a legitimate or illegitimate use of a device.

The reality is that it isn’t Joe Schmoe with a Samsung rear projection DLP set at home who has the latest home video blockbuster available on the streets of Beijing the day after its release.
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post #20 of 24 Old 10-21-2013, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFreeman View Post

Now i feel sorry to have asked this question but thank you for your explanation.
Can we stay on the topic? Does anyone happen to know if the Wizarm can be used with android camera stream app such as Ustream ? Will it stream HDMI to ustream this way ?

You are right, better stay on the topic (all the cp discussion above is just speculation anyway, if one wants to have a clear view on the subject, better wait until it's ruled out in court)
About your question: there is an Ustream android app available, you just have to grab that, launch it and instead of streaming your smartphone's camera to the ustream.tv website, it should stream the video from the device connected to the wizarm. (let's say it will stream your gameplay from the attached game console to your ustream channel)
Such thing should work out of the box.
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post #21 of 24 Old 10-22-2013, 09:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3Dfury View Post

You are right, better stay on the topic (all the cp discussion above is just speculation anyway, if one wants to have a clear view on the subject, better wait until it's ruled out in court)
About your question: there is an Ustream android app available, you just have to grab that, launch it and instead of streaming your smartphone's camera to the ustream.tv website, it should stream the video from the device connected to the wizarm. (let's say it will stream your gameplay from the attached game console to your ustream channel)
Such thing should work out of the box.

Cheers, glad to hear this !

Please confirm if i'm right: this box should record hdmi without the need of external device (like capture card who require video processor ?) and without the need of specific software (any android camera software will work ?) and possibly stream the plugged in hdmi device using an android camera stream software, is that correct ?
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post #22 of 24 Old 11-15-2013, 08:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey @3Dfury, are you still there ?

I have receive the latest campaign update, it's now confirmed working on PS4 !!! Nice wink.gif

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post #23 of 24 Old 11-15-2013, 12:39 PM
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Why on earth would you need one of these on a PS4? Game-play DVR is built in.
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post #24 of 24 Old 03-05-2014, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdavej View Post

Why on earth would you need one of these on a PS4? Game-play DVR is built in.


The same reason anyone would replace the factory stereo in their car with an aftermarket one.  I don't own either the Xbox One or the PS4, but I have read reviews on their game recording capabilities and neither of them is perfect.

 

1) Neither produce a pixel for pixel copy of what you see on the display when playing the game.  Both use a good bit of compression at the time they capture (the Xbox One slightly moreso than the PS4, which results in a slightly smaller file size, but slightly lower video quality).  You can adjust quality settings to an extent, but since both Sony and Microsoft designed the built-in game recording capabilities with the intent that the end result would be uploaded/streamed over the internet, neither went all out in terms of capture quality.  To paraphrase one review site "the video quality you will get from the built-in game recorders/PVR's is more than usable, though not quite on the same level as you would get from bespoke video capture hardware/software".  I wasn't able to find exact specs for the Xbox One or PS4 on things like max recording resolution (assuming 1080p), max recording framerate (assuming 30 fps at 1080p, but could be as high as 60 fps), video recording formats (.ts, MP4, AVCHD, etc.), audio recording formats (AAC, AC3, MP3, etc.), but I think it's a safe bet that they are very similar to the specs of most HD game capture devices on the market today.  Based on it's current specs, the Wizarm looks like it takes the best capabilities of all of the existing recording devices rolled into one and takes it a step further.  I've looked at a number of video capture options and I haven't seen any below $900 that match the specs the Wizarm is slated to have.  Of coarse, we won't know for sure until it's actually released.

 

2) Both the Xbox One and PS4 are currently limited in terms of the length of the video clip they can record well below what you are physically capable of recording onto a USB flash drive, much less a reasonably priced HDD.  For the Xbox One, it's 5 minutes.  For the PS4, it's 15 minutes.  If you want to capture longer sessions, you are forced to record multiple clips and then piece them together.  While, on that topic, the built-in editing software in the PS4 does not allow you to combine clips (only trim them) and with the Xbox one, you are only able to combine 5 clips at a time.  If that doesn't meet your needs, you must export the clips to your PC and use the video editing software you have on your PC to do the job.  AFAIK, there is no direct export option from either system.  For the Xbox One, your best option is to upload the video clip(s) to Skydrive where you can then download them to your PC.  I'm not sure how you would do this for the PS4 since, last I saw, your export options are limited to Playstation Network (PSN) and Twitch.  Can you download them for editing from either of those sources?  Most external video capture devices will allow you to capture indefinitely until you run out of storage space.  It looks as though the Wizarm will take the latter approach and with an internal slot for a SATA3 SSD and two USB 3.0 ports for connecting external drives, you have the potential for plenty of storage space.  Note: I excluded the additional USB 2.0 ports as those most likely lack the bandwidth necessary to record at anything above 1080p30 without sacrificing quaility.

 

3) With the PS4 and Xbox One, you get one choice for your built-in video capture/editing software (the one that comes built-in).  Again, to use anything else, you must first export the clips, then edit them on another device.  Furthermore, if you own both console systems, you are stuck having to learn how to use the built-in game recorders of both, at least for the initial capture.  Granted, they tried to make them both easy to use, but it's still 2 different interfaces.  The Wizarm will clearly have the advantage of giving the user more options for video capture/editing software as well as the option to use one capture/editing software for everything.  How easy they are to learn/use is not known for certain at this time.  I don't really do a whole lot of video editing on my android phone, so I can't speak to the quality of the apps that are currently available for it.  Also, one has to wonder if any of them are particularly mouse/keyboard or remote friendly since they are designed to be used on a phone/tablet.  Then again, the option to use an android to control it might be preferable to using a game remote for some people.  Worst case is you edit the video clips on your PC.  Even then, the ability to access the files directly from storage using the PC rather than having to upload & download them like you do with the Xbox One/PS4, gives the Wizarm a leg up.

 

4) CPU/GPU load.  Since the Wizarm is not out yet, there are no unbiased reviews on its performance when capturing at the highest resolution and frame rate available.  Also, it's possible that the quality of the game recording software built into the Xbox One and PS4 could be improved without it negatively affecting game play.  However, if we look at PC gaming and capture software (Fraps, Dxtory, Bandicam, etc.) as an example, it is clear that (even with the fastest, most powerful rigs) there comes a point where there are not enough resources to be able to play AND record at the highest possible quality simultaneously, using the same machine.  If, at some point, the Xbox One and/or PS4 have games that run at 1440p (which I think they are both technically capable of doing), will they also be able to record at that same resolution without hickups?  If not, this is where an external capture device can help.

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