The Official 169time AVX-1 Technical Status Discussion - Page 31 - AVS Forum
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post #901 of 3266 Old 05-27-2003, 05:25 PM
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Dave:
Did you see Lezek's comment on "ugly muxer" devices?
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=263766

Could that explain the occasional freezes/stutters/glitches that people see?
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post #902 of 3266 Old 05-27-2003, 05:30 PM
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I recorded the movie Resident Evil last night on HBO and experienced two short 1-3 second freezes. This was similar to my Spiderman recording. I was actually able to see these while monitoring the recording through the Component video output of the JVC DVHS 30K unit. I believe there is a dropout in data coming from the AVX-1 across the firewire input to the JVC. These occurred early on in the movie say within the first 45 minutes or less.
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post #903 of 3266 Old 05-27-2003, 06:30 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Raiders161
I recorded the movie Resident Evil last night on HBO and experienced two short 1-3 second freezes. This was similar to my Spiderman recording. I was actually able to see these while monitoring the recording through the Component video output of the JVC DVHS 30K unit. I believe there is a dropout in data coming from the AVX-1 across the firewire input to the JVC. These occurred early on in the movie say within the first 45 minutes or less.

LA:

Thanks for confirming what I have been experiencing with the B3 software, if we can somehow get rid of the 1-3 second freezes, we will be home free.

Lon
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post #904 of 3266 Old 05-27-2003, 07:49 PM
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fyi

Good, Bad, and Ugly. Is it better to be called ugly or bad? I have heard
some people say the external case design of the AVX1 is cute, and others
less complimentary.

Okay, so the muxer has to have larger buffers, timing, management, and even
some amount of estimation to
get called a "good muxer."

Thanks Leszek

fyi

dave
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post #905 of 3266 Old 05-27-2003, 08:25 PM
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Dave,

As you pointed out many times, this is not easy.

Good muxers (such as Manzanita or Carver) start at $800 and go up from there for software only. AVX1 is a software and hardware solution at a cheaper price, so it is still very impressive.

Leszek
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post #906 of 3266 Old 05-27-2003, 08:45 PM
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Leszek, just got off the phone with Richard. He says thanks for all the input and help. He continues to think and try things and still things he can make another step forward on improving the avx-1 s/w. But until its ready.
Looks like he may be getting closer to supporting some of the other Direct TV STB's. He continues to have lots of things all going on at one time. One can on focus on one thing for so long before the brain overloads. I still think a few seconds of glitches I can live with compared to nothing. But, as an early adopter on this kind of stuff, I understand perfection means one waits and waits and waits.

Dave
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post #907 of 3266 Old 05-27-2003, 09:27 PM
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Glad to hear Richard is working on it.
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post #908 of 3266 Old 05-31-2003, 06:48 AM
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Last night I ordered Minority Report from Directv and made my first recording with the JVC deck. There were two long audio dropouts that I noted when I watched the movie and when I played back the tape.

The movie was broadcast in Dolby Digital but NOT in 5.1! Rats!

The first was about an hour into the movie and lasted about 61 seconds, the second was about 1:45 into the movie and lasted about 45 seconds. Unfortunately both dropouts came at bad times during the movie as the main character was talking in intense scenes.

I plan to create a new thread detailing my 169time experiences so far. I will also try to use DVHSTool to see if the recording can be played back using my HTPC.
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post #909 of 3266 Old 05-31-2003, 07:01 AM
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So I dont understand. If you are saying you watched it live, and it had two long audio drop outs, and then the tape had the same thing, what else would you have expected? What you see (or hear) is what you get?

Dave
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post #910 of 3266 Old 05-31-2003, 09:05 AM
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I've been watching DirecTV for over two years now and have never had the problem of video without audio. However this 169time Proscan sat box does have its quirks!

When I recorded the movie, I watched and listened to the feed from my JVC deck - NOT from the sat box. My understanding is that that DirecTV data goes:

sat box -> AVX-1 -> JVC deck

This would mean that I was watching / listening to a signal that was processed by the AVX-1 and the JVC.

Now the audio dropout could have been in the source itself or it could have been a problem with any of the machines involved. If I had been listening to audio out from the sat box alone I would have been able to tell if the problem was from the source / sat box.

h2ofun: I have made a few postings detailing my initial experience with the 169time product and you seem very defensive about it. Are you involved with the company?
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post #911 of 3266 Old 05-31-2003, 10:12 AM
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Just make sure you post your facts. If you can prove a conclusion, great.
Help us make the product better.

Dave
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post #912 of 3266 Old 05-31-2003, 10:42 AM
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fyi
Hi,

Our recording adapter system does indeed output the exact same quality
digital signal on the firewire that is received by the set top box.

The DVI signal could be exactly derived from the firewire signal. Firewire
and DVI are equal as far as quality, but it is the firewire based signal
that is suitable for use with our recording adapters.

You mentioned "recompression" by the deck. This is something that deck
might do with firewire signals that originated from a miniDV camcorder, or
with copy protected HDTV tape sources. However, when used with HDTV sources
that originate from received broadcasts and output onto the firewire by our
recording adapters, I do not believe that the deck perfroms any
recompression of the signal.

One item that needs explanation is that even though TVs and computers may
each have a firewire port, this does not imply that these device can
electronically talk to each other. In fact, unless the devices are exactly
and particularly intended to interoperate, they will probably not
interoperate.

We are not currently specifying that our product interoperates with display
devices such as the Mitsubishi TV via firewire.

Currently there is a way to use the firewire output from the recording
adapter we sell for the DTC100 with a PC when used with reception of a
terrestrial OTA H/DTV signal. This is discussed on our web page. This is
when the AVX1 is not selected. That is, the PC has selected the DTC100's
firewire as the input source.

Our AVX1 product that is needed for most satellte HDTV deck based recording
does not currently support this same type of interoperation with PCs. Thus,
signals that originate from a satellite source cannot currently be used
directly with a PC. Even though the signal is put out on the firewire, the
PC doesn't understand what to do with it.

There is a work around where the satellite HDTV signal can first be recorded
to tape, and then imported to the PC.

We are planning to update to the AVX1 software to allow it to interoperate
with a PC. In much the same way as the AVX1 currently makes the satellite
HDTV signal compatible with the deck, that update will permit the AVX1 to
make the satellite HDTV signal compatible with a PC, which it currently is
not. When this update is officially announced and shipping, it would then
be possible to send the satellite originating HDTV signal to the PC for
storage, retreival, and playback.

Viewing of the signal on the PC is being facilitated by products from other
vendors. If a compatible firewire HDTV signal was provided to the PC, this
should be sufficient to allow a PC based hardware or software HDTV decoder
(provided by others) to display the signal on the PC. It is not desirable
to use DVI for this. DVI is particularly only suited for use with display
devices.

Although the end result of what a PC does also goes to a display device, the
PC is not itself a display device. It is the monitor that is a display
device. In the instance of a notebook computer where the display is
integrated into the hardware and a direct input is probably not provided, it
might still be possible to display HDTV input from firewire, storage, or
communication based sources. Doing this this would depend on PC hardware
and software that is currently outside the realm of what our company
supports, though other companies might support this.

I think this information will help to convey what our system currently
supports and why this is not currently meeting your needs.

fyi

Dave
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post #913 of 3266 Old 05-31-2003, 11:34 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by h2ofun
We are planning to update to the AVX1 software to allow it to interoperate
with a PC. In much the same way as the AVX1 currently makes the satellite
HDTV signal compatible with the deck, that update will permit the AVX1 to
make the satellite HDTV signal compatible with a PC, which it currently is
not. When this update is officially announced and shipping, it would then
be possible to send the satellite originating HDTV signal to the PC for
storage, retreival, and playback.

That is great news.
Quote:



Viewing of the signal on the PC is being facilitated by products from other
vendors. If a compatible firewire HDTV signal was provided to the PC, this
should be sufficient to allow a PC based hardware or software HDTV decoder
(provided by others) to display the signal on the PC. It is not desirable
to use DVI for this. DVI is particularly only suited for use with display
devices.

I think this wording might be confusing to some (or just me), but just wanted to make sure that it was clear that DVI can still be an advantage after the recording. For those with DVI displays, once he gets recordings to work from a PC going DVI from your video card might still give the best picture.

--Darin
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post #914 of 3266 Old 05-31-2003, 12:19 PM
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Yep, will see.

So, I am building up my 2.4 ghz computer now so I can get the tools ready to try the avx-1 out when richard is ready for me to test.

So, if anyone wants to help guide me as to what test setup is the best for me to try out before the avx-1 pc upgrade ships, let me know.

Dave
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post #915 of 3266 Old 05-31-2003, 12:21 PM
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I have been playing this rainy afternoon with the following: my 169time recorded Minority Report DVHS tape, DVHSTool, my Shuttle HTPC hooked up to the DVI port of my JVC G150 DILA projector, Videolan media player, my PC-DTV HD recording card and the Elecard MPEG2 player.

I brought some video from the tape to my PC using DVHSTool. The PC-DTV card ca play these files but the ideo and audio plays back badly - lots of dropouts, green screens at times and sometimes just nothing displayed or heard.

Videolan can play these files and puts out the sound BUT when it gets to the end of a file it encounters some kind of error and the program crashes.

Elecard can play the files but the sound volume is very low for some reason.

I used the "Info" button in Elecard and found out something interesting:

normally an HDTV file is 1920 x 1080 with a bit rate of 18,000,000, the files from the tape are reported as 1920 x 1088 with a bit rate of 45,000,000

I wonder if there is some kind of extra info in the data from the AVX-1 recording or if there is some error in the bit stream that the AVX-1 or the JVC is sending to DVJSTool.

The DVI image looks good but I think I'll stick with the normal component output from my JVC deck to the projector.
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post #916 of 3266 Old 05-31-2003, 12:42 PM
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OK. I took a 169time recording from a DVHS tape and Windows Media Player could not play back the transport stream file. I then used HTVToMPEG2 1.09 beta and converted the ts file into an mpeg2 file. Now the Win Media Player plays it back perfectly and it looks great AND sounds great!

This software combo can be used to store / playback the 169time recordings on an HTPC.

I am curious to see how well the Windows Media Encoder can compress / encode these files. It would be great to be able to store / play back a movie in "near HD" resolution on one DVD. I know that there has been a lot of discussion about using the Media Encoder to do this. I don't have a DVD burner to play with but I may try it anyway.
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post #917 of 3266 Old 05-31-2003, 01:29 PM
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You CANT use the avx-1 directly with DVHStool. The only way to do it today is record the avx-1 to the jvc. and then use dvhstools to import from the jvc deck

dave
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post #918 of 3266 Old 05-31-2003, 03:33 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by h2ofun
So, if anyone wants to help guide me as to what test setup is the best for me to try out before the avx-1 pc upgrade ships, let me know.

I have a few suggested options for playback of avx-1 transport stream files that have been captured to a PC hard drive.

1) Software playback from the PC hard drive through the DTC-100/169time decoder (by firewire). I'm not sure which application is best suited for this purpose, MyHD or DVHSTool, I would guess.

2) HDTV PC tuner card playback from the hard drive with either the MyHD, Hipix, Access DTV, or HiDTV cards.

3) Software playback through the PC video card with DVHSTool, Zoomplayer or the Fusion software. I'm sure that there are other software playback options, but these are the ones I am familiar with.

I would be satisfied with reliable playback through the DTC-100 decoder, because I suspect that it is more robust than any other decoders, but the greater the compatibility the better, IMO.

Steve
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post #919 of 3266 Old 05-31-2003, 03:42 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by bwooster

I used the "Info" button in Elecard and found out something interesting:

normally an HDTV file is 1920 x 1080 with a bit rate of 18,000,000, the files from the tape are reported as 1920 x 1088 with a bit rate of 45,000,000

The datarate you see there is just an "encoder hint" (comment). The actual datarate is different. Since 45Mbps is a common rate for "Mezzanine level" compression, you often see that value on streams even if they are less. My guess it is the "default" setting unless some encoder tech goes to the trouble of putting the actual value in there.

To know the real datarate, one actually has to measure bits in the stream.

I think DTV/HBO used to report as 1920x1080 14.25Mbit/sec, but recently changed to 1920x1088 45Mbit/sec. I think this coincides with them re-encoding the signal (rather than passing it through) so they can feed it into their new stat-mux equipment to cram more channels into the less transponders.

H2ofun/Dave - you should pull across some 169time recordings to your new HTPC and make sure that you can get them to play properly using DVHStool with Elecard filters. See if you can get SPDIF audio to work on DD5.1 programs. Once that works then you are ready for the next step (when the AVX1 will talk to the PC directly).

You may also want to try connecting the PC directly to the DTC100/HDVR and see if you can get live OTA shows to play through the PC/DVHStool.
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post #920 of 3266 Old 05-31-2003, 03:47 PM
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stjr - it is pretty well known that the Janus based PC cards (MyHD, HiPix, etc) will NOT play back 169time recordings properly. They stutter badly. Leszek1 speculates that this is because of "poorly buffered muxing". Perhaps a future AVX1 release could make things more flexible. At least we have a bunch of other choices (JVC decoder, DTC100 decoder, Dish 6000 decoder, Elecard PC filters, etc).
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post #921 of 3266 Old 05-31-2003, 04:04 PM
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PVR - I just wanted to put out a "wish list" of possible playback options. At the present time, I only have the Janus based decoders available to me until I either purchase the other decoders and/or upgrade my PC's to permit smooth software playback.

I have read your posts regarding your success playing back avx-1 files with DVHSTool and Elecard filters, and it sounds very encouraging.

Steve
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post #922 of 3266 Old 05-31-2003, 04:25 PM
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PVR, thats what my first step will be. Just about have all the s/w loaded.
I am going to pull JVC recordings to the PC with DVHStool.

Is there something special I need to do when you say "DVHStool with Elecard filters?"

Also, in order to try SPDIF audio, this assume I have an audio card that will do this? If so, dont have one in this computer other than the std onboard audio.

Dave
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post #923 of 3266 Old 05-31-2003, 04:28 PM
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If one does need a seperate audio card, what are folks using?

I have been happy with my Turtle beach santa cruz, but havent bought a new card for a while.

Dave
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post #924 of 3266 Old 05-31-2003, 04:36 PM
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I wrestled with onboard Cmedia, but eventually got it working. You should read the DVHStool topic for more ideas.

DVHStool doesn't come with any "playback" filters. It is dependent on you having pre-installed a DVD package, or set of filters from Cyberlink, Sonic/Ravisent, Intervideo (WinDVD) or Elecard.

Once you D/L install the Elecard filters they should be available in the video decoder configuration dialog box in DVHStool. You can click on the option/configure box, and set them for deinterlace, but with no post-process.

I ended up using the "Reclock audio filter" and the "AC3filter" demuxer. You may want to experiment. Reclock is a neat thing, but it may cause cause audio sync problems when playing from tape.

DVHStool is getting pretty good, but it still a work in progress.
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post #925 of 3266 Old 05-31-2003, 05:42 PM
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stjr - You can use your HTPC with free software from Microsoft to play back the files from a DVHS tape.

1) Use DVHSTool to "restore" a file from a tape
2) Use HDTVToMPEG2 to convert the files from transport streams into MPEG2 files
3) Use Windows Media Player to play the files
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post #926 of 3266 Old 05-31-2003, 07:36 PM
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I have not had good luck getting WMP to play full res (1920x1080) HDTV MPEG2 files.

Playing within DVHStool works much better for me.
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post #927 of 3266 Old 05-31-2003, 08:14 PM
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bwooster - I have already tried Zoomplayer, DVHSTool, and Fusion to play back my Hipix and MyHD files. My 1Ghz speed PC's are not fast enough for smooth playback. I don't expect that WMP will be the answer for me. I need more speed. (I don't own a DVHS deck).

The other issue for HDTV software playback IMO is 1080i resolution from the video card. The latest Radeon Catalyst 3.4 drivers allow 1080i playback of 1080i transport streams, but I'm not sure that the overlay can display all the detail properly. I need 1080i for my RPTV.

Without going too far OT, I think that getting the avx-1 captured files to play through the DTC-100 decoder is the best compromise for people that need 1080i playback. Although I am far from an expert, my guess is that this method could work without requiring too much additional tweaking of avx-1 software or a user's HTPC hardware.

Steve
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post #928 of 3266 Old 06-01-2003, 02:25 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by stjr
Without going too far OT, I think that getting the avx-1 captured files to play through the DTC-100 decoder is the best compromise for people that need 1080i playback. Although I am far from an expert, my guess is that this method could work without requiring too much additional tweaking of avx-1 software or a user's HTPC hardware.

Steve,

These files will already play back through the DTC-100 just by recording them to tape and then running firewire through the DTC-100. No PC is needed. Many of us want the PC solution because of the advantages of doing the deinterlacing and scaling there.

--Darin
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post #929 of 3266 Old 06-01-2003, 07:45 AM
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Okay, I need some help.

I have my PC up and going. I have a turtle beach audio card that I have setup for SPDIF output. I have loaded Theatertek s/w which gives me the sonic stuff. I also loaded elecard filters.

So, I used dvhstool and got a file from my JVC. If I go into graph edit, it plays the clip just fine with ac3 showing up on my receiver. (So I assume SPDIF is working correctly.)

But when I try to play the clip via DVHStool clip preview, all I get is an error saying failed to setup correctly. I have the decoders the same that my graph edit has setup.

Any ideas how I can get DVSHTools to not give me this error?

I assume once I get this going, then waiting for the avx-1 update is all I need to try?

Dave
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post #930 of 3266 Old 06-01-2003, 09:25 AM
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Dave,

Have you tried selecting different decoders under the "D-VHS" - "Settings" menu to see if one set of filters might work better than another?

Steve
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