Official Blu-ray HD-DVD Topic - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 368 Old 03-03-2003, 01:27 PM
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If I'm not mistaken Sony is usually one company that sticks to release dates. I think they will have it out in time. I'm not going to spend the price though. Maybe when they drop to $2k I'll buy in, but $4k is a bit much.


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post #92 of 368 Old 03-03-2003, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by chap
That # is almost insane. I don't even think there were 100 films on regular dvd during its first year, and a DVD player didn't cost anywhere near $4000 (well not most of them at least).

As I've said before, when I see it I'll believe it. When I see all the studios onboard I'll also believe it, especially WITHOUT HDCP! I personally think the $4,000 price tag is more than a bit nutty.

I'd also like to know what is it that you can record with this thing? All of a sudden the MPAA is fine with us recording from HBO, Showtime etc? Once again, when I see it I'll believe it. More questions than answers if you ask me. I'll get excited when there's reason to be excited. Sorry for the skepticism.
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post #93 of 368 Old 03-03-2003, 01:41 PM
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post #94 of 368 Old 03-03-2003, 01:58 PM
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When Sony Japan issues a press release complete with photos, dates, and prices, they stick to it.

I'm confident this will ship. Question is how many of you buggers I have to fight with to get one (you're all planning it now!)

-> No longer looking for Hi-Vision LDs <-

(I buried that format finally)


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post #95 of 368 Old 03-03-2003, 02:00 PM
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It really is not a dvd-rw , but a tape cost comparison. When considering it from a achieving stand point.

I have yet to wear out a tape.. and even 20 bucks a disc (vs 5) is too high to archive with.. maybe you have more money then me tho, or don't record and keep much.

also it depends on how this thing gets marketed, dvd-rw has teh advantage of "computer industry and market" pricing pressure. IF this is seen only as a high end consumer electronic device at first, media prices may well not fall as fast.

None the less I hope it does well. It will be great if it is supported with prerecorded titles. I am sure I would buy afew here and there

dvhs is long from obsolete from a recording stand point.

Time will tell, but I like the cost of tape much better, but I hope you are correct and dics drop fast and far.

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post #96 of 368 Old 03-03-2003, 02:13 PM
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This one needs to be watched. The cart is now running ahead of the
horse, the question is, what does it mean when a recordable HD-DVD
format preceeds the prerecorded format ? The answer is, not much.
Studios are going to be releasing on dual layer molded disks. Step
back for minute and think what that means. A recorder can use a sharp
laser beam to record the disk a bit at a time, but there is never going
to be such an animal as a factory with a rack of drives recording disks,
no matter what the speed. What made DVD what it is advances in a
really boring technology -- injection molded polycarbonate plastic disks
with aluminum vacuum deposited coatings. You've just asked this
industry to deliver 4 times their current mechanical tolerances and do
it in volume. Are they gonna do it ? Yep. Is it going to happen right after
sony produces a player ?

I want HDTV 'cause I'm nearsighted !
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post #97 of 368 Old 03-03-2003, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Ross
When I see it I'll believe it.

Am I also the only one that thinks it's odd that all of a sudden all these studios are absolutely comfortable with no HDCP? Very odd.
Nobody is asking you to believe anything. This is just a press release.

We ask for a record-able HDDVD....they deliver. We ask for one format only...they deliver. We ask it sooner...they deliver.

Suddenly, it is very odd?!..?!

I welcome the news like many. Lets not bash the first hddvd recorder just because it is "very odd".

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post #98 of 368 Old 03-03-2003, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by stovetop
Here is a link to the article.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/879923.asp

Releasing next month in Japan for a cool $3800. I can record HD for 2 hours.

EDIT: Hmm.. looks like this needs to be the recorder forum.. which of course, it already is. I usually don't go to that forum though. My mistake!
I would still hold off, way off on this, not because of pricing and availability, because I would hope that one day, they will come up with a standard for playback only HD-DVD equipment that will also record HD content. Is 2 hours all they can record? What about dual layer? What about double sides? Will playback only HD-DVDs have dual layer and sides?

All and all, I think this is a good start. I only hope that the manufaturers keep to only ONE format for recording and playback as I know these multible formats keeps me from jumping on board. As a result, I may just simply get one of them TIVO type DirecTV/HD recorder when they come out. At least that will hold me over till HD-DVD.

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post #99 of 368 Old 03-03-2003, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shameless
I don't know what that source was but firewire is 100-400 M bits per second.

ATSC broadcasts are at, what 19 Mbps?, so Firewire is plenty for HD.

John.

Reference
Yes, 400 with an extention planned to 800.

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post #100 of 368 Old 03-03-2003, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by rogo
Actually, Firewire has to use MPEG-2 as an output. Why? Because it sends a compressed signal to a display that can decode it. That display is going to be an HDTV and that TV will only be able to decode MPEG-2.

There is no way around this short of obsoleting all the Firewire in TVs from using their Firewire inputs.
MPEG-4 is an upward compatible superset of mpeg-2, so there is going
to be a convertion solution that is low silicon area and zero loss. Don't
bother getting upset about it.

I want HDTV 'cause I'm nearsighted !
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post #101 of 368 Old 03-03-2003, 02:46 PM
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I agree, and I didn't mean too, I think it is a great break through, and was just considering the possibly of cost.

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post #102 of 368 Old 03-03-2003, 02:46 PM
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Dual layer dvd's are called that for a reason. There are 2 layers PRESSED TOGETHER. ITs not something that gets burned. You will bever see Dual layer DVD-R. Maybe they will have some form of Double Density, but never Dual layer.


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post #103 of 368 Old 03-03-2003, 02:50 PM
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Keep in mind that this model with component outputs is a Japanese model. Who knows what will be in the american version. They may still put DVI outputs on the box or implement something crazy before it gets released.


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post #104 of 368 Old 03-03-2003, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by David Wallis


Dvd proved just too easy to copy. So giving out HDCP/HDMI and 5C encryption keys will be made much tougher. Sure someone will eventually crack it, but the major commercial groups are not going to be any part of that hacking or selling equipment that gets around this protection.

DavidW
Here we go again. So what are all those people copying DVDs using ?
Component video outputs ? Humm, I seem to recall that those copies are
occuring via computer DIRECT FROM THE DISC.

Exactly what part of getting rid of component video outputs, screwing over
more than a million people who bought component video input HDTV sets
is going to protect Hollywood ?

Perhaps the rapidly growing market for component video recorders that
take component video in, and encode that, via mpeg to a HD stream
for network use ! Here is an extensive list of such units:

I want HDTV 'cause I'm nearsighted !
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post #105 of 368 Old 03-03-2003, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Ross
Mike, you better also worry about studio support? Sound familiar? Keep in mind without DVI/HDCP, many studios may say to even the "great" Sony, take a walk. Without considerable software we're back to D-Theater. I think we've been educated by that experience. I'm not jumping in to this one Mike, THAT'S FOR SURE! Stay tuned.
The studios are going to piss and moan, and then in the end be satisfied
by a combination of strong disc encryption combined with a general lack
of ANY reasonable ability to record directly from the component video
outputs, and finally with the idea that a pure digital output is going to
eventually replace component out even if they are both provided on new
units for the foreeable future.

The American consumer has never responded well to force. The only
way forward for DVI or firewire now is for people to stop tying it to
copy protection and let it proceed on its own merits. Otherwise,
the only thing John Q Public is going to remember is that DVI/firewire
has something to do with copy protection, and is to be avoided.

I want HDTV 'cause I'm nearsighted !
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post #106 of 368 Old 03-03-2003, 03:12 PM
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Hey, it already went down in price $200 ! ($4000 to $3800) Yea !

I want HDTV 'cause I'm nearsighted !
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post #107 of 368 Old 03-03-2003, 03:24 PM
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> We ask for one format only...they deliver.

I wouldn't count on that -- my suspicion is that this announcement will propel the competing blue laser DVD group into high gear, and they'll have an announcement of their own soon.
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post #108 of 368 Old 03-03-2003, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Ross
Kipp, you're in denial, but who am I to splash cold water on your face. It makes no difference whether it's DVI or HDMI, it's all the same. An adapter will make them compatible as Anthony has already stated. Having the audio onboard is no biggie and the fact remains that the VAST majority of new displays have DVI/HDCP and those ARE from CE manufacturers. If you think that implies "Fading" then so be it. Check out Channel 201 on DirecTV with a DVI non HDCP display and tell me this thing is "fading". Whatever. :rolleyes:
O.K. Ken, yeah, I'm in denial. It has been quite clear for along time that DVI is backward compatible with HDMI, do you have to keep repeating it???:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: My point is HDMI will be added now and DVI is fading. Understand???? 201 comes in fine for me with component. No need for DVI or HDCP. I'm switching to Dish who IS supporting a complete 1394 HD solution with no DVI/HDMI/HDCP needed. :p Get ready to keep writing checks to Hollywood with DVI/HDMI while the 1394 bandwagon records, achieves and networks HD. Have fun!:D :D :D :p

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post #109 of 368 Old 03-03-2003, 03:42 PM
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Kipp your arguments are so shallow and contradictory and your logic so faulty that I hardly know where to begin. First, you seem to be trumpteting HDMI over DVI when they are in essence the same damn thing...not just compatible, but from the standpoint we're talking about - using an uncompressed digital signal, they are the same damn thing. So you keep saying that FW is making more progress than DVI b/c HDMI is supplanting DVI when that's ridiculous - if you really think that HDMI is coming along quickly, then you agree with us. You'd better have an HD display with either a DVI-HDCP or an HDMI input.

As for this whole notion that somehow a world of FW will not mean a world of pay per use/view capabilities but DVI/HDMI will, you're way off. If you think a world of FW will allow free archiving of anything you want, you are in for a pretty rude awakening.

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post #110 of 368 Old 03-03-2003, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Thomas Desmond

I wouldn't count on that -- my suspicion is that this announcement will propel the competing blue laser DVD group into high gear, and they'll have an announcement of their own soon.
Won't matter...

If Sony delivers April 10, that's much more than an announcement. This also foreshadows other Blu-Ray proponents (Panasonic, Samsung, Pioneer, etc.) having Blu-Ray products shortly.

I also *hope* that means we'll see some Columbia/Tri-Star movies by XMas, even if Japanese only releases. Sony's first releases for Hi-Vision laserdisc were prominent titles, and hoping the same holds true here (In the Line of Fire, Close Encounters, Legends of the Fall, etc.)

-> No longer looking for Hi-Vision LDs <-

(I buried that format finally)


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post #111 of 368 Old 03-03-2003, 03:55 PM
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Are you sure it's "proprietary" ? If I'm not mistaken, S200 usually is a small connector version of IEEE1394, aka firewire (i-link). JVC 30k has S200 connectors as well as some STBs with firewire connection.
Well thats the big 100% question ? I think we need to see much more info and/or better yet get a machine connected to a Jvc 30k or a Samsung T165.

The price of software will drop over time. I doubt we could say exactly how low the machine price will become in some of the better and more well known Japanese discount shopping areas.


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post #112 of 368 Old 03-03-2003, 03:58 PM
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After tax it will probably be $4k anyway :-).


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post #113 of 368 Old 03-03-2003, 03:59 PM
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I agree with the bwik -- Sony sticks to their guns. They will eat JVC for breakfast when it comes to high end deployment, class, sophisticated hardware and overall quality. This dog hunts very well. Component out is a sure sign they have a confident CP encryption device onboard the disk where it belongs.

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post #114 of 368 Old 03-03-2003, 04:06 PM
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Tony you make me giggle. I have made my point. Enjoy your DVI!:p

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post #115 of 368 Old 03-03-2003, 04:28 PM
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Quote:

The thought of streaming an HD DVD on the Internet sends chills down the spines of the Hollywood elite. This may not be practical today, but it will be in the not too distant future.

Now, add to this the fact that virtually all HD display devices are now coming out with DVI/HDCP and you'll see that THAT is the market that Hollywood will eventually seek. We early adapters are not on the radar screen. Certainly not when compared to the paranoia of the MPAA.
Exactly.
DVI is the preferred flavor for hooking up to a display device and as far as video is concerned both HDCP and HDMI are identical twins.

If you do not have a HDCP/HDMI DVI or a 5C IEEE1394a input you are not going to be watching much pre recorded HD-Dvd software. Its basically D-Theater but with more manufacturers.

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post #116 of 368 Old 03-03-2003, 04:41 PM
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What do you think the chances are that they'll use CSS ? :)

Fair Use - Protected by 15-year old Norwegian kids since 1999!
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post #117 of 368 Old 03-03-2003, 04:50 PM
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Sony NO Baloney ?
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post #118 of 368 Old 03-03-2003, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Here we go again. So what are all those people copying DVDs using ?
Component video outputs ? Humm, I seem to recall that those copies are
occuring via computer DIRECT FROM THE DISC.
For an exact bit for bit replica, you use a computer of course.
With the ripping freeware available everywhere, its no wonder they want to shut out the PC hackers.
Which is exactly why they do not want anything breaking the copy protected chain, which has to remain in the digital domain to have any chance of success. I really see them wanting to keep the PC out of the HDCP/HDMI and 5C picture. I can not see anyone wanting to be giving the encryption keys away to the PC industry who considers copying software as a normal daily activity. Hollywood is paranoid of its software becoming an Internet freebie.

People may laugh at such fear, but with the pirates out there I really can understand how they can see the dark side.

Quote:
Exactly what part of getting rid of component video outputs, screwing over
more than a million people who bought component video input HDTV sets
is going to protect Hollywood ?
I never said it did.
No one that I know has ever said that shutting down analog component outputs made any common sense. After all, besides the very expensive analog W-VHS, what else can record HD analog component outputs ?

I maybe splitting hair here but I think it has a lot less to do with the allowance of physical component outputs. It has more to do with keeping it digital because that way they can control the whole digital chain. Controlling (encryption of) an analog chain is pretty much impossible. Keeping the PC out of getting access to the encryption keys which will be used for pre recorded HD-Dvd software will be of major concern.

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post #119 of 368 Old 03-03-2003, 05:22 PM
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You know, if these guys were on the ball at all, they would have incorporated real-time TS to MPEG2 conversion to increase storage time by up to 40%. Storing null packets on $30 disks is a waste. Plus, you're stuck with 2 disks for movies > 2hrs. $60 to archive 1 movie is going to be a little hard to justify for many of us.

A stripped down plain IDE drive version in a pc would be much more attractive to me.

Joe
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post #120 of 368 Old 03-03-2003, 06:18 PM
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Sony is still trying to deal with getting the mp3 player long before they
figured out how to sell their music. I doubt they will get their studio on
board before summer 04'.

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