Official Blu-ray HD-DVD Topic - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 368 Old 03-04-2003, 10:13 AM
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Please point me to a source that says the DVD Forum has decided on MPEG2 for blu-ray. But I don't think you can, because the decision has not been made.
If it wasn't clear, the DVD-Forum may be a moot point for HD-DVD. The manufacturers have made it abundantly clear they don't want to support red-laser based HD, nor do they support Toshiba/NEC's proposal.

In one corner, weighing in at 2 members you've got Toshiba/NEC proposing a lower capacity HD-DVD format that will likely be 'approved' by the DVD-Forum.

In the other corner you've got 9 members (Sony, Matsushita, Phillips, Pioneer, Samsung, Sharp, LG, Thompson/RCA, Hitachi) supporting Blu-Ray.

Aside from the Hollywood stance which seems to not be taking sides, I'd say this next time around it may be a breakaway "Blu-Ray Forum" with their own equipment, own standards, and trying to get Hollywood to back them.

It's totally feasible that could happen. A big reason why Sony/Phillips had to integrate their DVD competitive product with Toshiba's (which created the DVD-Forum) was because studios backed the Toshiba format (which had most of the consumer electronics manufacturers backing it).

Now, it is the DVD-Forum that finds itself at odds with the majority of the major manufacturers.

Dunno, this could be the start of a new body/company.

Just because it isn't 'approved' by the DVD-Forum doesn't mean it won't get support or die. The DVD-Forum isn't the United Nations...then again, it might be impotent just like the U.N :D

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post #182 of 368 Old 03-04-2003, 10:29 AM
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Originally posted by MikeM
In your rush to be sarcastic and negative, you made the fatal flaw of mixing facts with fiction. DTheater's slow release schedule has absolutely nothing to do with confidence or lack thereof in encryption technology or filling the analog hole.
Now you're presenting opinion as fact.

All I did was present two facts: (1.) All current D-Theater releases allow for full resolution analog output. (2.) There has been limited studio support for D-Theater. You're the one that made the 'fatal flaw' of assuming that just because mulitple facts are presented in the same context, they allow for some sort of natural conclusion. I suggest staying away from Michael Moore movies ... he uses the same technique all the time.

Exactly what facts allow you to reach your above opinion?
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post #183 of 368 Old 03-04-2003, 10:43 AM
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Bwiklem: good analogy with the UN (or the NATO, works too :) ).
very interesting months ahead !
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post #184 of 368 Old 03-04-2003, 10:48 AM
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Originally posted by Ken Ross
Kipp, there is a difference between changing a format that the public already owns (satellite, cable etc) and introducing a NEW format with a different version of copy protection. I can much more easily see legal action against a change in CP schemes for current formats that would deprive the user of something he once had as opposed to new, not yet introduced formats. I don't see any legal recourse for a new format with new ground rules. You could make a much better case for a business rationale (a more entrenched analog HD community) than you could for legal recourse. In other words an HDCP equipped HD DVD system is not depriving any CURRENT owner of "non use" of their HD DVD machine since there is no "current owner" of such a device.
I understand your point but in the hearings I was viewing (with CEO's from NBC, ABC, CBS and so on) they were talking about DTV and copy protection specifically including interfaces. Blocking consumers from receiving a signal was completely out of the question as when the topic was brought up, the committee made it clear that restrictions were out of the question.

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post #185 of 368 Old 03-04-2003, 10:49 AM
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MikeM

hi

well, you raise a good point about no need for htpc, scalers etc.... this does not make everyone happy since the market for these stuff is first guys like us vs the masses :D

true we won't need these no more unless we get projectors with native chips of 3048x1536 :D :D :D

anyway, the right high def sources will allow us to finally enjoy movies in their best glory without tweaking this or that. I mean bit screens at home (if the pj is bright enough), like 13ft screens. I'm cutting on my dvd purchases :)
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post #186 of 368 Old 03-04-2003, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dylan Savage
Well lets not all start sucking each others d...s just yet. I'm hopeful that this is a sign that things are going to start moving.. I want HD-DVD as much as the next guy. Guard your words though, and let us know about some hard news.. try to keep the speculation and cheerleading to a minimum.
And Dylan that is the problem. Some go off like this thing is in the bag, we'll have 100s of titles shortly after launch,, there will be no competing formats, there will be no blocking of FULL REZ analog components etc etc.

As I said, when I see a release date for the U.S., when I see the studios that are on board, when I see what type of UNRESTRICTED outputs there are, when I see how many competing formats there are some of which will be certainly doomed to extinction, THEN I'll get excited. Until then this is all speculation and nothing more. If it isn't speculation then please point me to some press release that says otherwise (non Japanese please). The Japanese deck is a totally different animal then will arrive here whenever it arrives here. I want this as much as the next guy, but boy some of the stuff I'm reading here......
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post #187 of 368 Old 03-04-2003, 10:55 AM
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THE ENQUIRER article is wrong about data rate but ok, they're beginners :D

FOX is a studio that seems to have already sided with Warner and Microsoft though...
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post #188 of 368 Old 03-04-2003, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by MikeM
There is no comparison on that score between tape and disk and that's what is driving this thing.
Mike, not to be cynical, but nobody forced you to get D-Theater. In fact you said on many occasions that DVDs looked almost as good as HD to you. That will not change with HD-DVD ASSUMING it is as good as D-Theater (when it works).
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post #189 of 368 Old 03-04-2003, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by kippjones
I understand your point but in the hearings I was viewing (with CEO's from NBC, ABC, CBS and so on) they were talking about DTV and copy protection specifically including interfaces. Blocking consumers from receiving a signal was completely out of the question as when the topic was brought up, the committee made it clear that restrictions were out of the question.
That's correct and as you can see that discussion related to BROADCASTS and in no way had any connection whatsoever with HD-DVD. If the new HD-DVD format requires DVI/HDCP and you don't have it, well then you don't buy it. No congressional hearings necessary.
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post #190 of 368 Old 03-04-2003, 11:36 AM
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That's correct and as you can see that discussion related to BROADCASTS and in no way had any connection whatsoever with HD-DVD. If the new HD-DVD format requires DVI/HDCP and you don't have it, well then you don't buy it. No congressional hearings necessary.
Exactly right. The Congress / FCC has no part or responsibility in setting DVD standards.
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post #191 of 368 Old 03-04-2003, 11:44 AM
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I've read that dual-layer Blu-ray discs will be ~50GB, which certainly seems supportable considering there are 27GB single-layer discs. With lets say, 54GB to play with, that gives you 4.8 hours of HD @ 25Mbit/s, or 6.3 hours of HD @ 19Mbit/s. That is pretty impressive. I think it's safe to say that any pre-recorded disc would be a dual-layer disc, unless it's a pretty short movie with few extra features. This means there shouldn't be any 2-disc HD movie releases, even a 3 hour + movie like The Godfather Part II, which comes on 2 DVD's, would fit on 1 HD-DVD @ 25Mbit/s. Thats pretty nice.

I wonder what the holdup for these guys is? Re-do CSS, don't give licenses to any software players this time, and they should have pretty much unbreakable on-disc encryption. This should be ready to roll.

Anybody else wonder why these "standards bodies" take months to figure something out that 3 engineers could figure out over beers in 10 minutes?

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post #192 of 368 Old 03-04-2003, 11:50 AM
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Originally posted by dt_dc
Indeed, with the overwhelming number of major studio releases on D-Theater, how could anyone doubt the studio's support for full resolution analog outputs ... going out to buy National Lampoon’s Van Wilder now. :rolleyes:
Above is the statement owned by you. Your unmistakeable inference is that fear of the analog hole held up or continues to hold up DTheater releases as well as more studios supporting the format. You are the one drawing conclusions and rolling your eyes. All I did was to point out to you that that is a misstatement of the facts if that is your conclusion. No one could read that post and think otherwise.

If you're going to insist that I lead you to several articles in which a number of the participating studio executive heads talk about the problems associated with delivering more DTheater content (JVC's lack of production facilities and the reliance of their Japan manufacturing unit to reproduce all of these tapes, the original idea of a US based facility being abandoned until DTheater proves it could support such an investment etc.) then I will gladly do so, but it will take me an hour or so to search Digital Bits and other web sites that have conducted interviews with Fox's Peter Staddon and others. NOt anywhere in any of these articles or in any published medium is there an inference by these studios that the analog hole is what's preventing them from coming on board or from churning out more titles.

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post #193 of 368 Old 03-04-2003, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Ross
Mike, not to be cynical, but nobody forced you to get D-Theater. In fact you said on many occasions that DVDs looked almost as good as HD to you. That will not change with HD-DVD ASSUMING it is as good as D-Theater (when it works).
Ken:

It's a good thing I like you :)

You forced me to get DTheater. Maybe you didn't hold a gun to my head but you wrote a whole treatise on the subject here trying to convince me and others why they should. Ultimately, I gave in to your rationale and let curiousity get the better of me. Thankfully, I haven't experienced the performance problems you and others have with the deck.

HD DVD, whether it's miles above DVD or just a few steps, is worth the investment since it's my belief that it will eventually become a standard many years from now. I never felt that way about tape and therefore my reticence to throw money into it. I always knew they would not be able to turn out enough titles to get us off DVD, so again I was reluctant. I have no such qualms about HD DVD. You might, which is why I recommend you stay where you are with what you got -- a non-working JVC 30K.

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post #194 of 368 Old 03-04-2003, 12:01 PM
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Another big question is: Do we re-buy titles we own on DVD on HD-DVD? It's not a question of will they give it to us, because they certainly will not... but would you re-buy titles you have? :) Maybe I'll start a poll.

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post #195 of 368 Old 03-04-2003, 12:27 PM
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About pre-recorded Blu-ray movies:

Ronald Epstien, the owner of hometheaterforum.com reported on one of his annual trips to the hollywood studios late last year...here is a quote from the first post in that thread:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The good news is that the studios are indeed gearing up toward HD-DVD. While we do hope that all the studios pick one format, Sony has promised us that their players will be backward compatible.
It is estimated that by year's end 2003, we will be seeing the first High-definition DVD titles hit the shelves.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf...?threadid=97026

To me, this excerpt says a few things:

1-Sony will be bringing a Blu-ray player to the states

2-It will arrive in 2003

3-One or more studios (note the plural in the quote) are attempting to release pre-recorded High-def Blu-ray movie in the US in 2003

It would be intresting to query Ron to fess up more details about Sony's plan for Blu-ray in the states...
Rubbish !
HD-Dvd is not nessesarily BluRay.
Absolutely "No Studio" has said its content will be available on "BluRay".
HD-Dvd does not only = BluRay.

No matter how loud people are singing for BluRay right at this moment, the Pre-recorded software will not be available on BluRay anytime soon, and the truth is it may never be available for BluRay.

I love HD and I really want a high bit rate pre-recorded HD-Dvd format ASAP. But the reality is "We need to stop the tabloid gossip" which is just plain hype and mostly bullsh#t. BluRay is a recordable HD system that is not available just yet at your local Best Buy store. No pre-recorded software is 100% planned at this stage for release in the BluRay format.

Quote:
Quote by Ronald Epstien:

I do have witnesses that sat in a meeting with me while we talked with a particular studio who (at the time) was estimating a 2003 HD launch date.

That, of course, has now changed
Far too many people here are just making up stories and getting all excited over vaporware. Lets get a grip on things shall we. If anyone has an official studio announcement for the support of pre-recorded BluRay software "Speak Up Now" or if what you say is make believe, "say zip" because we do not need to spread more lies and hype which will only serve to confuse the already confused.



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post #196 of 368 Old 03-04-2003, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by MikeM
Ken:

It's a good thing I like you :)

You forced me to get DTheater. Maybe you didn't hold a gun to my head but you wrote a whole treatise on the subject here trying to convince me and others why they should...HD DVD, whether it's miles above DVD or just a few steps, is worth the investment since it's my belief that it will eventually become a standard many years from now.
The main objective with D-Theater was PQ. By that standard it delivered and then some. I don't believe too many would dispute that. So I don't feel badly I "convinced" you. What nobody realized or could have foreseen was the incredibly poor reliability of this machine. I got burned just as over 50% of the buyers did.

I certainly disagree with you in respect to the issue of PQ of the new HD-DVD format. It certainly will never get my money if it's only "a few steps" ahead of DVD. HD is all ABOUT PQ and if it is not true HD I could care less. It will get my money if it's essentially at the level of D-Theater, there are not 3 competing formats and the studios are all on board. You know the old saying "fool me once........".

And yes Mike, if I didn't like YOU I would have smacked you. ;)
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post #197 of 368 Old 03-04-2003, 12:29 PM
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All I know is during Christmas there were HD sets (without tuners) for as low as $700. And now they are all getting tuners, and this year there will be PVRs, and Comcast now has HDTV cable in my area. And this BlueRay is out for $3,800 in Japan, which is vastly better than being in a lab somewhere. 2003 is the year of HDTV making a dent. And 2004 will be the big surge. 10 years later than expected, but better Nate than Lever.
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post #198 of 368 Old 03-04-2003, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Ross
The main objective with D-Theater was PQ. By that standard it delivered and then some. I don't believe too many would dispute that. So I don't feel badly I "convinced" you. What nobody realized or could have foreseen was the incredibly poor reliability of this machine. I got burned just as over 50% of the buyers did.

I certainly disagree with you in respect to the issue of PQ of the new HD-DVD format. It certainly will never get my money if it's only "a few steps" ahead of DVD. HD is all ABOUT PQ and if it is not true HD I could care less. It will get my money if it's essentially at the level of D-Theater, there are not 3 competing formats and the studios are all on board. You know the old saying "fool me once........".

And yes Mike, if I didn't like YOU I would have smacked you. ;)
Ken:

No one can blame you for being cautious and certainly no one gets points or demerits for the early support, or lack thereof, of blu-ray HD DVD. You are 100 % right that when it is finally here (Xmas) then the debate can be better focused on just what this thing will do and the benefits thereof. In the meantime, there's nothing wrong with being a cheerleader for what everyone hopes is the definitive answer.

If I didn't like YOU , I still wouldn't smack you. Even worse, I'd turn you over to that team of psychiatrists currently treating those executives at JVC that are close to committing hari-kari due to the shame they currently feel for allowing the 30K out the door.

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post #199 of 368 Old 03-04-2003, 01:23 PM
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Originally posted by MikeM
Even worse, I'd turn you over to that team of psychiatrists currently treating those executives at JVC that are close to committing hari-kari due to the shame they currently feel for allowing the 30K out the door.
I wonder if they're still in denial?
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post #200 of 368 Old 03-04-2003, 01:37 PM
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The other question about MPEG4 and WMP9 concerns costs. I know MPEG4 definitely requires royalties and MS is in the business of making money, although they've made certain technologies "free" to gain market share.

How will royalties for any new compression affect the prices of hardware and software?
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post #201 of 368 Old 03-04-2003, 01:41 PM
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is anyone aware of this: MPAA + INTEL + MICROSOFT working on HD via internet, special super processor from Intel, super compression algorythms by Msft lab freaks ?

anyway, some stories never succeeded, like minidisc, betamax, v2000 etc.

but this stuff, blue ray TRUE hd, I want to believe it. I think there is enough a market of video freaks like us in Japan and US and even in Europe, ready with rptc, crt, dlp, dila, lcd , well, a much larger market than there ever was for laserdisc for instance, so that these people will buy a HD player and some discs, let's say 20 or 30 the first year.
and the slowly replace their dvd collection, perhaps with great movies that have poor transfer (keep superbit in the beginning therefore).

yet, recession is here and lasting (2007-2010) and blue ray requires investments from the manufacturers, yet, since most of them are behind blue ray, I figure these investments have been tought about...

I'd like some comments on this post :D
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post #202 of 368 Old 03-04-2003, 10:11 PM
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Hi All,

I have a few questions with some answers for you!

1) What is the current compression standard use by ATSC OTA broadcasting, Digital Cable, and Dish Sat? Can we all say MPEG2.

2) What compression format that an HD-DVD recorder would have to support to record ATSC OTA, Digital Cable, and Dish Sat? Can we all say MPEG2!

Now that we got that straight, do you all now realize that standard compression of HD-DVD recorders will be MPEG2.

Now I have a final question for you MPEG4 and WM supporters. Why in hell would you use a different compression scheam for HD-DVD player.

You guys are not thinking logically. The manufactures wants to sell us on HD-DVD recorders. In order to record all of the above mentioned data streams the HD-DVD recorders has to support MPEG2.

Now you say, oh we can put in conversion chip to convert the data streams to some other compression format. I say you are non-logical because converting data streams to different compression formats will cost more money.

So with all of the Blu-ray recorders out in the market place, Hollywood will see the light and produce Blu-ray prerecorded HD-DVD disks. Hay they want to sell us content. Guys, history does repeat itself, remember what happened with Video Tape.

As for D-VHS, I think it a great format. My Mits D-VHS plays all of my old tapes and records in HD. The JVC D-VHS deck is a bad poorly disigned product. The Mits D-VHS deck works as expected.

So it doesn't matter what ever the DVD-Forum decides. When HD-DVD Blu-ray recorder gets below $600, I will by one, only if it uses Firewire interface. No Firewire-no sell.

As Kipp says, no DVI/HDMI needed.

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post #203 of 368 Old 03-04-2003, 10:27 PM
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well, seems blue ray has an advance thus on the microsoft and the toshiba nec proposals then: the MPEG2 compatibility with HDTV programming encoding.

we should expect some announcements/reactions from these 2 groups soon.
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post #204 of 368 Old 03-05-2003, 12:40 AM
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Bruce,
Quote:
Now that we got that straight, do you all now realize that standard compression of HD-DVD recorders will be MPEG2.

Now I have a final question for you MPEG4 and WM supporters. Why in hell would you use a different compression scheam for HD-DVD player.
I think you may be a little confused. The reason for MPEG4 H.264 or WM9 is obvious--better picture quality. The new codecs are more efficient, which means you get a better picture in the same bandwidth, even a better picture in somewhat less bandwidth. The new codecs also do much better with progressive encoding, thus making 1080p a reality, even for single layer disks. Of course, most of the hardware decoders for these new codecs will also do MPEG2, so it's not a question of either/or.

Quote:
Now you say, oh we can put in conversion chip to convert the data streams to some other compression format. I say you are non-logical because converting data streams to different compression formats will cost more money.
HDTV recorders will continue to use MPEG2 for ATSC HDTV, of course. For recording HDTV, no encoding is needed, they will simply save the digital bitstream to disk. All known announced MPEG4 H.264 and WM9 chipsets, and probably most in the future, also offer full MPEG2 compatibility.

Below I will once again refer to January 2003 article earlier in this thread. Despite the fact that some consumer electronics vendors are not interested in a red-laser DVD standard, all are apparently supporting a new encoding standard for HD-DVD.

Quote:
LAS VEGAS [January 13, 2003]— After much delay, the DVD Forum will select an advanced encoder/decoder for the HD-DVD format in the next few months, allowing development of next-generation DVD systems to move forward. The failure of the standards-setting body to select a codec for the HD-DVD format has stalled work at chip and systems vendors and delayed the arrival of next-generation DVD products.

Hisashi Yamada, chairman of the DVD Forum's Working Group-1 and chief fellow of technology for Toshiba Corp., told EE Times at CES that the DVD Forum will complete its codec selection process and publicly announce its decision in March. Forum representatives previously said they planned to complete their work by mid-2002.
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The DVD Forum appears to be considering several codecs as candidates. These include H.264, the technical specification of which is scheduled to be frozen in March; MPEG-4 Advanced Simple Profile; MPEG-2 with a so-called "enhancement layer;" and Microsoft Corp.'s Windows Media 9....Many in the chip industry believe the DVD Forum will select H.264, which is currently being pursued by many consumer electronics companies.

The DVD Forum's selection of a codec is complex and intensely political because many forum member companies hope to apply blue laser technology to next-generation DVD recorders/players. While some are developing red laser-based HD-DVD players, others are said to be promoting dual laser, red- and blue-based HD-DVD systems. Even those in the blue-laser camp are divided, with some pushing the Blu-Ray as a standard, while Toshiba, NEC and others are proposing another blue-laser system. Despite the possible confusion, DVD Forum members are believed to be in agreement on adopting a new low-bit-rate codec for HD-DVD.
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Sony is scheduled to launch its first Blu-Ray products in Japan "shortly," Ando said. This product will not target the consumer DVD market, however, but rather "business-to-business" HD applications, [Sony Corp.'s chief operating officer] Ando said. Blu-Ray-based consumer products won't start appearing until early 2005, he predicted.
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post #205 of 368 Old 03-05-2003, 01:15 AM
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How will royalties for any new compression affect the prices of hardware and software?
For Windows Media 9, the royalty fees are 10 cents per decoder (DVD player), 20 cents per encoder (DVD recorder supporting analog), and 25 cents for both. In comparison, MPEG4 royalty fees are 25 cents per decoder (DVD player), 25 cents per encoder, or 50 cents for both, with an annual cap (maximum per company) of $100,000.

Compare that to the cost of MPEG-2 licensing, as applicable to the current DVD standard and DVD players:
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(1) For MPEG-2 decoding products in hardware or software (such as those found in set-top boxes, DVD players and computers equipped with MPEG-2 decode units), the royalty is US $4.00 for each decode unit prior to January 1, 2002/$2.50 from January 1, 2002 (Sections 2.2 and 3.1.1).

(2) For MPEG-2 encoding products in hardware or software, the royalty is US $4.00 prior to January 1, 2002/$2.50 from January 1, 2002 for each encode unit (Sections 2.3 and 3.1.2). This does not grant a license to use MPEG-2 encoding products to encode/produce DVDs or other MPEG-2 packaged medium for other than personal use of Licensee’s customer, however; the grant to encode/produce DVDs or other MPEG-2 packaged medium for other than personal use of Licensee’s customer is covered by the sublicense for MPEG-2 packaged medium, and the royalties for that sublicense are assessed on the MPEG-2 packaged medium itself (see (5) below). Encoding product Licensees are required to give notice (covering the exclusion from the sublicense granted by Section 2.3) that encoding products may not be used in any manner for encoding MPEG-2 Packaged Media without a license under applicable patents (Section 7.16).

(3) For MPEG-2 distribution encoding products (e.g., for real time terrestrial, cable, satellite etc. broadcast and/or distribution), the royalty is US $4.00 prior to January 1, 2002/$2.50 from January 1, 2002 times the number of channels for providing encoded video information that can be encoded in parallel (Sections 2.3 and 3.1.3).

(4) For MPEG-2 Transport or Program stream products such as file servers or multiplexers that multiplex or demultiplex MPEG-2 bitstreams, the royalty is US $4.00 times the greater of the input or output transport or program streams relevant to the specific device (Sections 2.5 and 3.1.5).

(5) For MPEG-2 Packaged Media, the royalty is US $0.04 before September 1, 2001/$0.035 from September 1, 2001 to March 1, 2003/$0.03 from March 1, 2003 for the first MPEG-2 Video Event, plus $0.01 for each additional 30 minutes or portion recorded on the same copy, but not to exceed (a) US $0.04 before September 1, 2001/$0.035 from September 1, 2001 to March 1, 2003/$0.03 from March 1, 2003 for a single Movie, (b) US $0.02 for the second Movie recorded on the same copy as the first Movie, and (c) US $0.01 for each copy having a normal playing time up to and including but not more than 12 minutes of video programming encoded into an MPEG-2 compliant format (Sections 2.4 and 3.1.6-3.1.8). "MPEG-2 Video Event" (Section 1.28) is a unit of video information having a normal playing time of any length up to and including 133 minutes, and "Movie" (Section 1.10) is a single motion picture and related materials but not a second motion picture whether or not related. (Note: There is also an alternative which applies only to MPEG-2 Packaged Medium that complies with DVD Specifications for Read-Only Disc Version 1.01 instead of that provided in Sections 2.4 and 3.1.6-3.1.8 of the License: US $0.04 before September 1, 2001/$0.035 from September 1, 2001 to March 1, 2003/$0.03 from March 1, 2003 per disc having a single encoded layer, US $0.06 per disc having two encoded layers, plus US $0.02 per disc for each encoded layer more than two but not to exceed US $0.04 before September 1, 2001/$0.035 from September 1, 2001 to March 1, 2003/$0.03 from March 1, 2003 for a single Movie.)

(6) A royalty of $6 (US) prior to January 1, 2002 /$2.50 from January 1, 2002 per unit applies to Consumer Products (defined in Section 1.5) such as camcorders, read/write DVD players, computers and/or software, etc having both encoding and decoding capabilities (Section 3.1.4).
So the royalty fees for MPEG2 used on DVD players were 40 times the cost of Microsoft WM9 royalties, and 16 times the cost of MPEG4 royalties. As of January 1, 2002, MPEG2 royalties are 25 times the cost of WM9 and 10 times the cost of MPEG4. Thus, licensing fees for these new formats are minimal compared to that for MPEG-2.

For another reference, consider that royalties for MP3 audio are 75 cents per decoder, and 75 per cents for encoder. So MP3 capability costs more than seven times as much as WM9, and three times as much as MPEG-4. And a number of DVD players already incorporate MP3 playback.

As far as royalty costs for the studios... For every DVD sold, the studios must pay 3.5 cents in MPEG2 royalties for single layer titles, and 6 cents for every dual layer title, with no cap on fees. By comparison, MPEG4 licensing is set at 2 cents per hour for DVD, but capped at $1 million per company. In contrast, I don't believe there are any per-hour royalties for WM9, but I am not certain of that. So these new formats could potentially save the studios millions in royalties on their DVD titles.

If future HD-DVD players and recorders could replace MPEG-2 with H.264 or WM9, that would substantially cut their costs. However, given that a future HD-DVD standard will probably also have to support the MPEG-2 standard for backward compatibility, I doubt the consumer electronics vendors will be saving any money. But even so, the licensing fees for WM9 and MPEG4 are still only a fraction of those required to support MP3 audio.
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post #206 of 368 Old 03-05-2003, 03:21 AM
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bfdtv,

very insightful, and interesting analogy there. I do hope we get better compression algorithm than MPEG2 for HD-DVD.

Desperately in pursuit of the perfect image....
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post #207 of 368 Old 03-05-2003, 04:00 AM
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well, money has talked and therefore, we only have to hope that the new encoding algorythms will deliver us TRUE hd images and not PSEUDO hd...

don't sell you dvds yet guys :D

btw, here are images of the back panel of the Sony blue ray recorder:
http://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/v...r=asc&start=60
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post #208 of 368 Old 03-05-2003, 04:18 AM
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Why in the HECK would the MPAA allow a FireWire/5C interface on a HD-DVD player, when there are D-VHS recorders and there will soon be blue-laser HD-DVD recorders, that use this interface for 1080i/720p HD recording??? IMO, HDMI-DVI/HDCP will be the ONLY 1080i/720p interface on a HD-DVD player. Because: there will NEVER be a HD recorder that uses this interface for recording, it's digital, it's uncompressed, and it has HDCP. Its perfect for use as a super secure interface on a HD-DVD player. Oh; they can't do that, for you bought a Mits and even with the PM, you don't have a HDMI-DVI/HDCP interface, or your an early adaptor and you only have an analog component interface on your HD display??? Do you actually believe that the MPAA gives a rat's a*s about the amount of $$$$$ that you have spent on an HD display, when it comes to protecting their movies on HD-DVDs??? They aren't going to compromise the security of their movies on HD-DVDs, just because you don't have the most secure interface, on your HD display. A HDMI-DVI/HDCP interface is a MUST-HAVE on your HD display. That's not an opinion; that's a FACT, beyond any reasonable doubt. Believe it. Dick
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post #209 of 368 Old 03-05-2003, 05:47 AM
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Originally posted by DICK CONWAY
Why in the HECK would the MPAA allow a FireWire/5C interface on a HD-DVD player, when there are D-VHS recorders and there will soon be blue-laser HD-DVD recorders, that use this interface for 1080i/720p HD recording??? IMO, HDMI-DVI/HDCP will be the ONLY 1080i/720p interface on a HD-DVD player. Because: there will NEVER be a HD recorder that uses this interface for recording, it's digital, it's uncompressed, and it has HDCP. Its perfect for use as a super secure interface on a HD-DVD player. Oh; they can't do that, for you bought a Mits and even with the PM, you don't have a HDMI-DVI/HDCP interface, or your an early adaptor and you only have an analog component interface on your HD display??? Do you actually believe that the MPAA gives a rat's a*s about the amount of $$$$$ that you have spent on an HD display, when it comes to protecting their movies on HD-DVDs??? They aren't going to compromise the security of their movies on HD-DVDs, just because you don't have the most secure interface, on your HD display. A HDMI-DVI/HDCP interface is a MUST-HAVE on your HD display. That's not an opinion; that's a FACT, beyond any reasonable doubt. Believe it. Dick
Again, this is pure rubbish and a total misreading of the situation if you are implying that the pre-recorded HD DVD disks will rely on DVI outputs. The encryption protection will be on the disks themselves, just like DTheater tapes contain the encryption themselves. As for recording, that's a whole different story and I agree with your premise, but not the playback of Hoillywood produced HD DVDs.

Hell, I can get you a toe by 3 o'clock this afternoon...with nail polish.
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post #210 of 368 Old 03-05-2003, 06:15 AM
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There's a whole group of people who appear to enjoy taunting others with the whole DVI/HDCP thing, "oh what you're just mad because you don't have the newest connector, neener neener neener" .. it's old and I wish the mods would put a stop to it.

Fair Use - Protected by 15-year old Norwegian kids since 1999!
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