What are all of you OTA only DVR owners going to do when ATSC1 goes away?? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 37 Old 05-14-2017, 06:12 AM - Thread Starter
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What are all of you OTA only DVR owners going to do when ATSC1 goes away??

This orchestrated, planned obsolesce of ATSC that has only been fully in effect since 2009 seems to be courtesy of the Networks & Hollywood to stop 'time shifting' of programming (AKA skipping commercials). Then add the wireless industries claimed need for more spectrum when there is indeed plenty of vastly unused military spectrum already there (within a 175 MHz span).

Is the only way one will be able to watch OTA programming is 'live' with no ability of recording the program for viewing later? No. I'm not talking about this current 'lazy' way to watch TV by "streaming" on your toy phone, I'm talking about watching it on a real TV without relying on some streaming service (most which are pay) that you can only hope doesn't get interrupted while you are watching.

Of course doing this will only put more strain on the already over-strained Internet as it is.

How many of these Chinese or even American companies will bother designing/producing a actual DVR with a ATSC3 tuner that will be able to time shift any and all of the additional services this new system is claiming to offer? Or will we be limited to another "converter box' as there was 10 years ago??

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Recording free OTA TV for 'time shifting' has been here since 1977. Will there be DVR's to do the same when ATSC3 obsoletes existing DVR's??
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post #2 of 37 Old 05-14-2017, 06:14 AM - Thread Starter
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This goes well beyond the FCC "repack" as is stated here;

AVS Official Topic: The FCC and Television Spectrum Repack

Playing 'musical channels' is one thing, but changing standards is another!

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Recording free OTA TV for 'time shifting' has been here since 1977. Will there be DVR's to do the same when ATSC3 obsoletes existing DVR's??
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post #3 of 37 Old 05-14-2017, 07:43 AM
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I'm not worried about it at all, because I figure it'll take a minimum of 10 YEARS before ATSC1 broadcasts completely stop, and there'll be dual ATSC1/ATSC3 tuners before that. 10 years is longer than most new tv equipment will last on average anyway.
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post #4 of 37 Old 05-14-2017, 07:52 AM - Thread Starter
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And you base that on what? There is a time limit here and it surely isn't 10 years;

Quote:
We also now know for certain the Phase Transition dates for the repack, which are:
Transition Phase 1: Testing Begins: 9/14/2018 Phase Ends: 11/30/2018
Transition Phase 2: Testing Begins: 12/1/2018 Phase Ends: 4/12/2019
Transition Phase 3: Testing Begins: 4/13/2019 Phase Ends: 6/21/2019
Transition Phase 4: Testing Begins: 6/22/2019 Phase Ends: 8/2/2019
Transition Phase 5: Testing Begins: 8/3/2019 Phase Ends: 9/6/2019
Transition Phase 6: Testing Begins: 9/7/2019 Phase Ends: 10/18/2019
Transition Phase 7: Testing Begins: 10/19/2019 Phase Ends: 1/17/2020
Transition Phase 8: Testing Begins: 1/18/2020 Phase Ends: 3/13/2020
Transition Phase 9: Testing Begins: 3/14/2020 Phase Ends: 5/1/2020
Transition Phase 10: Testing Begins: 5/2/2020 Phase Ends: 7/3/2020

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Recording free OTA TV for 'time shifting' has been here since 1977. Will there be DVR's to do the same when ATSC3 obsoletes existing DVR's??

Last edited by videobruce; 05-14-2017 at 09:13 AM. Reason: added transistion
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post #5 of 37 Old 05-14-2017, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by videobruce View Post
And you base that on what? There is a time limit here and it surely isn't 10 years.
What time limit are you talking about?

There is NO time limit to put ATSC 3.0 in place. There is only a time limit for stations to move to new frequencies with the present ATSC 1.0 etc due to the spectrum auction. The spectrum auction has NOTHING directly to do with ATSC 3.0 being implemented.
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post #6 of 37 Old 05-14-2017, 09:13 AM - Thread Starter
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There is NO time limit to put ATSC 3.0 in place.
Reference??

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post #7 of 37 Old 05-14-2017, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by videobruce View Post
Reference??
I repeat, there is NO mandate at present that makes broadcasters implement ATSC 3.0. A ATSC 3.0 Mandate is NOT part of the new spectrum rules. They can voluntarily adopt it, but they don't have to by law. It may happen sooner, but it's not likely to be ATSC 3.0 ONLY short of many years from now.

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/new...rollout/163020

Quote:
According to the official, the NPRM authorizes the voluntary use of ATSC 3.0 while requiring stations to continue to deliver an ATSC 1.0 version of their signals. It also proposes to require MVPDs to continue to carry the ATSC 1.0 signal but does not require them to carry ATSC 3.0 during the transition to a new standard. It asks questions about how the retrans consent regime might look and about interference protections.
The proposal does not include "at this time," an ATSC 3.0 tuner mandate for consumer electronics companies, but seeks comment on that tentative conclusion, according to the item, which was released Thursday morning as part of a pilot project to let the public see items the FCC plans to vote on--the ATSC 3.0 item will be on the February meeting agenda.
Broadcasters promised to simulcast their signals during such rollouts given that the standard is not compatible with current TV sets.
http://www.broadcastingcable.com/new...roposal/163556

Quote:
The FCC voted unanimously Thursday to approve a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking to allow broadcasters to roll out the ATSC 3.0 transmission standard on a voluntary, market-driven basis.
Quote:
MVPDs must continue to carry ATSC signals but not the new 3.0 signals. It seeks comment on the conclusion that a tuner mandate is not yet needed for TV receivers.
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post #8 of 37 Old 05-14-2017, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the above. Time will tell, but it surely won't be ten years, even in the smaller markets.

Advancements are one thing, obsolescence is another. NTSC was long overdue for replacement, ATSC is not, especially when it is to pad the pockets of the wireless industry when there is plenty of unused and/or underused spectrum available.

Give them a inch and they will take a mile.

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Recording free OTA TV for 'time shifting' has been here since 1977. Will there be DVR's to do the same when ATSC3 obsoletes existing DVR's??

Last edited by videobruce; 05-14-2017 at 10:05 AM.
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post #9 of 37 Old 05-14-2017, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by videobruce View Post
Give them a inch and they will take a mile.
THAT we can both agree on!

The robber-barons didn't really die off, they are still busy pillaging all they can from anywhere they can.
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post #10 of 37 Old 05-14-2017, 10:18 AM - Thread Starter
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It's called deregulation.

My point was/is, the broadcasters (stations) aren't going thru all that expense only to move their channel from one to another, then wind up with basically the same thing. When you remodel your kitchen, it's usually the whole thing.

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post #11 of 37 Old 05-14-2017, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Primestar31 View Post
The robber-barons didn't really die off.
Yes, they did. Their kids are at it now.
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post #12 of 37 Old 05-14-2017, 11:38 AM - Thread Starter
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From those articles that Primestar31 provided links to, I found some 'interesting' reading.

Quote:
Enhanced personalization and interactivity will enable better audience measurement, which in turn will make for higher-quality advertising—ads relevant to you and that you actually might want to see.
Well, I'm sold!

Quote:
The proposal does not include "at this time," an ATSC 3.0 tuner mandate for consumer electronics companies, but seeks comment on that tentative conclusion,
Quote:
Broadcasters promised to simulcast their signals during such rollouts given that the standard is not compatible with current TV sets.
As long as they "promise".

Quote:
We're not asking the federal government to underwrite a federal converter box program.
What no coupons??

Quote:
We're not asking for more spectrum.
Did I miss something here, they just gave up a ton of spectrum.

Quote:
Broadcasters had initially wanted an FCC decision on ATSC 3.0 by October, then the end of the year when that didn't happen—former FCC chairman Tom Wheeler declined to set a timetable for action. They have since called for final rules on the launch by the end of 2017.
Quote:
The FCC did not take ATSC 3.0 into account when planning the repack, but outgoing Media Bureau chief Bill Lake has suggested that the two could, indeed, dovetail.
Both of those tell me many of them want to move forward with this.

Quote:
He said he wanted to minimize disruption on consumers, which is why the FCC was allowing for one station to broadcast the ATSC signal of a station who is transmitting its programming in ATSC 3.0.
Awfully nice of them, not that any of this would be a "interruption".

Quote:
it marks the beginning of broadcasters' move to a standard that supports interactivity, 4K resolution, and data services that will boost their profile in the digital age.
I think they meant "profit" not profile.

And my favorite quote:
Quote:
he hoped a final order would be ready by Halloween.
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post #13 of 37 Old 05-14-2017, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ncsercs View Post
Yes, they did. Their kids are at it now.
"A difference which makes no difference, is no difference at all".

The rot, goes DEEP.
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post #14 of 37 Old 05-14-2017, 11:54 AM - Thread Starter
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And more importantly all the way to the top.

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post #15 of 37 Old 05-14-2017, 09:57 PM
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These ATSC revisions have but one objective:

Create a subscription CableTV system in the sky



( using free public spectrum )

ST
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post #16 of 37 Old 05-14-2017, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by videobruce View Post
It's called deregulation.

My point was/is, the broadcasters (stations) aren't going thru all that expense only to move their channel from one to another, then wind up with basically the same thing. When you remodel your kitchen, it's usually the whole thing.
There is very little expense involved in changing their transmitter frequency compared to implementing the new standard and the resulting new equipment required. Another incentive for broadcasters to delay is the increased bandwidth required to transmit 4k. They will have to drop some sub-channels. That means advertising revenue lost, not to mention a segment of viewers. Don't look for the new standard to be adopted in the near future. Some smaller stations are still paying down their investment in HD.
I have 2 TiVo Premier XL with OTA as well as cable tuning. I'm not the least bit concerned.
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post #17 of 37 Old 05-15-2017, 04:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
There is very little expense involved in changing their transmitter frequency
True, but have about the cavity filters & associated 'plumbing' and especially the Antenna itself? Especially if it is a drastic change, more than a few channels?
Quote:
Another incentive for broadcasters to delay is the increased bandwidth required to transmit 4k. They will have to drop some sub-channels.
I thought (read) that the whole deal with ATSC 3 was it's increased capacity for data (compression)?? More room for more services in the same 6MHz haystack.
Quote:
Don't look for the new standard to be adopted in the near future.
How about the broadcasters that are worried about competition from all these so called "4k" services, what I call 2160p which is exactly what it should be labeled instead of another marketing term which has now been changed again to Ultra HD (I believe)..

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post #18 of 37 Old 05-15-2017, 05:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swSteve View Post
These ATSC revisions have but one objective:

Create a subscription CableTV system in the sky

( using free public spectrum )

ST
DING DING DING DING DING!
We have a winner here!
My fear from the first day I read about all of the 'advantages' of ATSC 3.0.
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post #19 of 37 Old 05-15-2017, 05:58 AM - Thread Starter
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So much for the "free public spectrum".

Deregulation at work again. Corporations=1, the viewing public=0
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post #20 of 37 Old 05-16-2017, 11:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by videobruce View Post
True, but have about the cavity filters & associated 'plumbing' and especially the Antenna itself? Especially if it is a drastic change, more than a few channels? I thought (read) that the whole deal with ATSC 3 was it's increased capacity for data (compression)?? More room for more services in the same 6MHz haystack. How about the broadcasters that are worried about competition from all these so called "4k" services, what I call 2160p which is exactly what it should be labeled instead of another marketing term which has now been changed again to Ultra HD (I believe)..
You raise valid issues but, as I understand it, not all will have to change frequency/channel. The compression will allow more services, not necessarily sub channels as we now think of them. If broadcasters have a "main" 4K channel, I don't think they will be worried about competition from streaming services as most of us are going to continue watching quality network shows. We will just have to see how all of this plays out. I won't pay for OTA, I'll just get the big networks from cable or sat, which we all pay for now.
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post #21 of 37 Old 05-17-2017, 04:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
not all will have to change frequency/channel.
The remaining 'RF' frequencies will remain the same and yes many would be changing the physical channel. BUT, when ATSC 3 wipes out ATSC 1, throw out all of your DVR's since they won't work. Replacing the tuner inside a TV probably won't be a big deal (or costly), but that isn't the issue.

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post #22 of 37 Old 05-17-2017, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by videobruce View Post
The remaining 'RF' frequencies will remain the same and yes many would be changing the physical channel. BUT, when ATSC 3 wipes out ATSC 1, throw out all of your DVR's since they won't work. Replacing the tuner inside a TV probably won't be a big deal (or costly), but that isn't the issue. Recording free OTA TV for 'time shifting' has been here since 1977. Will there be DVR's to do the same when ATSC3 obsoletes existing DVR's??
What, you think TiVo is going out of business? Not likely. DVR's also do a lot more now than just time shift, PPV, streaming, etc.
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post #23 of 37 Old 05-18-2017, 04:16 AM
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If TiVo had to rely on OTA users alone, they would already be out of business. The bulk of their users are from deals with cable companies - which would not be affected by ATSC 3.0. TiVo's real future threat is the looming death of cablecards. Once Comcast completes its switch to all-IP, others will follow.
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post #24 of 37 Old 05-18-2017, 04:39 AM - Thread Starter
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With everyones favorite Rovi buying them, I thought they kinda were.

There would be more OTA users if Americans were more informed and weren't so damn lazy wanted everything done by some stupid "app" on their toy phone.
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post #25 of 37 Old 05-20-2017, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by videobruce View Post
Advancements are one thing, obsolescence is another. NTSC was long overdue for replacement, ATSC is not, especially when it is to pad the pockets of the wireless industry when there is plenty of unused and/or underused spectrum available.
Certainly watching the US from this side of the pond, ATSC 1.0 looks very obsolete and ripe for replacement. The combination of a mid-90s compression codec and a mid-90s modulation system leaves ATSC 1.0 looking pretty wasteful of bandwidth and not really that great in quality terms now we're in the mid-10s (It's 20 year old tech).

Other countries outside of North America have already started migrating their first-generation digital systems (in some cases they were SD 16:9 not HD I admit) to second or third gen codecs and/or modulation schemes. The UK, Sweden, Germany, Finland, France, Denmark (and Korea?) are all migrating from first gen modulation (DVB-T/ATSC 1.0) to second/third gen modulation (DVB-T2/ATSC 3.0) and/or migrating from MPEG2 to H264 or H265 codecs. Australia, Japan, Canada, Korea and the US are the only countries that ever really tried HD using MPEG2 and first gen modulation. Everyone else waited for second gen compression and/or modulation (and some waited for third gen stuff)

In the UK we switched one mux from 18Mbs 8MHz 16QAM 2k carrier DVB-T (carrying MPEG2 SD) to 40.25Mbs 8MHz 256QAM 32k carrier DVB-T2 carrying H264 in 2012. This has allowed the UK to carry BBC One HD, BBC Two HD, CBBC HD, ITV HD, C4 HD, C5 HD channels all in 1080/50i in a single multiplex/8MHz RF channel. DVB-T2 tuner support was mandated on larger-sized TV for a year or two now, and I think it is now mandatory on all 'HDTV licensed' TVs sold here now. (PVRs with DVB-T2 support are also widespread)

Germany is migrating similar DVB-T muxes to DVB-T2 but with H265 1080/50p (yep - 1080p!) coding.

I've seen US ATSC 1.0 MPEG2 video quality when I've been on holiday in the US, and that's been pretty lousy when showing complex motion on 1080i stations with sub-channnels... The level of MPEG2 artefacting was pretty terrible. I'd be really annoyed if that were my only source of TV.
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post #26 of 37 Old 05-21-2017, 06:04 AM - Thread Starter
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I get all of that, but ATSC 3 should of been at least backwards compatible. OTA in Europe is a fraction of what it is here. Heck, don't most TV's have satellite tuners included??

Amazing, there is such a push for this 'high tech', but there is pathetically little for passenger rail like there is in Europe.

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post #27 of 37 Old 05-21-2017, 12:51 PM
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I'm not sure digital terrestrial is a fraction over there. The last numbers I saw (2 years ago, I think) still had it as the most popular in terms of usage. I remember reading at the time about the digital transition in Europe and how there were a lot of people looking to cash in by creating pay TV services at the time - only to see most of them fail and close up shop because Europe isn't as pay-TV aligned as we are here.
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post #28 of 37 Old 05-21-2017, 01:55 PM
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But don't forget, satellite TV in Europe isn't all pay TV like here. There are many free satellite services in Europe most?? with a nice free guide, much better than the PSIP we have in N. America.
As mentioned, most?? TVs and DVRs in Europe come with a Freeview tuner to directly tune the satellites. Sample Freeview device:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Panasonic-D...c+dvd+recorder
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post #29 of 37 Old 05-21-2017, 02:30 PM
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I think we're confusing Freeview and Freesat. As far as I know, Freeview is still received via aerial - while Freesat is free-to-air satellite.
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post #30 of 37 Old 05-24-2017, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by videobruce View Post
I get all of that, but ATSC 3 should of been at least backwards compatible.
It's not really feasible to make backwards compatible modulation and codecs for OTA DTT if you have limited bandwith - it's not really an option.

Quote:
OTA in Europe is a fraction of what it is here. Heck, don't most TV's have satellite tuners included??
No idea where you get the OTA idea from. Yes - some TVs have integrated satellite tuners but they also have integrated DVB-T2 tuners too (universally in the UK pretty much). Our Sony TV has 1 DVB-T/T2/C combo tuner and 2xDVB-S2. However in the UK the S2 tuner isn't that useful as the TV isn't Freesat licensed so you don't get a decent EPG. It's standard to be able to plug in a USB hard drive to your TV and use it as a PVR.

The DVB-S2 satellite tuners are there because in many countries there are Free-to-air (aka FTA) satellite services (Germany, the UK for instance) or there are encrypted, non-pay services (only encrypted to restrict viewing to specific countries) which you can receive using a slot-in CAM (Conditional Access Module - a bit like a US Cable Card) which all European TVs must have a slot for (to allow encryption on terrestrial, cable and satellite without mandating a set-top box) It's one of the benefits of DVB being a family of standards for OTA, cable and satellite.

In the UK in 2013 these were the figures for OTA Freeview vs Pay-TV Virgin Media Cable vs Pay-TV Sky Satellite vs FTA Freesat : https://ukfree.tv/article/1107052089...ble_homes_are_

25.1m households. 19.2m received Freeview OTA, 9.4m received Sky Pay satellite, 3.3m received cable, 2.1m received Freesat free satellite. Obviously this adds up to more than 25.1m as many homes have more than one source. We have Freeview OTA and Sky pay Satellite on our main TV, and Freeview OTA on secondary TVs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by eherberg View Post
I'm not sure digital terrestrial is a fraction over there. The last numbers I saw (2 years ago, I think) still had it as the most popular in terms of usage. I remember reading at the time about the digital transition in Europe and how there were a lot of people looking to cash in by creating pay TV services at the time - only to see most of them fail and close up shop because Europe isn't as pay-TV aligned as we are here.
Varies country by country. OTA is big in the UK, and pretty popular in places like France. However in Germany free sate satellite is popular. In Benelux cable is bigger.

You're right about pay-TV though. In the UK OTA Pay-TV was catastrophic - however in many other countries there are more Pay than Free channels on OTA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjeff View Post
But don't forget, satellite TV in Europe isn't all pay TV like here. There are many free satellite services in Europe most?? with a nice free guide, much better than the PSIP we have in N. America.
As mentioned, most?? TVs and DVRs in Europe come with a Freeview tuner to directly tune the satellites. Sample Freeview device:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Panasonic-D...c+dvd+recorder
Quote:
Originally Posted by eherberg View Post
I think we're confusing Freeview and Freesat. As far as I know, Freeview is still received via aerial - while Freesat is free-to-air satellite.
Freeview = OTA DVB-T
Freeview HD = OTA DVB-T2
Freeview + / Freeview HD + = PVR
(all the above via an aerial/antenna)

Freesat = free-to-air satellite DVB-S
Freesat HD = free-to-air satellite DVB-S2
Freesat + / Freesat HD + = PVR
(all the above via a satellite dish or distributed satellite feed)

Freeview has an open, standard DVB EPG. Freeview HD and Freesat / Freesat HD EPGs are proprietary and licensed. These days every TV sold here is Freeview HD, and some also have Freesat HD tuners. (However some manufacturers only license their TVs for Freeview and don't bother licensing for Freesat, as that requires two licensing fees. Other territories the TV is sold in in Europe will not require licensing for a DVB-S/S2 or DVB-T/T2 EPG to work - so it's a decision taken across Europe. These days the same identical models of TV are sold across the whole continent - with mains plug adaptors or different IEC cables fitted to cope with mains plug differences - so compatibility with the multiple local variations of DVB implementations is required. (Different countries use different options in the DVB spec for things like subtitles, audio codec, video codec, EPG, digital text services, online streaming - as DVB includes integrated IPTV functionality, MHEG 5 vs MHP vs HbbTV vs World Systems Teletext etc.)
videobruce and salehdidit like this.

Last edited by sneals2000; 05-25-2017 at 01:24 AM.
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