Nextcom R5000-HD (For Satellite and OTA HD Recording) - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 1609 Old 07-08-2004, 07:59 AM
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Yes, it is off topic. But just to answer your specific questions, a 2 hour movie typically takes between 6-8 hours to encode, depending on your processor speed. I'm using a P4 with a 3.2ghz processor, though you really don't need that fast of a processor.

For more information see this http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...t=Wm9+encoding

and this http://www.patjames.com/hdtvtowmv.htm

Both Kirby and I are using essentially the Pat James method.

Ron
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post #362 of 1609 Old 07-08-2004, 01:23 PM - Thread Starter
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R5000-HD WEBSITE NOW ON-LINE

For official product information and support for the R5000-HD, please go to: http://www.r5000-hd.com

Please enter your information there if you would like to be placed on the pre-order/wait list for the R5000. Thank you.

-R
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post #363 of 1609 Old 07-08-2004, 02:40 PM
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R -

I think one of the most intriguing possibilities the R5000-HD opens up is the possibility of whole-house HD PVR functionality complete with archiving capability. (I realize some have done this with tuner cards, but they are limited to OTA). I envision an XP server running the R5000-HD software, 2 or 3 Dish or Bell STBs (since all channels could be recorded, including SD and OTA), a few terabytes of disk space on a file server (probably Linux) and Roku boxes all around the house for playback. So, here are the questions this brings to mind:

- Does the R5000-HD application now (or can you forsee that it would in the future) support multiple STBs simultaneously? (Using a single copy of the application which would be multi-STB aware when it comes to timer conflicts and the like.)

- If a single instance of the R5000-HD software would not be able to handle more than one STB, is it possible to run multiple copies of the application simultaneously on a single computer?

- Have you given any thought to an HTML/XML interface to allow timer & file management as well as the entire process of Zap2It PVR scheduling to all be carried out in a browser (and therefore remotely)?

Peter
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post #364 of 1609 Old 07-08-2004, 07:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


Originally posted by peterd
R -

I think one of the most intriguing possibilities the R5000-HD opens up is the possibility of whole-house HD PVR functionality complete with archiving capability. (I realize some have done this with tuner cards, but they are limited to OTA). I envision an XP server running the R5000-HD software, 2 or 3 Dish or Bell STBs (since all channels could be recorded, including SD and OTA), a few terabytes of disk space on a file server (probably Linux) and Roku boxes all around the house for playback. So, here are the questions this brings to mind:

- Does the R5000-HD application now (or can you forsee that it would in the future) support multiple STBs simultaneously? (Using a single copy of the application which would be multi-STB aware when it comes to timer conflicts and the like.)

- If a single instance of the R5000-HD software would not be able to handle more than one STB, is it possible to run multiple copies of the application simultaneously on a single computer?

Definitely possible (not with present sw) and I do forsee it happening. It would NOT be possible to run multiple copies and accomplish this in the mean time. The app is designed not to execute multiple instances and even if you could, it probably wouldn't do the right thing. At this time it is 1 STB to 1 PC. (BTW, ONLY a sw upgrade would be necessary).

Quote:



- Have you given any thought to an HTML/XML interface to allow timer & file management as well as the entire process of Zap2It PVR scheduling to all be carried out in a browser (and therefore remotely)?

I have, and I think it would be kind of cool. However, most folks out there have suggested interfacing the R5000 with some of the nice HTPC apps out there. Both will probably end up happening, but which one gets priority will depend on the demand. Thanks.

-R
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post #365 of 1609 Old 07-08-2004, 10:03 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by peterd
R -

I think one of the most intriguing possibilities the R5000-HD opens up is the possibility of whole-house HD PVR functionality [...]
- Have you given any thought to an HTML/XML interface [...] ?

Quote:


Originally posted by R5000-HD
[...] I have, and I think it would be kind of cool. However, most folks out there have suggested interfacing the R5000 with some of the nice HTPC apps out there. Both will probably end up happening, but which one gets priority will depend on the demand. Thanks.

-R

May I suggest surfacing (and documenting) object automation interfaces (I'd date myself if I referred to them as OLE automation interfaces, but I haven't kept up with the latest (.NET) MS-renaming of them ). With that as a first step, folks could get started adding value in whichever direction they wanted...

On a different topic, do you favor any particular DirecTV STB brand (from among the list of supported boxes)?

Peter
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post #366 of 1609 Old 07-09-2004, 09:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


Originally posted by peterd
May I suggest surfacing (and documenting) object automation interfaces (I'd date myself if I referred to them as OLE automation interfaces, but I haven't kept up with the latest (.NET) MS-renaming of them ). With that as a first step, folks could get started adding value in whichever direction they wanted...

On a different topic, do you favor any particular DirecTV STB brand (from among the list of supported boxes)?

From our standpoint there is no preferred STB brand -they all will give equally good results with the R5000. We recommend you research equipment reports elsewhere on the forum to see what quality issues people have had with a particular brand. I can only speak to my limited experience and I think the RCA DTC100 is a decent box. I have heard that some other brand models run hot and have failures associated with that, but I have no personal experience to relate...

-R
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post #367 of 1609 Old 07-09-2004, 01:12 PM
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I am very confused on why people are so excited about this product especially at a $1000 cost. If someone could figure out on how to transfer and convert recorded files from a Hughes HD-TIVO to a PC it would blow away anything that can be done with this product. They have done this with standard TIVOs, so I figure with all the people buying HD-TIVOs it is just a matter of time.
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post #368 of 1609 Old 07-09-2004, 01:36 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by mhfnet
I am very confused on why people are so excited about this product especially at a $1000 cost. If someone could figure out on how to transfer and convert recorded files from a Hughes HD-TIVO to a PC it would blow away anything that can be done with this product. They have done this with standard TIVOs, so I figure with all the people buying HD-TIVOs it is just a matter of time.

mhfnet


- Modifying an HD Tivo, which has DVI-HDCP, 5C and encryption protection as well, would be a clear violation of the DMCA, which is not true with the R5000-HD mod. of the STB's planned.

- efforts to extract the HD-Tivo files would likely be incompatible with standard TS and VOB playback devices which would cause audio dropouts, loss of A/V sync, and, video glitches.

- modifying a brand new $1,000 in warranty HD-Tivo by soldering in circuitry is not wise IMO.

Murray Kerdman
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post #369 of 1609 Old 07-09-2004, 01:40 PM
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you can do extract the files, it was talked about earlier in this thread.

I don't know how to do it I just know tivo doesn't want anyone talking about it.

edit-If your HD tivo dies you are out a grand.
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post #370 of 1609 Old 07-09-2004, 05:02 PM
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A solution that produces files that do not require any further processing gets my vote.
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post #371 of 1609 Old 07-09-2004, 05:05 PM
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Hooked--

Votes are OK, but what about your thousand bucks?
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post #372 of 1609 Old 07-09-2004, 07:52 PM
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Murray,
Just curious but why would you think modifying one DirecTV STB to interface with a PC to record transport streams would any more legal or illegal than another? So long as you aren't accessing files on the hard drive, why would you say modifying an HD DirecTivo with an R5000 mod violated the DCMA whereas doing the same to a DTC-100 does not? Both action have the same intent and result. FWIW, I have no objection to the R5000 mod and in fact will possibly get one.

Rick
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post #373 of 1609 Old 07-09-2004, 08:15 PM
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Quote:


A solution that produces files that do not require any further processing gets my vote.


For those who want a simple and reliable system that works with repeated results I think those who purchase the 5000 will be very happy. I cant wait for others to get this system and share their experiences.

One thing no one is mentioning about the hacked tivo, I talked to one of the guys on the other forum who performs the mod and he said playback is not 100%
Sometimes it works and sometimes it does not and it can hang up your system. If im not mistaking you need a third party app as well.

Not to offend anyone but Ive been playing with stuff that doesn't work for the last 2 years and I got sick of it. Finally I have something that works. Im done with all this stuff that requires you to remux, convert to WM9, make sure this box is not to close to this box, make sure you are using ferret chokes ect just to play back a movie.

The guys gripping about the cost of the 5000 who have Tivos, you say your very happy with your Tivo and your not interested in archiving a large library so why do you even bother chiming in in this thread.
I wonder after some of the feedback hits from other users, could there be some converters in the wings
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post #374 of 1609 Old 07-09-2004, 08:41 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Alan Gouger
The guys gripping about the cost of the 5000 who have Tivos, you say your very happy with your Tivo and your not interested in archiving a large library so why do you even bother chiming in in this thread.
I wonder after some of the feedback hits from other users, could there be some converters in the wings

Actually there's a whole 'nother group of us who are planning on investing in BOTH systems for the ultimate in HD recording flexibility. I've had my HR10-250 for several days now and absolutely love it (even with its minor software glitch issues) and am eagerly anticipating participating in the R5000-HD early adopter program so that I can archive stuff I want to keep on tape just as I did for 2 years with the Dish 5000 system. It's all about choices and I'm certainly glad we now have options in the market place that we did not have back in February when Dish Network basically told all of us to shove it.

HDTV Early Adopter
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post #375 of 1609 Old 07-09-2004, 09:01 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Alan Gouger

One thing no one is mentioning about the hacked tivo, I talked to one of the guys on the other forum who performs the mod and he said playback is not 100%
Sometimes it works and sometimes it does not and it can hang up your system. If im not mistaking you need a third party app as well.

The HD-Tivos have been available for what, 2-3 months? They've already figured out how to extract the video and how to play them back, albeit not perfectly yet. It will be interesting to see how much progress they can make over then next couple of months or so. But it may never be as easy or reliable as this 5000 system. The good news is that competition in the HD recording area should produce good equipment for us consumers!

Brett

I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.
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post #376 of 1609 Old 07-09-2004, 09:33 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by RTK
Murray,
Just curious but why would you think modifying one DirecTV STB to interface with a PC to record transport streams would any more legal or illegal than another? So long as you aren't accessing files on the hard drive, why would you say modifying an HD DirecTivo with an R5000 mod violated the DCMA whereas doing the same to a DTC-100 does not? Both action have the same intent and result. FWIW, I have no objection to the R5000 mod and in fact will possibly get one.

Rick

There is a large legal difference between the two in that an HD-Tivo is a recording device which contains multiple forms of copy protection and encrypption as well as a hard disk specifically intended to only provide for enclosed system copy proteted & encrypted recording, and, by modifying it to output unencrypted copy protection-free files to a PC is the very definition of the circumvention defined as a violation in the DCMA.

A DTC100 has no copy protection, no encryption and no means to record which are being circumvented by the 169Time or R5000 modifications.

Murray Kerdman
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post #377 of 1609 Old 07-09-2004, 11:33 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by mkerdman
There is a large legal difference between the two in that an HD-Tivo is a recording device which contains multiple forms of copy protection and encrypption as well as a hard disk specifically intended to only provide for enclosed system copy proteted & encrypted recording, and, by modifying it to output unencrypted copy protection-free files to a PC is the very definition of the circumvention defined as a violation in the DCMA.

A DTC100 has no copy protection, no encryption and no means to record which are being circumvented by the 169Time or R5000 modifications.

Are you making these comments as someone with a legal background or just based on your personal interpretation of the DCMA?

I understand your comments with regards to modifying the encrypted files on the hard drive or the DVI-HDCP protected output but do you really believe that modifying a STB (not designed to allow you to record copyrighted material) so that it can now output raw TS to a PC could not be interpreted to be in violoation of the DMCA?

Rick
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post #378 of 1609 Old 07-09-2004, 11:35 PM
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I appreciate your point, and I know it's why R5000 is doing what it's doing. But when you get down to it, it's really all just legal semantics. A person could argue that the DTC100's lack of a compressed digital output is itself a form of copy protection.
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post #379 of 1609 Old 07-10-2004, 12:50 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by balazer
...it's really all just legal semantics. A person could argue that the DTC100's lack of a compressed digital output is itself a form of copy protection.

I think your argument would be considered weak, given that the analog output enforces no copy protection, e.g. macrovision.

TW
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post #380 of 1609 Old 07-10-2004, 01:03 AM
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I am not a lawyer, and, the opinions I express here are my own and not based on specific passages of the DCMA.

If the MPAA and the content copyright holders were of a mind to, they could have initiated litigation against Dish for the Model 5000-HD Modulator, or, 169Time for its STB FireWire modification seeking to have those products removed from the market simply because they record HD "in the clear".

These products have merely been tolerated.

However, an HD-Tivo differs significantly from a simple STB with analog-only outputs (Dish 6000, RCA DTC100, or, equivalent) in that modifying it is a blatant attempt to circumvent a specific digitally protected output device which by its design contains a hard disk specifically intended to provide the consumer with an enclosed recording system which is copy protected & encrypted.

I believe that out of an abundance of caution, Nextcom intelligently intends to avoid modifying DVI-HDCP enabled STB's to lessen any DCMA exposure they might have in marketing the R5000-HD.

It is that same sort of thinking on which I base my opinion that commercially modifying an HD-Tivo to deliver unencrypted recordings would not be tolerated by the MPAA and the HD content copyright holders.

Additionally, to protect their relationships and the flow of HD copyrighted content, I think both DirecTV and Tivo would join such litigation as co-plaintiffs raising the potential damages, and, making any defense almost economically impossible.

Murray Kerdman
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post #381 of 1609 Old 07-10-2004, 08:32 AM
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This is quickly going off topic, but... I quickly glanced over the DMCA and
"By contrast, since the fair use doctrine is not a defense to the act of gaining unauthorized access to a work, the act of circumventing a technological measure in order to gain access is prohibited." I guess this means D* or BEV could file suit alleging that even though fair use allows one to record these programs, it only allows one to do it via the available outputs (composite/ component, etc.) and the fact that these analog outputs were circumvented to gain access to the 'perfect' digital stream (which they did not intend since they didn't put IEEE1394 or USB ports that tapped into this stream in the first place) means this act was violated. I don't know if they would win, but I wouldn't want to be the defendant in that trial. I guess if one was found guilty, after that the copyright holders of everything that was taped could also file suit since the copyrighted material was recorded illegally. Scary.
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post #382 of 1609 Old 07-10-2004, 08:37 AM
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No, that's not what "unauthorized access" is. "Access" is getting to the work at all, i.e. just to watch it, via your subscription. Access control and copy protection are separate.
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post #383 of 1609 Old 07-10-2004, 08:44 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by mkerdman
If the MPAA and the content copyright holders were of a mind to, they could have initiated litigation against Dish for the Model 5000-HD Modulator, or, 169Time for its STB FireWire modification seeking to have those products removed from the market simply because they record HD "in the clear".

These products have merely been tolerated.

The MPAA or copyright holders could have brought litigation against DISH for the Model 5000 & modulator ONLY if some contract between the content provider (e.g. HBO) and DISH specifically forbade such an in-the-clear digital HD output. Otherwise there is nothing that the MPAA or copyright holders could do, except to put some pressure on DISH - because there is nothing illegal about DISH selling a satellite receiver that doesn't enforce copy protection.
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post #384 of 1609 Old 07-10-2004, 09:38 AM
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Keep in mind another factor that DirecTV's subscription agreement and the documentation included with most of their HD STB's note that they reserve the right to deliver all but DVI-HDCP outputs at reduced resolutions.

Getting back "on topic" the R5000-HD has none of these issues as the receivers they will offer to modify have no digital outputs, no copy protection and no encryption.

Murray Kerdman
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post #385 of 1609 Old 07-10-2004, 11:44 PM - Thread Starter
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We'll probably add these to the web page, but we've been answering alot of the same questions... So here are the "standard answers":

Quote:


Can the 169time and the R5000-HD be installed in a STB at the same time?

No. Both devices uses similar signals and it is not possible to drive both at the same time.
Quote:


Is it possible to remove the 169time and install the R5000-HD in such a way that the 169time could be re-installed at a later date?

Yes, we put an additional connector on the R5000-HD that exactly matches the pin out of the 169time. So it should be possible to convert a 169time "converted" STB to the R5000-HD. However there may be TBD additional $ to do this, as it exposes Nexcom to additional warranty risk installing our product into a STB that has already been modified.
Quote:


If my receiver were to die, could I send it to Nextcom with the new STB and have the R5000-HD unit removed from my broken STB and put in the new one?

Yes, $100 would cover our cost to remove, re-install, and return ship. Might be less if you let us keep the dead STB.
Quote:


If I was to switch to dishnetwork, could I send the directv box back to you and have the R5000-HD unit installed in the dishnetwork box (or vice versa)?

It would be the same $100 price. We just need to cover our cost... Probably free if you let us keep the old STB
Quote:


I am interested in self-install... I've had 20+ years doing component level electronic repairs, SMT, etc. I have access to SMT rework tools and routinely work with parts as small as 0402 and 10mil pin spacings...

We have no plans to support self install... It's too costly for us. Our technicians are quite competent at doing the installs in a very short amount of time. Supporting one user can easily take twice as long. Additionally, self install usually implies a discount. So you can see that it does not make financial sense to support self installs, Sorry.

-R
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post #386 of 1609 Old 07-11-2004, 12:09 AM
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While some of the points being made about digital rights management may be well taken, I think (and I'd love to hear "R" weigh in) that this is not the reason why these particular STBs have been chosen for the mods.

I believe the technical reasons have been discussed in the 169 time thread (or others). In short, the evolution of most electronic gear tends toward greater and greater integration -- which works againsts the kinds of mods done by Nextcomm, 169 Time and Immersive (who add SDI outputs to DVD players & STBs).

Whether we're talking about the progression from one generation of technology to another (numerous transistors being replaced by a single IC) or the life-cycle of a complex device like a PC (from discreet cards for I/O, disk controller, video, audio, LAN, etc. to everything being built-in to the motherboard) the trend is pervasive.

In many cases, equipment is initially designed using discreet components (since they are available off-the-shelf, and more modularity makes the design easier to debug). Later, once the design has been proven and the bugs worked out, ASICs (Application Specific Integrated Circuits) are developed to replace many of the individual components. Often, when there's a large enough market of equipment manufacturers and appropriate standards exist, 3rd party vendors will develop these ICs. (The most high profile example of this is probably Intel's development of the Centrino WiFi chip for PC manufacturers to incorporate into their motherboards.)

In the case of satellite receivers, the change has been from individual chips which handle the various aspects of signal processing (extraction of the digital datastream from the RF signal, decryption, MPEG decoding, extraction of the audio from the transport stream, video scaling, conversion to a variety of digital and analog outputs) to VLSIs (Very Large Scale Integrated circuits) which combine many of these functions.

In first generation HD satellite receiver designs, the decryption and audio/video processing (e.g. scaling) functions were handled by different chips. This meant that there was a point in the circuit where the transport stream was present "in the clear" (unencrypted) and could be intercepted as it traveled from one chip to another.

The current generation of receivers uses chips which combine these functions. Therefore, there's no place where the transport stream can be seen unencrypted on the circuit board. While concern over security of the signal might have factored into the decision to combine these particular functions into a single chip (thereby preventing interception of the signal), I'd bet the same integration would have happened anyway, and is primarily driven by manufacturing cost reduction...

Peter
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post #387 of 1609 Old 07-11-2004, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mhfnet
I am very confused on why people are so excited about this product especially at a $1000 cost. If someone could figure out on how to transfer and convert recorded files from a Hughes HD-TIVO to a PC it would blow away anything that can be done with this product. They have done this with standard TIVOs, so I figure with all the people buying HD-TIVOs it is just a matter of time.


HD-TIVO only works on D*

Mark
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post #388 of 1609 Old 07-13-2004, 10:08 AM
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HD Tivo is very close to PC playback, Alan posted about it early on in the thread. Pretty much the heavy lifting stages of getting the HD-Tivo to save TY Streams in an unencrypted format has been out for some time. This is not to say it's an easy process (there is a hardware aspect), or all the kinks have been worked out. From what I understand converting TY streams to usable MPEG or TS streams is another matter. But, there are other options, and I'm guessing the costs will be much less than the R-5000HD..

That being said, the R-5000HD has two big advantage, it can't really be turned off and it's not likely that it violates the DMCA. Ever since the Tivo community got into flipping firmware bits they put themselves at the mercy of D* or Tivo releasing a patch to "fix the glitch" so to speak. And certainly DMCA cases could be asserted.

  

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post #389 of 1609 Old 07-13-2004, 04:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


Originally posted by Joe Q

I have been making noises about the HD-TIVO for 3 purposes...

Please, please, please take your "HD-TIVO noises" to another thread. or at least continue them via PM.

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...
2) Hoping to get the R5000 team to add the HD-TIVO to their list of supported devices

There are no plans to ever support HD-TIVO. Just so we're clear Joe, we will not support the R5000-HD on the HD-TVIO (or any other HDCP device)

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So,unless #2 is done, folks like me are not willing to spend another $1000 for an archiving capability for D* when I can have it for around $100 on the HD-TIVO with it's superior capabilities.

Joe

Well, as I said above... We're not doing #2. Additionally, the R5000-Hd is not, as you pointed out, a TIVO, therefore, please move Tivo discussions to the TIVO thread.

-R
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post #390 of 1609 Old 07-16-2004, 06:04 PM
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hijacking, very common on AVS sorry to say, get over it, or quit doing it! Opinions vary............

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