Nextcom R5000-HD (For Satellite and OTA HD Recording) - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 1609 Old 06-10-2004, 10:50 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by mkerdman
Kim

That's been my experience as well with the VHS tapes I have stored in a bedroom closet for more than twenty years.


You have to remember this is all in THEORY. 10 years ago CD's were supposed to last for 50-100 years. Not so today.

Yes, tapes from the 70s are still playable for many of us.

However, in the early 80s, due to EPA Regulations, the lubricant backing on most tapes was changed. Though you would think all would be fine, by 1984 tapes started shedding the lubricant backing and causing massive jamming in cartridges and drop outs on masters stored on reels.

By the early 90s, most of the High End Pro Tapes that were masters were in horrible shape - with the lubricant coating either flaked off or stuck on the wrong side of the tape as it detached from the backing.

As thus, I wouldnt count on tapes today lasting anything like they did prior to the change in backing in the early 80s.

When it's feasible to get them archieved to Hard Drive, I would certainly take that opportunity.

And besides, I believe the real issue isn't will the media work, it's will there be any working machines to play them on? Seen any Quad 8 or consumer betamax machines recently? (Of course, that also brings into question the Hard Drive interface in 15 years - so there are still no guarantees).

And I'm way off topic

I think this solution is great for what it is - a point in time.
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post #182 of 1609 Old 06-11-2004, 05:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by HDHTPC
The big scary thought in all of this is : how long will the DTC100 and Dish6000 last?

Will they go the way of the Dodo-bird and Dish 5000 modulator?

DTC100 is 4PSK only, and D* may someday do a receiver swap to get
everyone going on 8PSK.

E* phased out the Dish5000+Modulator... Someday they may do the same
for the 6000.


Having owned various DISH receivers in the 'early' days,the 5000+mod as well as the 6000 (and the 921 for a short time) , I understand perfectly your concern.



Sorry to go OT but your post triggered a question in my mind because I realized that I don't know jack about the transmission formats that D* uses.


Because I had those various peices of equipment and was with DISH for 6 years, I became 'educated' about the various transmission formats from DISH

I am recently no longer with DISH as I have switched to Directv and have the HR10-250 but don't have a clue what the transmission formats they use are.

Are you saing that all Directv receivers, like my HR10-250 , are all 4psk and may need to be swapped out if Directv goes to another transmision format?
Can you explain WHAT the formats that Directv uses are?


I thought with Directv, I was finally done with all this BS of equipment becoming obsolete in just a few years or having to buy upgrade cards (like on the 6000).

Thanks for any info you can give,
Joe
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post #183 of 1609 Old 06-11-2004, 05:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jsaliga
It makes recordings that are glitchy as hell, and I wouldn't want that for free.

For some people recording from cable is working well. For others, it isn't working very well unless video glitches and audio dropouts every minute or two are your bag. If so then you're golden.


Jerome,

We all know that you are cursed when it comes to recording HD material.

You never had much luck with the model 5000 or Hipix recordings getting to/from your JVC with DVHSTOOL and now I read you are having the same issues with cable.

Someone upstairs has decided that your lot in life is to never be able to get decent HD recordings on tape.

Joe
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post #184 of 1609 Old 06-11-2004, 06:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by HDTVFanAtic
You have to remember this is all in THEORY. 10 years ago CD's were supposed to last for 50-100 years. Not so today.

Yes, tapes from the 70s are still playable for many of us.

However, in the early 80s, due to EPA Regulations, the lubricant backing on most tapes was changed. Though you would think all would be fine, by 1984 tapes started shedding the lubricant backing and causing massive jamming in cartridges and drop outs on masters stored on reels.

By the early 90s, most of the High End Pro Tapes that were masters were in horrible shape - with the lubricant coating either flaked off or stuck on the wrong side of the tape as it detached from the backing.

As thus, I wouldnt count on tapes today lasting anything like they did prior to the change in backing in the early 80s.
And besides, I believe the real issue isn't will the media work, it's will there be any working machines to play them on? Seen any Quad 8 or consumer betamax machines recently? (Of course, that also brings into question the Hard Drive interface in 15 years - so there are still no guarantees).


Very good points, i thought about those--the quality of the tapes tended to be better in those days, AND the equipment not being so readily available anymore (although i think i could find a betamax if i really needed to, and most of my 1989 tapes still play too).

It's just that archiving via hard drives usually isn't as convenient as removable media (tapes or dvds). There's one other thing...hard drives can have the rude characteristic of suddenly dying without warning, which in effect requires duplicate backups to be safe. You stand a better chance of detecting tape deterioration before it's too late...

Within 5 years surely we'll have a HD DVD backup option, and (whether dvds have 10 or 50 year lifespans) such will probably be the media of choice for archiving. Of course since digital backups are 'perfect copies', you don't have the 'generation deterioration' characteristic of analog. Therefore, periodic re-archiving of HD DVDs every 10 years should perpetuate those cherished memories...

'Imagination is more important than knowledge...' --Einstein
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post #185 of 1609 Old 06-11-2004, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Alan Gouger
I use HDTVtoMPEG2 when I need to split up the files. I have tested a movie split into multiple files with the Roku and playback is perfect using Streamplayer.

Alan can you clarify how and why you would split the files?
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post #186 of 1609 Old 06-11-2004, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by splino
Alan can you clarify how and why you would split the files?

Depending on the device you are using it may not support large files. The file system on the Roku won't support files over 2GB.
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post #187 of 1609 Old 06-11-2004, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by HookedOnTV
Depending on the device you are using it may not support large files. The file system on the Roku won't support files over 2GB.

Thanks
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post #188 of 1609 Old 06-11-2004, 04:17 PM
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I think I remember reading that VOOM would use MPEG-4 only for SD.
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post #189 of 1609 Old 06-11-2004, 05:44 PM
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This is all very interesting but spending another $1000 on a modification when I already spent $1000 on an HD-TIVO is not very apealling to me.

The TIVO Linux people developed SW for the TIVO to allow ethernet interfaces to the USB port.
They also developed a progarm called ExtractStream which let one get the video off of the TIVO to be post processed in a PC.

I am waiting for these SW tools to be upgraded for the HD-TIVO.
Then it will cost me nothing to be able to archive to D-VHS.



The HD TIVO has USB 2.0 so I can see SW apearing for the HD-TIVO to allow direct USB to USB on the PC to take advantage of the speed of USB 2.0

Oh yeah, I already have a MYHD,D-VHS and am a regular user of DVHStool so that is NRE to me.
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post #190 of 1609 Old 06-11-2004, 07:00 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Glimmie


I don't know about everyone else but my 6000 to JVC30K does work flawlessly. I have now watched about 20 hours of recorded material with perhaps one or two minor glitches in all which could be the JVC or a tape dropout. Hell my 5000 to Panny did no better than that.

Similar experience here. I installed HDVR into 6K IRD myself, built my own AVX1, and I record pretty much flawlessly directly to XP without the JVC. In fact, I have never used any tapes in my 30000, and although I leave the JVC in the chain, it is always off during restore, and I turn it on only during archive /playback. As far as I am concerned, the 169Time system stands on its own. People should be careful that they 1) don't confuse pixelization, and the resulting secondary glitches that can be caused by playing back the less than robust stream through a JVC deck or a card, and 2) don't confuse issues related to player incompatibility of some *.ts files. Remember, not all *ts are alike, and null packets, along with multiple MPEG threads on varying timelines are all allowed. TS specs are very broad, and allow for more timeline trickery than the newest DVD's. This is why when you try to play back certain *.TS on VLC, for instance, you will get the chow chow chow effect, jumping forwards and backwards in time, with green blank frames. Try to play that flawless TS back through the guts of the JVC, and it plays back fine. Compliance is the name of the game. I have never had the 169Time setup give anything less than perfect results where I have been able to isolate the problem to 169Time, and on the rare occasions where there is a problem, it was traced elsewhere. In FACT, the 169Time system faithfully records glitches, and the resulting pixelization in the stream. WYSIWYG.

When I 1st put together the 169Time system for my friend, I was very frustrated, but experience has taught me that, at least in a 6000, the system is flawless. Not trying to plug for Richard, just telling the facts as I see them.
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post #191 of 1609 Old 06-11-2004, 07:41 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Capybara 320
Similar experience here. I installed HDVR into 6K IRD myself, built my own AVX1, and I record pretty much flawlessly directly to XP without the JVC. In fact, I have never used any tapes in my 30000, and although I leave the JVC in the chain, it is always off during restore, and I turn it on only during archive /playback. As far as I am concerned, the 169Time system stands on its own. People should be careful that they 1) don't confuse pixelization, and the resulting secondary glitches that can be caused by playing back the less than robust stream through a JVC deck or a card, and 2) don't confuse issues related to player incompatibility of some *.ts files. Remember, not all *ts are alike, and null packets, along with multiple MPEG threads on varying timelines are all allowed. TS specs are very broad, and allow for more timeline trickery than the newest DVD's. This is why when you try to play back certain *.TS on VLC, for instance, you will get the chow chow chow effect, jumping forwards and backwards in time, with green blank frames. Try to play that flawless TS back through the guts of the JVC, and it plays back fine. Compliance is the name of the game. I have never had the 169Time setup give anything less than perfect results where I have been able to isolate the problem to 169Time, and on the rare occasions where there is a problem, it was traced elsewhere. In FACT, the 169Time system faithfully records glitches, and the resulting pixelization in the stream. WYSIWYG.

When I 1st put together the 169Time system for my friend, I was very frustrated, but experience has taught me that, at least in a 6000, the system is flawless. Not trying to plug for Richard, just telling the facts as I see them.

Capybara 320

I've had a 169Time DTC100 for a good while and have recently added a 169Time Dish 6000.

I too am able to get flawless glitch-free D-VHS recordings with a JVC 30K, and perfect PC recordings with DVHSTools and CapDVHS.

I can play the D-VHS tapes back flawlessly and glitch-free on either a JVC 30K through its component outputs, or, over FireWire to an LG 3410 and out its DVI outputs to a digital display.

The Dish 6000 is currently somewhat better with the LG 3410, insofar as it plays all HBOHD tapes perfectly and the DTC100 does have some HBOHD (only- other channels are perfect) glitches when played through the 3410.

The DVHSTools and CapDVHS files play back flawlessly through the JVC 30K directly, and if dumped to D-VHS, they are also perfectly playable on the LG 3410.

These are my actual personal experiences and not a plug for anyone.

Murray Kerdman
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post #192 of 1609 Old 06-11-2004, 09:55 PM
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Further 169time discussion belongs in the 169time topic.

'Better Living Through Modern, Expensive, Electronic Devices'

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post #193 of 1609 Old 06-11-2004, 10:46 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Ken H
Further 169time discussion belongs in the 169time topic.

Ken,

Correct you are.

Murray Kerdman
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post #194 of 1609 Old 06-12-2004, 01:11 AM
 
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Quote:


Originally posted by Joe Q
Are you saing that all Directv receivers, like my HR10-250 , are all 4psk and may need to be swapped out if Directv goes to another transmision format?
Can you explain WHAT the formats that Directv uses are?

[/b]

As far as I know, all D* transmissions are still 4PSK.

As far as I know, all E* SD transmissions are 4PSK, and all E* HD transmissions are 8PSK.

Some of the newer D* HD receivers may have 8PSK reception capability built in, but it won't be easy to tell which ones until the day that they broadcast something in 8PSK!

I have no idea what sort of timetable they may have in mind to do such a thing.
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post #195 of 1609 Old 06-12-2004, 11:13 AM
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Not withstanding my doubts about this system and whether it will survive the industry no-no of recording HDTV to a PC that bypasses copy protection, I am curious as to one thing right now- cost


I believe that enough is now known to estimate the total bottom line cost of this system for comparative purposes-

Given- 921 2 sat tuners 1 OTA tuner for 2 recording simultaneously.
Cost- $1000.00 E* only Time shift 25 hours only

Given- HD-TIVO 2 sat tuners, 2 OTA tuners for 2 recordings simultaneously
Cost- $1000.00 D* only Time shift and expandable hard drive capacity

Given- 169Time recording system, 1 recording at a time
Approx street price of $2000 for the system
for 2 recordings simultaneously- $4000
For equivalent of 2 recording plus 1 playback simultaneously: $4500

VOOM- 2 sat tuners, 2 OTA tuners for 2 recordings simultaneously
Cost- $N/A V* only Time shift only HD expansion- unknown

R5000- ?
Alan can you put a realistic $ on a system as I did above for being able to record two HDTV shows and watch a thrid off the drive(s) simultaneously?
I know you would need 2 169Time modified tuners and 3 VCR's to accomplish this with 169Time. Not to mention it would be a klutzey mess to work. Just what would it take minimum for this new system and what would that cost approximation be? We will assume that each system I listed has it's own peculiar benefits that can be said to be remotely related to the basic function of record 2, watch 1.



To date- based on what I have listed above, the HD-TIVO is logically the best investment that promises the most bang for the buck, not only time shifting but also some reasonable method fopr minimum archiving.


For this purpose, please assume we are starting from scratch. That means the cost of the STB and PC and any associated hardware except the dishes and Antenna.

Anyone else can chime in too but I felt Alan is best equipped to accurately state an answer since he has one working.
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post #196 of 1609 Old 06-12-2004, 11:29 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Don Landis
To date- based on what I have listed above, the HD-TIVO is logically the best investment that promises the most bang for the buck, not only time shifting but also some reasonable method fopr minimum archiving.

What's the reasonable method for minimum archiving?
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post #197 of 1609 Old 06-12-2004, 11:39 AM
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Hi Don

I only had a beta unit (all features were not activated)

I have no business relationship or connection with the company. The product will be handled on the forum and threw AVS in the same manor as 169time.

I have personally yet to hear anything as far as any firm pricing. I am not included in the companies business decisions
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post #198 of 1609 Old 06-12-2004, 11:39 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Don Landis
R5000- ?
Alan can you put a realistic $ on a system as I did above for being able to record two HDTV shows and watch a thrid off the drive(s) simultaneously?

Don,

If you can make do with only one satellite tuner - which I think should be do-able, since most of the HD satellite programming repeats frequently - then you would need an R5000 ($1000) + receiver ($600?) + MyHD ($280). If you want to be able to record from two OTA sources simultaneously, throw in a Fusion HDTV ($160) . If you want to be able to play back recordings while recording two OTA programs simultaneously, throw in a Roku ($300), or make sure your PC is up-to-spec for software HDTV playback.

How's that?
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post #199 of 1609 Old 06-12-2004, 11:52 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Don Landis
Not withstanding my doubts about this system and whether it will survive the industry no-no of recording HDTV to a PC that bypasses copy protection...

Isnt this exactly what the 169time is doing as well when I record direct to PC? Is it likely that both the R5000 and 169time are going to be forceably removed from existance?
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post #200 of 1609 Old 06-12-2004, 11:54 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by balazer
receiver ($600?)

Compatible D* receivers for the R5000 can be had for well under $200 from a variety of places. Probably can find some good Hughes variants for closer to $130 if you look hard enough. Mine was $180.
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post #201 of 1609 Old 06-12-2004, 12:06 PM
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169time does not "support" pc recording. Its only supported config
is to a DVHS deck. My opinions

Dave
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post #202 of 1609 Old 06-12-2004, 01:47 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by balazer

then you would need an R5000 ($1000) + receiver ($600?) + MyHD ($280)

You should be able to get the Hughes E86 on eBay for less than $200 - I got mine for $150 delivered and it is mint.

Cheers!
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post #203 of 1609 Old 06-13-2004, 02:50 AM
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"Don,

If you can make do with only one satellite tuner - which I think should be do-able, since most of the HD satellite programming repeats frequently - then you would need an R5000 ($1000) + receiver ($600?) + MyHD ($280). If you want to be able to record from two OTA sources simultaneously, throw in a Fusion HDTV ($160) . If you want to be able to play back recordings while recording two OTA programs simultaneously, throw in a Roku ($300), or make sure your PC is up-to-spec for software HDTV playback.

How's that?"


I'm not an expert on the "system" in discussion but how does one use this system without the stuff I believe you left out? I actually believe I needed to buy a PC of some sort to use this solution. If not then I misunderstood the system totally, or, you have left out one of the most important parts of the system.

In addition, there is no such thing as "If I can live without" in a comparison. I can live without any of the stuff in my home theater but if I want to do what the systems offer for the bare minimum then being able to record two programs while watching a 3rd prerecorded appears to be the defacto standard of the lowest price ($1000) alternatives. All my competitive alternatives offered a recorder in the price.

So to answer your "How's that?" you get an F in this "quiz" on what the system to do the task(2 record/1 playback) will cost.

If this system can't be made to do that then I suppose we can assume that multiple systems (including PC and hard drive) are required as I did with the 169Time comparison.


Alan- We can add the R5000 at $1000 as was stated in this thread. Not asking you to commit to a sale price, just a ball park figure that would allow someone to purchase a turnkey system to do 2 sat/1 playback recording with the R5000 as we can do with an HDTIVO. Also, I don't want to buy a new car and try to drive it off the lot and discover the engine missing and the tires, only to hear the car salesman say, "we thought you would supply your own engine and tires. "

Just searching for the TRUE price of this system. I do suspect that it will be the Rolls Royce of recording solutions with a price tag to match! For most mortals, with wage earner budgets, HDTIVO may be the more practical solution, given it's features and ability to swap out hard drives for archiving. Beyond that, we have a HDTIVO or 921 for time shift PLUS 169Time single channel record for archive to tape combo. The later is what I am using. That makes a real cost at $2000 for 169Time plus $1000 for time shift or $3000 total timeshifting and DVHS record archive.
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post #204 of 1609 Old 06-13-2004, 09:33 AM
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Maybe this has already been answered elsewhere in the thread, but with the R5000 (with MyHD card if needed) is is possible to watch the stream in real time as well (ie SAT HD in a window on the PC), or can you only save out TS/MPG files and view the saved files?
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post #205 of 1609 Old 06-13-2004, 09:53 AM
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Quote:


with the R5000 (with MyHD card if needed) is is possible to watch the stream in real time

James

With the new software for the MYHD card "you can" using the output of the MYHD card. PVR functions , pause, rewind ect ,all in real time.
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post #206 of 1609 Old 06-14-2004, 03:02 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Kirby Baker
Isnt this exactly what the 169time is doing as well when I record direct to PC? Is it likely that both the R5000 and 169time are going to be forceably removed from existance?

My guess is that the R5000 will have as much market penetration as 169time. That equates to not nearly enough units out there for the DBS companies to even investigate shutdown options. And now we have other alternatives, HD TiVo, PVR921 (not everybody cares about 1394 ports), and 1394 equipped cable boxes. So that's even less people for now contemplating off market HDTV recording options.

Face it, there are few people who will invest $1000+ in a gray market modification product. Those who are not technically savy enough to work with it will surely have similar 169time type problems and will condem the R5000 product here.

Just like 169time, at the end of they day, there will be few units sold. Hint, even 1000 units in the consumer electronics market is nothing.

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post #207 of 1609 Old 06-14-2004, 03:23 PM
 
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Quote:


Originally posted by Don Landis

I'm not an expert on the "system" in discussion but how does one use this system without the stuff I believe you left out? I actually believe I needed to buy a PC of some sort to use this solution. If not then I misunderstood the system totally, or, you have left out one of the most important parts of the system.

In addition, there is no such thing as "If I can live without" in a comparison. I can live without any of the stuff in my home theater but if I want to do what the systems offer for the bare minimum then being able to record two programs while watching a 3rd prerecorded appears to be the defacto standard of the lowest price ($1000) alternatives. All my competitive alternatives offered a recorder in the price.

So to answer your "How's that?" you get an F in this "quiz" on what the system to do the task(2 record/1 playback) will cost.

If this system can't be made to do that then I suppose we can assume that multiple systems (including PC and hard drive) are required as I did with the 169Time comparison.


.

Should we quote the price of the Monitor as well? How about the AC3 unit? The Speakers?

You can't put a simple price on it as there are too many variables. Price the PC you want and add it to the $1000. Some may already have the equipment needed. Others might not.

Being on the cutting edge is never cheap. There are always cheaper solutions - though maybe more compromise.
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post #208 of 1609 Old 06-14-2004, 03:27 PM
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So after reading the thread I've come to the conclusion that this is a product for either:

a) People with more dollars than sense
or b) people with a sickness for collecting

What am I missing here?

Are people not willing to wait the extra 6-12 months for the effects of OpenCable to start spilling over?

$1700 is a lot of money to spend for a piece of a kludged system. At the end of the day we're talking about a hack. It might be a professional hack but still ...

Please help me understand

Cheers,
Steve

A musing or too much?
I wonder what that a*^ is thinking today.
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post #209 of 1609 Old 06-14-2004, 03:31 PM
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Being on the cutting edge is never cheap

Should read BLEEDING Edge.

Larry

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post #210 of 1609 Old 06-14-2004, 03:47 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Tivolicious

What am I missing here?Please help me understand

Steve


I have three HD display devices in my house. I want to be able to watch any HD movie/show on any of the displays at anytime. This is one of the main reasons for me on why I archive HD shows to harddrive. I just pop in the drive with the movie to one of my servers, then over my gigabit network, just stream that movie to the HD display via either a PC with MyHD card, or a Roku.

I do have the Hughes HD DirecTivo on one of my HD displays, but even with 2nd 300gb drive I have in there, that's not enough storage for me to keep everything I'd want to watch on hand. I'd also have to put one of the HD-Tivos on each HD display as well.

I like the convenience of being able to choose from a large library of HD shows whenever I have the time to sit back and enjoy a movie.
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