Any news on the upcoming Sony HD camcorder? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 23 Old 06-09-2004, 10:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Sorry if this has been discussed before; I ran a search and couldn't find much on the upcoming consumer HD camcoder from Sony.

Supposedly this will be a JVC killer, and be out sometime in'04
http://www.engadget.com/entry/5103322676698533/
http://www.weblogsinc.com/common/ima...42918683256773

Any info on this would be appreciated.

I have Sony credits from my credit card that I need to to use, and I'm scratching my head thinking of something that Sony makes that I either need, that's best in class, or not overpriced.
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post #2 of 23 Old 06-09-2004, 12:47 PM
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I held off buying a PD170 based on waiting for this.
I can not find any more info either

dave
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post #3 of 23 Old 06-09-2004, 01:02 PM
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I'm impatiently waiting for an affordable (under 4 grand) HD camera that does 24 fps at 720p or better. The day that happens I will be one gloriously happy b@st@rd.

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post #4 of 23 Old 06-09-2004, 03:42 PM
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I heard sometime in 2005, at the last Camera (NAB) show in April Sony was asking for consumer opinions on what we'd like to see in the camera. They showed a shell of what the camera was going to look like.
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post #5 of 23 Old 06-09-2004, 06:46 PM - Thread Starter
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dohh! that means it'll be at least a year to 18 months.
oh well.
The reviews on camcorderinfo.com (Hard core camcorder geeks) were universally negative on the JVC HD unit. maybe the technology is still a little underdeveloped.
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post #6 of 23 Old 06-09-2004, 09:40 PM
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I have the GR-HD1, no dought the JVC has it's shortcomings, but I love it and consider it the best purchase I made this year,.


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ighlight=GRHD1
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post #7 of 23 Old 06-10-2004, 02:37 AM
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last week i had test the jvc.
the camera is a nightmare.

-the worst auto focus that i ever try ed.
-very very bad colors especially in low light.
-judder coming from the only 30 frames/sec.converted to 60 hz by just doubling the frame output rate,
-no manual sound level adjustments.
-and more.......

the only good picture i can get is outside with much light and no motion from the camera.
i am happy to not purchase the jvc and i am sure the sony have a better picture.
i as others hope the the sony comes this year and not like the sony qualia pr. delayed delayed.......................
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post #8 of 23 Old 06-10-2004, 09:57 AM
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I NEVER use the Auto mode on the GR-HD1. I do everything in Manual mode and get great results. There is a learning curve with the camera so "trying it out" for a brief time will not give much of any idea of what it can do. The camera works more like a film camera than a video camera so that is the first hump that users have to get over.

And I too would love a 3-CCD 1080i 24 fps HD camcorder for under $4K. :)
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post #9 of 23 Old 06-10-2004, 12:14 PM
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I agree. No pro-sumer camcorder can touch what the GR-HD1 does.
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post #10 of 23 Old 06-10-2004, 12:18 PM
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But I have the doubters to thank for shunning it, picked one up new in box for $1988.
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post #11 of 23 Old 06-10-2004, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tom Roper
But I have the doubters to thank for shunning it, picked one up new in box for $1988.
I'm glad certain people haven't liked this camera. If everyone loved it, it would be selling at $3,500 or $3,000 at best (over my budget). I got mine off of ebay for $1,800 shipped. I agree, nothing DV I've tried comes close to the GR-HD1.
I admit, when I first got it, I was disappointed. Now I know when to apply an ND, Polarizer, switch to manual focus, what shutter speed to use for what. I'm extremely happy. I agree the OIS isn't this camera's strong point.
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post #12 of 23 Old 06-11-2004, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
And I too would love a 3-CCD 1080i 24 fps HD camcorder for under $4K
At 24 fps you're talking 1080p only I believe. I don't think you'd want to attempt interlacing at that slow a frame rate.

Canon has stopped shipping XL1s cams. What's in the warehouse is it. This portends a new model coming that is supposedly based on HDV as well. Should be interesting to see this battle coming with JVC leading and Sony and Canon entering the fray.
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post #13 of 23 Old 06-11-2004, 02:24 PM
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If the Canon is HDV, it's going to be constrained to the same bit rate limitations of the DV media as the JVC. <--- That's not a bad thing, because it's inexpensive and available. I agree with hmurchison that it likely will record progressive frames, possibly 24 fps, but 1080p is unlikely without a recording media something other than DV tape. And 3 CCD costs more and uses more battery power. It is that reality responsible for nearly 1.5 years after the introduction of the JVC, that Sony, Panasonic, Canon have not stepped up to the plate with a world beating, or even just a competing product. It is fairly certain that the follow-on consumer HD cams will exceed the JVC first generation product, but unlikely they will be able to do it at the JVC price point, now at street prices around $2k, hence the delays. The Sony prototype shown was not a working prototype at the time of its showing.
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post #14 of 23 Old 06-12-2004, 05:10 AM
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The thing a lot of us independent filmmakers are dying for is a 720p camera that does real 24 frames per second. This would give is a very inexpensive way of shooting shorts that can be projected in a cinema without converting frames. 720p is enough resolution to fool the eye into thinking you might have shot on 16mm. Obviously with some color and tweaking in editing.

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post #15 of 23 Old 06-12-2004, 05:37 PM
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I too would kill for 720/24p. I used the DVX100A to shoot my last event solely because of 24p. I just love the look. 720p would have killed.
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post #16 of 23 Old 06-14-2004, 08:55 AM - Thread Starter
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The rumored street price for the upcoming Sony HD cam is around $4000.

So all of us hoping to get a 3 chip HD cam for less than $2000 will be disappointed

It will not be the silver bullet that will kill off the JVC.
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post #17 of 23 Old 06-14-2004, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jwalter
The rumored street price for the upcoming Sony HD cam is around $4000.

So all of us hoping to get a 3 chip HD cam for less than $2000 will be disappointed

It will not be the silver bullet that will kill off the JVC.

It's still hard to get a decent 3 chip DV camera today for $2k. HDV is out of the question right now at that price point.

I know plenty of people who will rush to the Sony provided it's a step up from the current JVC models. I doubt Sony even hits $4k. I say they're targetting $5k for their 3 chip.

I'm most interested in seeing how Panasonic handles this over the next few years. They are conspicuously absent from the HDV hoopla. Perhaps they have plans to meet this market with a flavor of low cost DVCPRO HD. That would be sweet but I know i'm dreamin' :)

I think we have Sub $2k HDV in a couple of years hopefully with 3 ccds. That would really spur a lot of HD porn...oops did I say that out loud? No seriously it would be a boon for HD production.
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post #18 of 23 Old 06-14-2004, 04:40 PM
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Am I missing something here? If Moore's law applied to camcorders, by now we would be discussing $300 camcorders with tens of thousands of pixels per line! Is it really going to take over TEN years to get DV camcorders to DOUBLE in resolution!!!

Maybe Apple or Intel should investigate making camcorders since they understand digital technology better and they don't have any competing agendas...
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post #19 of 23 Old 06-14-2004, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Am I missing something here? If Moore's law applied to camcorders....
Yes, you're neglecting the fact that low-cost, low-power single-chip HD MPEG-2
encoders chips (that are capable of greater than 720p@30) are on a different
part of the Moore's law curve than the rest of the camera.

Ron

HD MPEG-2 Test Patterns http://www.w6rz.net
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post #20 of 23 Old 06-15-2004, 10:26 AM
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In the last ten years, we've seen an over 100 fold increase in hard drive recording density. A DV style compression for High Def would only require a six fold increase in density to keep the tapes at one hour. I even read somewhere that the origional design for the DV standard was 30 min at high def and 1 hour for standard def (long before the invention of MPEG encoding).

I know that there is a difference between hard drive recording technology and tape technology, but I have yet to be convinced that the camcorder manufacturers are all that interested in getting high def camcorders into the hands of consumers*. Especially when they are getting many tens of thousands of dollars for ENG cameras. Given that most of the networks were content to cover the 2nd Iraq war with cell phone cameras, the manufacturers are probably concerned that the networks would just equip their reporter teams with relatively cheap 'pro-sumer' high def camcorders.

If it wasn't for the fact that digital still cameras will soon be able to capture high resolution video (Nikon doesn't have to worry about canabalizing $60,000 ENG camera sales), we would probably have to wait many additional years!

* Of course, JVC deserves credit giving us something!
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post #21 of 23 Old 06-16-2004, 11:21 AM
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How about fitting 2 hours of MPEG-2 HD on a 120G HD? While intended for post production, Avid DNxHD will be released later this year. They demoed an Ike camera HD drive playing MPEG2 HD through a USB2 cable to a laptop for HD editing.
What does this mean for camcorders? High density media (IBM) for HD prosumer camcorders under development.
You're right about manufacturers concerned about network news departments using these "disposable" cameras. But, they are being talked about by the reps.
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http://www.avid.com/DNxHD/

Views expressed are my own and do not necessarily represent those of my employer or its parent company.
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post #22 of 23 Old 06-16-2004, 01:26 PM
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The thing that bothers me is the refusal to release 24p products at pro-sumer prices. Lets face it, it doesnt take any more technology to drive these devices at 6 fps *slower*, so its clearly just a way to segment the market for higher profits.
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post #23 of 23 Old 06-16-2004, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by George Thompson
How about fitting 2 hours of MPEG-2 HD on a 120G HD? While intended for post production, Avid DNxHD will be released later this year. They demoed an Ike camera HD drive playing MPEG2 HD through a USB2 cable to a laptop for HD editing.
What does this mean for camcorders? High density media (IBM) for HD prosumer camcorders under development.
You're right about manufacturers concerned about network news departments using these "disposable" cameras. But, they are being talked about by the reps.
GT
http://www.avid.com/DNxHD/

God I hope it's not MPEG2. No one is going to argue that MPEG2 is more efficient than some of today's codecs but that efficiency comes at the expense of editing in realtime on many systems. My guess is that with MXF this codec will be used for sending editited files around that have already been processed.
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