Moxi ( Motorola BMC90xx ) Q&A and Discussion Thread - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 12084 Old 08-30-2004, 09:48 AM
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I agree let us purchase the external drives.
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post #92 of 12084 Old 08-30-2004, 10:16 AM
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MoxiGuy,
I would like to inform you of an issue I am having. I posted it once earlier but since then have verified it to be an issue with all (at least two) Moxi boxes.

I have a 100" FP setup using component. There is a faint line the full width of the screen that moves from bottom to top. The line is pretty much present at all times including the boot process. I had a samsung T165 (OTA) tuner and also use a JVC DVD through these same cables and there is no line using these devices. Another interesting fact is that when opening some menus (in Moxi menu) the line will stop scrolling which further proves that the line is being caused my the Moxi.

I had Charter come out and swap the box but the same thing happened on the replacement box I asked to keep the original (due to recorded content). The cable guy was real nice and after evaluating the problem for a while he agreed that it was the Moxi box and not interference from the single or A/V cables. He said he would be reporting it to someone from the development group. It sounds like this is the first reported issue so maybe there is a bad "batch" of Moxi boxes or because the line is so faint it can only be seen on VERY large screens (100"+).

Anyways I sure hope this is being addressed. I will put up with it for a while but not too long.

On a nother sour note I recorded some movies and got some digital artifacts that I was used to using OTA (single issues) but was hoping this was a thing of the past using cable. What's being done to address this?

Thanks much,
RK
St. Cloud, Mn
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post #93 of 12084 Old 08-30-2004, 11:13 AM
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Moxiguy wrote:
We have two tuners. You can record both of them simultaneously.
---

Not necessarily..

When recording was in progress for an HD stream (NBCHD), I couldn't start recording a second SD stream (NBC RF), without Moxi saying it didn't have enough room and did I want to kill the original stream.

Perhaps it's a weirdness because the "scheduled program length" for the HD stream was hours and hours?
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post #94 of 12084 Old 08-30-2004, 11:38 AM
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One big problem with Moxi (or, at least, the BMC9012 implementation in it's current rev) is power consumption.

It draws about 150W, all the time. Not only does this make putting it in a cabinet problematic (think Easy-Bake oven), but it's expensive!

At $0.25/kWh (which is a decent estimate of what an "additional" kWh will set you back in SoCal, after you've busted the baseline, etc.) , that's $0.90/day just to keep the box alive.

Or, to put it more in perspective, a bit more than $300/year.

The device needs a low power standby mode of some sort. Presumably, it could spin down the drive when not needed, and idle the processors and a/d and d/a converters, tuners, etc.

10W is fine for standby power (although it's a big problem in a larger sense.. all those little wall warts at 5-10W add up).

For now, I think a simple timer on the AC is probably in order, although it reduces the usefulness of scheduling recording automatically.
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post #95 of 12084 Old 08-30-2004, 07:03 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by jimlux
It draws about 150W, all the time....a bit more than $300/year

Not quite so much. Are you going by ratings printed on the back of the box? Those are maxiums. Actuals are about 80W. I'll pass your suggestions for power savings to our HW developers.
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post #96 of 12084 Old 08-30-2004, 07:09 PM
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Jimlux,
You got me. (but did I say "always"?) Yes... it's because of the length of the program as listed. (Who knew the Olympics would be chunked out five to eight hours at a stretch?) The scheduling software calculates whether there will be room on the drive before confirming a recording. (Some DVRs just stop if you fill up the drive). Next time the summer games roll around, I predict we'll all have substantially larger hard drives.
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post #97 of 12084 Old 08-30-2004, 07:14 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by htaddict1513
There is a faint line the full width of the screen that moves from bottom to top.

1) What projector make and model?
2) What video output mode (480i, etc.) is the Moxi set to?_ Does the line exist in all output modes?
3) As a test, is it easy to try S-Video output to see if the line still exists?
4) By thin line, is it similar to a single scan line in width?
5) Does it exist on all channels or just specific channels?
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post #98 of 12084 Old 08-31-2004, 06:36 AM
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1) What projector make and model?
BenQ 8220 (XGA) Projector - No other sources on same or different inputs produce this problem.

2) What video output mode (480i, etc.) is the Moxi set to?_ Does the line exist in all output modes?
Will have to verify but I believe it is in all modes. For sure 720P and 1080i.

3) As a test, is it easy to try S-Video output to see if the line still exists?
This would not be easy and S-Video is not an option. Would rather give up on Moxi!

4) By thin line, is it similar to a single scan line in width?
The line is faint and I would guess at least 2-3 pixel thick. Visiblity greatly depends on th e particular picture. Some colors hide the line better then others. The line flickers as it moves up the screen, when the line is 3/4 the way up another line starts at the bottom.

5) Does it exist on all channels or just specific channels?
Again, will have to verify but I believe all channels.. For sure all HD channels and as noted above it will even happen during the boot process on the boot loading screen. Makes it sound like it is the projector or cables but then when entering certain menus in the Moxi Menu the line would not stop until the menu is exited..

I will try to verify the unknowns..

Thanks,
RK
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post #99 of 12084 Old 08-31-2004, 09:00 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by htaddict1513
3) As a test, is it easy to try S-Video output to see if the line still exists?
This would not be easy and S-Video is not an option. Would rather give up on Moxi!

We aren't proposing that you settle for S-Video. Just wondering if you could report on it to give us more clues about what's going on.
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post #100 of 12084 Old 08-31-2004, 09:17 AM
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MoxiGuy, Interesting product! I have 2 HDTV's. Based on what I've read, the 4 tuner model would serve 1 hd and 3 analog tv's (through RG-6). Any way to pass an HD or SD(digital) signal to a second set? Will I need 2 9012's instead?
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post #101 of 12084 Old 08-31-2004, 09:31 AM
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Posted some of this in the Adelphia HD thread, but, here goes:

I imagine that each cable provider sets up default configurations and channel tables for their system, which might explain some of the peculiarities.

It's unclear which output resolution from the Moxi that I should use into my Samsung DLP. Not much visible difference between 1080i and 720p. The Samsung is native 720p, but I don't know what format the HD over cable is coming over in (if it's even the same for all HD channels... it isn't over the air, after all)

Integration of the plethora of remotes is a pain. I've got the Samsung remote (needed to select which input to use (RF,Component,DVI) , and to turn it on and off. I've got the stereo remote (to select which audio, control the volume, etc.), the DVD remote, and now, the Moxi remote. I haven't trudged through all the alternatives of programming macros and combinations, etc. yet., but I'm hopeful that I can come up with some sort of useful strategy.
(I've also learned, from the remote central site, that it's possible the Moxi uses a different encoding which the standard learning remote can't use... more of a wireless IR keyboard high rate thing... it would make sense given the eventual use of the BMC as a "control hub". hey, it's a PC, it would have no problem emitting all manner of IR signals to all your other devices, but, until that is a reality, it's a royal pain.)


The SD output of the Moxi is, to put it mildly, hideously bad quality. Not sure why, but I'm much better off using the RF tuner in the TV. Makes no difference whether I use component (presumably upsampled), composite video or RF outputs from the BMC9012, they are all horrid, with quantization artifacts, screwed up color balance, etc. (and, of course, this applies to recorded programs off the DVR... making that function of limited usefulness). Arguments about needing to do A/D: MPEG2 compression, decompression/A are bogus, in my opinion. Clearly, one can get an acceptable signal in 4.5 MHz of analog bandwidth with the RF. One should be able to do the same with modern A/D and signal processing hardware.

It's trivial to do an A/B comparison between RF and composite video (or RF) coming out of the BMC9012, because you can set up the Samsung for split screen. (one can also see the several second delay through the BMC9012 with this, of course)


The audio level (digital output) on the HD channels is fine, but the level is 15-20 dB higher on the RF channels (1-100), so if you switch between an HD channel and a SD channel, you either get blasted or can't hear anything.
I haven't tried recording and playing back to see if there's the same difference.

If I had to guess, there's some digital encoding options on the SD channels that are screwed up. There's no reason for it to be that bad. Recorded HD is fairly good quality (I haven't figured out how to easily A/B it..but there's no huge artifacts)

I don't know how it handles it when the HD channel reverts to SD when recording (the NBCHD reverted to SD for the closing ceremonies.. I'll check it tonight.). Later.. oops, I haven't looked, because of the following little "feature":

On recording and playback. When NBC sends program info out so the Olympics record as a huge 5+ hour single block (filled up the disk!), how do you scroll around through it, aside from using FF or REW? If you want to look at the last half hour, for instance, you need a way to "goto" or "jump" in 1/2 hr increments or to an actual time. (probably 30 minute jumps would do)
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post #102 of 12084 Old 08-31-2004, 10:47 AM
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Pat,
Today, you would need two Moto BMC9012s. (You are a rare and lucky viewer to have two HD sets).

We have a plan for serving HD to other rooms, but our timing for releasing it will wait until there's a larger population that can use it.
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post #103 of 12084 Old 08-31-2004, 10:51 AM
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Oh, if only I could participate in this discussion! When will Charter offer this box to ME?
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post #104 of 12084 Old 08-31-2004, 11:31 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by MoxiGuy
Pat,
Today, you would need two Moto BMC9012s. (You are a rare and lucky viewer to have two HD sets).

We have a plan for serving HD to other rooms, but our timing for releasing it will wait until there's a larger population that can use it.

There are some who will want two just to up the record capacity. I remember when I had 4 ReplayTV 5040s. (I sold two).

I'm ready to upgrade the bedroom to HD. Sharing would really be nice with the family room.

I concur on remotes. I just counted seven in the bedroom and I think I have about eight in the family room. I just bought a Harmony, but its going to take some time to get it set up right. Some custom remapping is inevitable.

Ken Elliott
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post #105 of 12084 Old 09-01-2004, 06:52 AM
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Moxi box problem... I may have found the problem with the faint scan line issue I was reporting.. I hope so! I tried some different things to troubleshoot the problem and it looks like a different power cable on the projector may have resolved the issue. I will have to test it longer but so far so good. Strange thing is no other A/V sources (DVD, T165, Computer) using the same cable or different cable causes the problem. Other strange thing is that the line stopped scrolling when visiting different menus within Moxi so again seems strange the a power cable on the PJ would cause the problem. Anyways, what ever the case I hope this did resolve it! I will report back with results..

Now I only have these things to complain about..
USB2 External storage
Moxi menu speed
Charter MN - ABC, CBS, D-HDTV!
DVI output.
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post #106 of 12084 Old 09-02-2004, 09:15 AM
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Another night and no scan line problem! Since I am a network/computer engineer I have seen stranger things but all I care is that it is fixed.. On a nother quality note I recored Minority Report off Showtime or HBO (can't remmeber which one) and through-out the movie there were was a lot of pixelization (digital tv signal artifact?) and towards the end of the movie (last 30+ min) it become totally un-watchable! Checked other recording and live TV, no problems so it must of been a single problem. I have seen it a couple times now but not to this extreme. This is something I was used to with OTA since I live 60+ miles from the towers but did not expect to have the problem with cable! What gives?

RK
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post #107 of 12084 Old 09-02-2004, 11:51 AM
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I got setup with MOXI today. I agree with most of the issues that have been brought up but atleast I am happy that I can finally record HD.

MoxiGuy said that in the future, it will be possible to change the video mode to automatically use the format being broadcasted. I see a problem with this because my TV (Samsung DLP HLN567W) has two sets of component inputs. One is for 480i/480p and the other is for 480p/720p/1080i. There is no single input that accepts all the possible formats. Now what happens if I am watching a program that is in 720p and then I switch to something that is 480i? My TV wont be able to handle that unless they devise a way for MOXI to output component and RF/composite/s-vid at the same time. To my knowledge, this is not currently supported.
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post #108 of 12084 Old 09-02-2004, 12:15 PM
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I don't think this is a problem. What moxiguy said is that in the future, the box will pass through whatever signal it gets from the cable feed, and then let your TV do any stretching, etc.

I've got the same model Samsung that you do (the 46" version), and I currently have my Motorola 5100 cable box set to pass through 16:9 programming as 720P, and I have the 4:3 override setting on the cable box set to pass through 4:3 programming as 480i. This is essentially what the moxi will do in the future. My TV displays everthing fine this way via DVI (it works on the HD component input as well).
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post #109 of 12084 Old 09-02-2004, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by GlendaleHDTV
I don't think this is a problem. What moxiguy said is that in the future, the box will pass through whatever signal it gets from the cable feed, and then let your TV do any stretching, etc.

I've got the same model Samsung that you do (the 46" version), and I currently have my Motorola 5100 cable box set to pass through 16:9 programming as 720P, and I have the 4:3 override setting on the cable box set to pass through 4:3 programming as 480i. This is essentially what the moxi will do in the future. My TV displays everthing fine this way via DVI (it works on the HD component input as well).

Well, if MOXI just passes through the signal then it might pass 480i at one instance and later 720p, depending on what you are watching. There is no single component input on the TV that can handle both signals. Notice a problem?

I don't see how the override fixes this issues, assuming the MOXI even has it.
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post #110 of 12084 Old 09-02-2004, 02:09 PM
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Well, if MOXI just passes through the signal then it might pass 480i at one instance and later 720p, depending on what you are watching. There is no single component input on the TV that can handle both signals. Notice a problem?

I don't see how the override fixes this issues, assuming the MOXI even has it.

I'm by no means an expert, I just know that my current cable box passes through 480i and 720p and my Samsung HLN467W is able to handle both on the same input (DVI), so I'm assuming that if the Moxi will pass through the signal the same way my current box does, it should work. What happens if you go into the Moxi menu and change the video ouput resolution to 480i? Does your TV display the signal? If so, then I wouldn't think you would have a problem.
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post #111 of 12084 Old 09-02-2004, 02:45 PM
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I also just got my Moxi box this week.

The good:
- I can now record HD.

The bad:
- I can only record 8 hours of HD.
- Digital SD doesn't look that good. After the Moxi box scales it to 720p and stretches it to 16:9, and my TV squashes it back to 4:3, the picture looks pretty beat up. Digital SD looked very good through the Motorola 6200.

The ugly:
- Analog SD is unwatchable. The stations don't seem to tune in that well. And then upscaling them to 720p on a digital TV makes it 10 times worse. Analog SD with the 6200 wasn't perfect, but it was definitely better than Moxi.

I asked the installer how many of the boxes they had installed, and he said a lot over the last few weeks. He said that only a couple of those were HD installations. I think this PVR will work for people with SD, which is 98% of their user base, but people with HD are going to have issues with it. I really wanted this to work but my wife watches mainly SD TV and is giving me a bad time about PQ, so it will probably go back.

MoxiGuy, I also have a Samsung where there is no place for both 480i and 720p/1080i on the same connection. How will the new software deal with this. If we output SD through 480p will it scale correctly, or will this only work with 480i?

octavian
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post #112 of 12084 Old 09-02-2004, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by GlendaleHDTV
I'm by no means an expert, I just know that my current cable box passes through 480i and 720p and my Samsung HLN467W is able to handle both on the same input (DVI), so I'm assuming that if the Moxi will pass through the signal the same way my current box does, it should work. What happens if you go into the Moxi menu and change the video ouput resolution to 480i? Does your TV display the signal? If so, then I wouldn't think you would have a problem.

The difference is that you are using DVI, not component. The DVI input on our TV's can accept all the different signals, component cannot. Currently, DVI is not active on MOXI. Even if it becomes available later, some people may prefer to use DVI for their DVD player.
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post #113 of 12084 Old 09-02-2004, 03:44 PM
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Since my Samsung DLP has no single component input that accepts 480i and 720p, I had to jump through some hoops to make it do what I wanted.

First of all, if your cable installer is like mine, he probably wont even know that the box outputs 480i by default and that you have to tweek the settings to change to 720p/1080i on HDTV's.

The MOXI only has one component output so you have to save it for the 480p/720p/1080i input on your TV. But since the box defaults to 480i, you wont be able to see anything that way when you turn it on. To get around this, use a composite video cable to connect the composite output of the MOXI to one of the composite inputs of the TV. Also connect the component cable to one of the 480p/720p/1080i component inputs.

Switch the TV video mode to composite and turn on MOXI. You should be able to see the MOXI display. Go into settings and change the video output to 720p (or 1080i if you prefer). The display will go out. Quickly switch the TV video mode to component. You should see the MOXI display again, this time in the new resolution, asking you if the switch worked. Say yes. You have to do this in 10 seconds or it will revert back to 480i.

This is mostly an issue with the TV but I hope MOXI developers take it into consideration when designing new features.
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post #114 of 12084 Old 09-02-2004, 11:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by octavian

I asked the installer how many of the boxes they had installed, and he said a lot over the last few weeks. He said that only a couple of those were HD installations. I think this PVR will work for people with SD, which is 98% of their user base, but people with HD are going to have issues with it. I really wanted this to work but my wife watches mainly SD TV and is giving me a bad time about PQ, so it will probably go back.

octavian

If 98% of the user base is SD, this box will have problems, one might as well get a ReplayTV or Tivo that have more features. The market is the high end HD user that also gets pemium channels. 2% of the base but 10% of the profit.

Ken Elliott
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post #115 of 12084 Old 09-03-2004, 06:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by tnili
Well, if MOXI just passes through the signal then it might pass 480i at one instance and later 720p, depending on what you are watching. There is no single component input on the TV that can handle both signals. Notice a problem?

I don't see how the override fixes this issues, assuming the MOXI even has it.

Four points:
1. you can cycle through resolutions today on the front panel of the box. So if you aren't seeing any picture at all, you can switch to a resolution that your TV can handle without changing the cabling. (press OK and LiveTV simultaneously. The LED swtiches from time to tell you the current resolution. Then use ch up or down to cycle through resolutions until you get a picture that you can see. Answer the onscreen dialog box YES.)

2. In an upcoming release, when we will auto-switch resolutions to match native mode... we'll only do that if your TV can handle the native incoming resolution. If not, we'll scale it to something that works for you.

3. When Moxi is outputting 480i, all video output ports are live simultaneously. The s-video and composite ports only go dark when Moxi is in higher resolutions.

4. I'll ask our developers to look into the issues you report with Samsung DLP
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post #116 of 12084 Old 09-03-2004, 12:11 PM
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Thanks for the reply, MoxiGuy. I think being able to tell MOXI what resolutions your TV supports is an elegant solution to the problem I brought up. I assume scaling 480i to 480p will keep the OAR of the program.

As to your point about changing the resolution by pressing those buttons on the box, I think that is very useful for initial setup. It certainly eliminates the need for switching cables if I understand it correctly. This is one of those hidden features that needs to be documented so the average user can see it.
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post #117 of 12084 Old 09-03-2004, 01:36 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by tnili
I assume scaling 480i to 480p will keep the OAR of the program.

Apologies. I've had to edit my previous post. Current plan of record is that if you uncheck 480i as a possible output, it will scale to 1080i. On the upside, our engineer working on this problem was planning to buy the same Samsung model you have, so he has some personal motivation to find an elegant solution.
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post #118 of 12084 Old 09-03-2004, 02:23 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by MoxiGuy
Apologies. I've had to edit my previous post. Current plan of record is that if you uncheck 480i as a possible output, it will scale to 1080i. On the upside, our engineer working on this problem was planning to buy the same Samsung model you have, so he has some personal motivation to find an elegant solution.

If he buys the current model that they just started selling, then he will not have this problen. The newest Samsung DLP's support 1080i/720p/480p/480i all on one component conection. But there are a lot of Samsungs out there that don't support it, so give us his email address and we will motivate him.

When I bring up the info bar at the bottom of the screen and then use the channel +/-, the picture squeezes (the info banner stays the same) down to about a 4:3 aspect. Just tell him to refine this bug (or feature) and he will be there.

Also, is there a "one button" exit out of the menu system. It can be confusing trying to get back to what I was watching.

Thanks for your help,
octavian
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post #119 of 12084 Old 09-04-2004, 11:18 AM
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The biggest issue that I have with MOXI right now is the remote. I use a MX-500 universal remote to control my AV gear and I wanted to add MOXI to the list of devices that it controls. I was able to learn all the keys on the MOXI remote but using the MX-500 to control MOXI proved unreliable and frustrating. Some of the fucntions worked while other required pressing and hold the button down, while some refused to work altogether.
I read in another post that the MOXI remote uses a different kind of IR signal that does not fully work with learning remotes.

Has anyone experienced this issue and are there any workarounds?
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post #120 of 12084 Old 09-04-2004, 12:48 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by octavian
Also, is there a "one button" exit out of the menu system. It can be confusing trying to get back to what I was watching.

Here are the exits:

zoom is a toggle: from the menu, it will bring whatever is in the corner video window to full screen; from full-screen, it will reveal the U-I in whatever state you last left it.

MOXI: from full-screen, it will reveal the menu; if you are anywhere in the menu but Channels (the home position), it will bring you back to Channels; if you're on Channels; it will go to full screen. (this is designed for folks who don't want to hunt buttons. If you just keep pressing Moxi you'll eventually get back to full screen.)

live TV: if you're in the menu, you'll go live to last channel tuned; if you're watching behind live (from the pause buffer), you'll jump to realtime live; if you're using any other form of media (DVR playback, or--in future versions--photos, DVD, or mp3); you'll jump to liveTV

back: if you're in the menu, it will take you to full-screen.
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