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post #1 of 52 Old 04-16-2000, 07:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Have any of you experienced difficulty getting DFS-300 or DFS-420 tape stock? Panasonic has continuously backordered DFS-300 on my supplier and has denied the existence of DFS-420. What has been your experience?

Is the consensus now that SVHS tape will perform equally well for PV-HD1000 recording as the DFS-300?

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post #2 of 52 Old 04-16-2000, 11:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Rodney:

What did you pay for the 420's? I want to compare with the price I was quoted for the 300 in cost per minute. It may not be worth while looking for.

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post #3 of 52 Old 04-16-2000, 04:57 PM
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I haven't tested the 420 length DVHS tapes.

Of the longer (180 minute) SVHS and ADAT-SVHS tapes, I haven't found any that gave good results with the PVHD1000.

Do the 420 DHVS tapes give good playback without increased dropouts on the PVHD1000?

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post #4 of 52 Old 04-16-2000, 08:23 PM
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Hey guys...you can find the JVC DF-300 & DF-400 D-VHS tapes and also the Maxell DF-300 D-VHS tape at Tape Warehouse. They can be ordered at www.tapewarehouse.com



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post #5 of 52 Old 04-17-2000, 10:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Richard:

Have you given any more thought on adding the Techniques AC3 decoder? I'm thinking this may be in order here. I just need to locate one now. Several have reported complete dropout fixes with this decoder connected to the 6 channel input on the Denon-5700 which is what I have.

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post #6 of 52 Old 04-17-2000, 12:05 PM
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I recorded Titanic last night on a JVC XG-210 SVHS. I have not watched the whole tape, but watched the last 45min and there were no video dropouts that I noticed, and I am pretty particular about this kind of thing. The recording time on the 210 is 3.5 hours. I got the tape at tapeworld for $14.99, but tapewarehouse sells them for $14.00.

Concerning the audio dropouts using the D-VHS with certain receivers, since my Kenwood does not have 6ch inputs, I got the Technics SA-DX930 which plays back digital audio from the TU-DST51/D-VHS combo without dropouts. I have been using it for several weeks, and am having no problem with audio dropouts. Unfortunately, the Technics has pretty weak Pro-Logic decoding, so for the HBO 2CH recordings I use the Kenwood. The dynamics are comprable to DD, without the split surrounds of course. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif
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post #7 of 52 Old 04-17-2000, 09:57 PM
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The problems I saw with the 180 min svhs/adat and svhs tapes, even broadcast quality were immeditately apparent on playback, lots of dropouts. Others had reported problems with longer SVHS tapes as well. I'm curious if the 420 tapes play back ok, as the DVHS tapes were originally intended for DVHS machines that recorded lower bitrates, i.e. 14mb versus HDTV's 19mb.

Put a recorded 420 tape in and watch it for couple of minutes is all I ask...

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post #8 of 52 Old 04-18-2000, 01:22 AM
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What advantages are you guys seeing with the D-VHS compared to S-VHS tape and the PV HD1000?

I've been using SVHS to save expense. So far, the recordings appear perfect. Is it a problem with durability?

Thanks, wanted to ask before I order any more tape.

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post #9 of 52 Old 04-18-2000, 06:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Mike2--

There seems to be more dropout with SVHS tape than the DVHS but this is with a Denon5700 receiver that has known decoder problems with this system. The video looks fine in my tests. I have a new decoder on order and will repeate my tests once it arrives. If I were you and haven't been experiencing the dropouts, I'd continue using the SVHS tape.


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post #10 of 52 Old 04-18-2000, 01:03 PM
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Don.
I dont see any change from generation 1. I expected that from digital to digital but tested to see if there might be some compounding of errors leading to dropouts with the SVHS tape.
My only other concern now is how the tapes will hold up over months or years on the shelf.

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post #11 of 52 Old 04-18-2000, 01:47 PM - Thread Starter
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I have tapes here that have been properly stored for over 15 years that still do fine.

Granted that metal tape is more impervious than oxide but if you are careful in how you store them you will get pretty long life. I'd be more concerned that the recorder will break down and you won't have a machine that will play the things 10 years from now. I have this problem now with about 15 beta I SHB masters that don't have a working player.



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post #12 of 52 Old 04-18-2000, 03:55 PM
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I suspect you're right. I'm hoping at least one vcr will last until more cost effective disk storage comes along. Then hopefully there will be a way to dump from tape to disk.
It seems like it shouldnt be too hard to come up with software to allow the mpeg2 data to enter a pc via a firewire port.
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post #13 of 52 Old 04-18-2000, 04:55 PM - Thread Starter
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I just ordered a case of each 420 and 300 so lets see what comes in. Currently I'm out and only have 60's in SVHS so I hope nothing exciting comes on in a few days. <BG>

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post #14 of 52 Old 04-18-2000, 09:28 PM
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OK. Thanks Don.

The random audio dropouts on mine disappeared after changing to a Technics receiver. To further check the tape type today, I dubbed a 5 minute segment one machine to another over firewire. Using Fuji SVHS tape there were no dropouts even after 20 generations.

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post #15 of 52 Old 04-18-2000, 09:43 PM - Thread Starter
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WOW! 20 generations. That's impressive. Wonder how the picture looked.

I only go as high as 8 generations on betacam and then it gets real fuzzy. I often wondered about 1394 and native mpeg recording. Let me know about your opinion on the picture quality.

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post #16 of 52 Old 04-19-2000, 02:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Ken, I assume you are using the same Panasonic recording system I have. What has been your experience with the audio drop out issue? What receiver do you use? I just ordered the Techniques decoder to resolve my dropout problem as has been discussed on these forums.

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post #17 of 52 Old 04-19-2000, 10:11 AM
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Don- I sold off my EDV9500 decks on ebay since the going price was great and have kept my EDV7500 deck and kept it tuned up since it plays all beta tapes inclucing B1sh and ED. I plan to convert these to DV or MJPEG or MPEG, and have been waiting for DVD-RAM media prices to fall before doing so. I stopped using the EDV7500 beta deck for timeshifting and have been using one of the hard drive based units. Viewing from a distance, they don't look too bad. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif


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post #18 of 52 Old 04-19-2000, 11:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Richard:

The machine you have is not the same as the beta tapes I have. What I have is a beta 1 speed on oxide tape that uses a 7.0 Mhz. Luminance carrier. To my knowledge Sony only ever made one machine that would play these format tapes. It was a consumer edit machine I think the model number is SLHF1000. I had two of them for a cuts only edit suite back in 1984. There wrapped up in plastic and in storage now.

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post #19 of 52 Old 04-19-2000, 07:44 PM
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Don-

Both the EDV9500 and 7500 will play BIshb tapes although they only record at BII or BIII. I have a couple of dozen BIshb tapes made with a DXC-M3 3-tube camera in conjunction with an SLHF1000 that I shot in the late '80s, plus some underwater video edits as well. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

They play fine on the ED-Beta decks.

I heard there's a company that installs a mod in the older SLHF900 deck to allow playback of BIshb tapes as well.

Btw - the SLHF1000 didn't exist in '84. The machine was first sold in the US near the end of 1987. This is according to my chronological archive.

Are the items in storage your tapes or the SLHF1000 machines?



[This message has been edited by Richard Adams (edited April 19, 2000).]

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post #20 of 52 Old 04-19-2000, 09:09 PM - Thread Starter
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I recall that my first beta 1 editor was a slo383 back then. I advanced to the consumer SLHF900 that I don't believe recorded the B1 but did play them back although not very well. That machine has long since died. Later I bought one of the first SLHF1000 units on the market. I was on the waiting list for almost 3 months after they announced the product. That is the VCR I have in storage but I think the head is damaged as it won't play the tapes anymore. If you have a way to play them do you have access to another recorder, like a betacam or even 3/4Umatic? I would love to get a couple of these tapes dubbed over to betacam. The audio is on the linear track.

They are my first edit projects I did before actually being in the business. They are of underwater cave explorations.

I'm back from the tape closet. I just checked a couple of those old B1SHB masters. Dated January 1986 so I had to have had the machine then. I believe I did get it late in 1985.




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post #21 of 52 Old 04-19-2000, 09:37 PM
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I can dub SB1HB to either Betacam or SVHS on a JVC 9600 using the 15th anniversary SLHF2100. We have a Betacam editing suite up here. It would be my pleasure..

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post #22 of 52 Old 04-19-2000, 10:08 PM
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I could offer a dub to miniDV. Yes the 2100 did play B1shb I recall, though I've stuck with the EDV7500 since it does it all.

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post #23 of 52 Old 04-19-2000, 10:22 PM
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I sold my SLHF1000 as soon as the EDV9500 came out. I kept the SLHF900 running up until last November when I sold it. New heads, new pinch roller, belts, etc several times, oh and cassette housings too. I think I got almost $600 for the SLHF900 on ebay http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif Parts are no longer available for most betamax decks. If you still have a working betamax deck, get all the routine maintainence parts NOW before they're discontinued.


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post #24 of 52 Old 04-19-2000, 11:01 PM - Thread Starter
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I really thought the B1 SHB at 7 Mhz. died with the SLHF1000. Never new about the 2100. Anyway my old 1000's don't play anymore. They have lots of color flashing, meaning they have worn out heads. I ran them hard until about 1989 when I got my first Type 5 3/4Umatic edit system.

I'd be real interested in that betacam dub service. Would you e-mail me to offer me a quote on 60 minute runs? I can supply all tape stock. I'd have about 6 that I would like to get done but if the tapes are bad then then I guess they're gone forever.

I also have a Sony DSR-60 that will play mini DV tapes. I think these come in 60 minute max size too, right? I use DVCAM here which is shorter mini size. (40 minutes)

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post #25 of 52 Old 04-20-2000, 11:16 AM
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Hey Guys,
Dishonline.com has the JVC DFS-300 available for $10/tape in a 10 pack. It came very promptly.
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post #26 of 52 Old 04-20-2000, 01:22 PM
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Don Landis - Color flashing may not always be a sign of worn heads. Have you got more than one SLHF1000? Interested in repair? Sometimes these old beasties can be cured even though parts are discontinued. Often parts from models that aren't discontinued can be used.

As an experiment, I reprogrammed my TRV900 to record at DVCAM mode. This gave me the wider tape pitch that results in the shorter operating time, and increased reliability.
After proving that it works, I set it back to TRV900 mode and usually record in LP getting 90 minutes per miniDV cassette while shooting raw footage.

I already converted all my BetaSP to miniDV and got rid of my BetaSP decks. Repair and maint parts for Beta SP is now outrageous as Sony is pushing people to upgrade to digital.

If you wanted me to convert your BIshb tapes to miniDV, I'd be happy to accept one blank tape for each tape I make for you. New sealed tapes only please. That is, I need two blanks for each one I burn for you. The second tape is payment. I'd prefer to do 60 or 90 minute mode rather than 40 so as not to have to reprogram the machine.

I just ordered a new set of maint parts for the EDV7500 deck, so no problem on that one yet.


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post #27 of 52 Old 04-20-2000, 02:55 PM - Thread Starter
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>>Color flashing may not always be a sign of worn heads.
Not always, but when you know the head penetration is just a couple of microns and it should be 12 or more that would be my guess. Remember, I used these machines back before I knew better and used those abrasive cleaning tapes everytime I felt the heads needed cleaning. Today I clean heads only when needed and I have over 10,000 hours on my beta editor and the heads still have 15 microns of head penetration. (I have a scope http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif)

I just may take you up on your offer. I'll have to order some mini DV tapes. I only stock 184 DVCAM here. Any preference? besides 60's? FWIW: I won't be too critical on quality because these tapes I'd like to get dubbed were shot using VHS-C and edited with that 1000 in B1shb. I'm sure the edits arn't all that great too but if I got a good clean dub to something I could see that would be great.

The second SLHF1000 I had won't feed tape right. It's guides are sloppy and I would not prefer to put any good tape in it.

The new AC500 decoder arrived today and I'm looking forward to hooking it up, maybe tonight. I sure hope it makes the DD5.1 perfect. That still is the one remaining embarrassment about my HT.

One of my former 3D studio students stopped in this afternoon and I demoed my HT to him:

His comments were that he was just blown away by the size of the screen, the quality difference between SDTV and HDTV, the lack of quality loss in my DVHS recorder, and most of all was amazed with the DD5.1 sound, ie, until the dropouts occurred. Then I had to make the excuses. Oh well. Maybe by the weekend this problem will be behind me.
Unfortunately, all HDTV movie channels were running SDTV 4:3 so all I could show was DTV199 and the PVHD1000 recording of What Dreams May Come. He could not get over the color in that movie. He is an artist by profession now and was quite familiar with that movie I had on DVHS, although I prefer to demo with the Star Trek tape.


Let me know on those mini DV60's type you prefer. I'll ask for them with my tape dealer. I know he stocks Sony, so if that is OK...




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post #28 of 52 Old 04-20-2000, 04:31 PM
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Don-

If heads aren't worn out on the other SLHF1000 there is a good chance I could use the parts from one to fix the other.

I am happy to use whatever brand miniDV tapes you are willing to use in your own equipment.

I have a discussion still going with Dolby and JVC about the interoperability problem.

Seems to me you were talking about this SLHF1000 problem a year ago on the sci.rec.video newsgroup.

I was successful high bidder on one of those technics decoders. Now if only the seller would respond...

Tape head wear is dependant on hold back tension setting. By increasing the tension, a machine with weak heads can be made to play tapes, but the wear will increase. As tapes begin to wear they become more abrasive and wear out heads faster as well.

Sometimes cleaning tapes don't wear heads out but instead deposit debris that make the heads appear worn. This is difficult but not impossible to fix. When replacement heads are readily available I'd never consider trying to fix this. In this case it's worth a look. I have repaired other betamax heads this way, though a disassembly and removal of the head disk is required.

I have found that the EDV7500 plays back all types of beta tapes better than any other consumer betamax deck. If a tape can be played, this one will do it.

I have a library of clips from the Tonite Show including musicians and famous actors. This is pretty impressive demo material for many age groups and interests.

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post #29 of 52 Old 04-20-2000, 04:51 PM - Thread Starter
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>>Seems to me you were talking about this SLHF1000 problem a year ago on the sci.rec.video newsgroup.

I doubt it. Never heard of that before and also, I don't believe I ever posted to a news group. Years ago I checked into one of those, found it awkward and unfriendly, never went back. That was in the days of the spry browser so it dates me with news groups.

I don't want to fiddle with the repair of a deck like that SLHF. It just isn't worth the time to fix something that has no use or value to me or anyone else. The thing is just shot. BTW- I'm aware of all your comments regarding tricks to achieve life out of the heads. There are other disadvantages you did not mention to increasing tension and I would not recommend it. There is a reason why the tension spec has a range. Heads can be replaced Masters are far more difficult. BTW the scope I was referring to is an actual microscope designed to measure head penetration. I don't know what the other heads are like because that machine had other problems. At one time I considered moving to ED beta. I even had a demo system here to try out, including the camcorder. I decided to go to Type 5 3/4Umatic instead. I never regret having done that. After nearly 8 years of use I sold the Type 5 edit system for more than I paid for it.

Anyway, I need to get down to the HT and unpack that decoder. I'm eager to see if this fixes the problem as all others have reported.

I'll get some mini DV's in and collect the masters. Then I'll ask for your address to send everything to you. Probably next week.



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post #30 of 52 Old 04-20-2000, 06:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Great news on the Techniques Decoder!

This afternoon I counted 37 dropouts in the first hour of What Dreams May Come. After hooking up the connections and switching the inputs I started the movie over again this evening and watched the movie looking for those dropouts. None! Nada! Gone! OK, so I have one more black box on the rack but it is worth it to have resolved this problem. I can see now that I will want to start really building the tape library. Next I want to go back and test some of the big failures I tried before which were dropouts at the two speeds eventhough most people here can't seem to get the lower speed. I also want to try the SVHS tape test again.

This AC500 decoder works as claimed by others for fixing the DD5.1 dropouts.

Heck, I haven't even read the manual yet. Back to watching the rest of the movie dropout free!



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