Finally, HD from the HD-30000! - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 19 Old 04-01-2001, 10:49 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Robert Cobler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Northern California
Posts: 375
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
While most members have been trying to get their JVC HD-30000's to communicate with their DST50/51's, I have been trying to get true HD output from the JVC. I believe the reasons for both problems is the same culprit, copy protection:

When I record a program from Dish Network via my DST50/HD1000, it will not play back on the JVC in HD. When the vcr starts, a message flashes on the screen saying "HS SD" (high-speed, standard definition) and the output video is soft. Apparently a tape without any 5C code is considered an illegal tape.

I've tried Jaehong Lee's suggestion of playing a "JP" tape (Japan tape) first, then switching to my tape. Since I don't have any JP tapes, I've tried using off-air recordings as "starters" with no success. Tonight was a different story. My local CBS station's evening HD programs played in HD on the JVC perfectly, for the first time. Obviously something was different and I believe the difference was CBS had the copy protection bits switched on.

Jaehong Lee's trick now works if I use tonights CBS recording as a starter. Other tapes that would not play in HD up to now can be played successfully--if you use a "starter". Fast-forward and fast reverse doesn't seem to matter, however if I stop the HD1000 tape, then restart, I get the "FS SD" message again and a soft picture. Going through the original procedure allows HD again. Conclusion: The HD30000 must see a 5C tape or it won't playback in HD. The ability to "fool" machine as described is probably a software bug which may get fixed in the export models.

I'd be interested in hearing if others find the same operational situation. If what I describe is a bug, do others find the same bug? Remember, you first need a tape without 5C to see if the system goes to "SD" mode. I got mine from Dish/HBO-HD and my PV-HD1000. Of course you then need a valid 5C "starter" tape to allow HD playback.

[This message has been edited by Robert Cobler (edited 04-02-2001).]
Robert Cobler is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 19 Old 04-02-2001, 12:22 PM
AVS Special Member
 
h2ofun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: auburn,ca usa
Posts: 3,662
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thats great Robert.

So I guess if one has the latest dst50 firmware, you are set.

I assume if you copy the tape with the leader that all the bits stay there.

Kinda a pain but doing any of this is.

dave
h2ofun is offline  
post #3 of 19 Old 04-02-2001, 01:21 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Robert Cobler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Northern California
Posts: 375
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
The fact that you can play a tape in HD doesn't guarantee you can make an HD copy. I will fool around some more.

Having the right firmware in the 50 says th DH-30000 will recognize the tape as legit and will allow whatever the recorded 5C info permits. Let's hope that isn't self-destruct!
Robert Cobler is offline  
post #4 of 19 Old 04-02-2001, 08:18 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Richard Adams's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Northern California
Posts: 2,460
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
The problem I see with this is that recordings made from over the air stations, in particular NBC as reported by Gridleak, are not playing back in full HD by the JVC deck. This is likely due to a setting made by the NBC affiliate, perhaps inadvertantly.

The TV channels are loaned to the stations. Timeshifting of video is an acceptable fair use of transmissions IMHO. I do not think that any OTA TV station should be allowed to "protect" transmissions from timeshifting in full resolution on their "free" commercially sponsored channel.

I admit that this might be permissible with a subscription channel they could also offer, but te purpose of Congress allowing this would be to increase revenues, and it is possible that disallowing full resolution timeshifting may actually hurt OTA broadcasters reveues.

The NBC affiliate may not even know that their signal is doing this to the JVC VCR, or this could be due to a malfunction of the JVC VCR when connected to older ROM revision DST50s.

If I lived in the area where the JVC downconverted an OTA HDTV broadcast, and had one of the JVC decks behaving as described by Gridleak, I'd get the TV station engineering on the phone and enlist their aid in determining if they knew about this, and maybe they'd cease this undesirable effect.


------------------

"With Liberty, HDTV and Justice for all."
Richard Adams

"With Liberty, HDTV and Justice for all."
Richard Adams
Richard Adams is offline  
post #5 of 19 Old 04-02-2001, 09:34 PM
AVS Special Member
 
bb1987's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,172
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I can confirm that by using a JP tape and then inserting a 1080i tape the output on the HD-30000 will be HD. A short on-screen HD message appears. However this does not happen with 720p tapes. I do not believe 720p native ATSC tapes will play in HD on the HD-30000.

Bernhard


bb1987 is offline  
post #6 of 19 Old 04-02-2001, 11:07 PM
Advanced Member
 
tmitchmd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: watsonville,ca
Posts: 926
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Tape of Superbowl 2000 from abc as well as NYPD Blue playback in HD 720p without a problem.
Output must be set to D4, not the D3 default.

"Dammit Jim, I'm a doctor not an engineer."
tmitchmd is offline  
post #7 of 19 Old 04-03-2001, 04:54 AM
AVS Special Member
 
bb1987's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,172
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Yes I have output set to 4D, but I think the 720p output is soft and cannot be set to HD by playing a JP tape first as can be done with 1080i tapes.

Bernhard
bb1987 is offline  
post #8 of 19 Old 04-03-2001, 10:24 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Robert Cobler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Northern California
Posts: 375
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Todd/Bernard:

How to switch D3 and D4?
Robert Cobler is offline  
post #9 of 19 Old 04-03-2001, 04:22 PM
AVS Special Member
 
gridleak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Newport Beach, CA, USA
Posts: 1,219
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Bob,

Li On gave detailed instructions on setting D3/D4 and digital audio in this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/Forum11/HTML/012316.html

Richard,
You wrote:
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">The problem I see with this is that recordings made from over the air stations, in particular NBC as reported by Gridleak, are not playing back in full HD by the JVC deck. This is likely due to a setting made by the NBC affiliate, perhaps inadvertantly.</font>
So far, after recording NBC, CBS, HDHBO (Dish) and HDPPV (Dish), NBC is the only source that fails to play back in HD (without a "starter"). However, I have one other item that acts exactly the same way: the Panasonic HD Demo Tape that was used by Panasonic dealers when they were selling the HD1000/DST50 combo.

If I understand Bob's theory correctly, he suggests that the DH30000 defaults to non-HD display when the source has no 5C flag set. That would say the Leno on NBC and the Panny Demo tape have no flags set. The demo tape might be pre-5C and Leno/NBC may not be concerned about copying.

------------------
- gridleak
...old but not completely grounded.

-Roger
gridleak is offline  
post #10 of 19 Old 04-03-2001, 07:32 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Robert Cobler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Northern California
Posts: 375
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
The for what it's worth department:

I recorded Leno from KRON San Francisco last night on my DST50/HD1000. The tape played perfectly (in HD) on the DH30000. This suggests that local stations get into the act somehow since some people have a problem with Leno, and some don't.

BTW, there was a beautiful production number early in the show with the cast of "Mama Mia", great stuff.

I think there's more to the "SD/HD" story yet to come. Stay tuned.
Robert Cobler is offline  
post #11 of 19 Old 04-04-2001, 11:51 PM
AVS Special Member
 
gridleak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Newport Beach, CA, USA
Posts: 1,219
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Some good news.
I have managed to "lock" my JVC DH30000 into HD display twice now by following a specific procedure. By that I mean that the JVC was no longer sensitive to certain HD recordings that revert to SD display when the tape is stopped and restarted. The JVC returned to its former (undesirable) state when I unplugged the power cord for about 10 minutes.

The procedure was as follows:

1) I recorded "Autumn in NY" from Dish HDPPV using a HD1000.

2) Connecting the HD1000 to the JVC, I then recorded about a minute of the "Autumn" tape from the HD1000 to the JVC with the JVC in STD mode.

3) Rewound both tapes and recorded again from HD1000 to JVC, only this time with the JVC in HS mode.

4) Stopped recording and turned off JVC.

5) Unplugged JVC power cord for 5 seconds.

6) Re-powered the JVC.

At this point my JVC displays HD when playing any HD tape and seems immune attempts to switch it back to degraded display.

I realize this all sounds pretty silly. Probably some of the steps I took are unnecessary. The first time I did this was strictly by accident, including the process of recording in STD mode. The second time I simply repeated everything as closely as I could recall. Now to find a shorter, simpler process...

------------------
- gridleak
...old but not completely grounded.

-Roger
gridleak is offline  
post #12 of 19 Old 04-05-2001, 07:47 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Robert Cobler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Northern California
Posts: 375
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Roger:

My DH30000 seems stuck in HD mode also, however I haven't done any recording with the JVC. All I have been doing is playing various tapes. In most cases I see "SD" appear briefly on startup followed by "FS HD". All the transport controls work normally. Sometimes I see some bold kanji characters appear at startup, I'd guess these are kanji for HD and SD. I'll find out.
Robert Cobler is offline  
post #13 of 19 Old 04-05-2001, 10:17 AM
AVS Special Member
 
gridleak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Newport Beach, CA, USA
Posts: 1,219
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
OK Bob, it's your turn to ride the bull. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif Pull the plug for 10 minutes!

------------------
- gridleak
...old but not completely grounded.

-Roger
gridleak is offline  
post #14 of 19 Old 04-05-2001, 04:37 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Joe Q's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Annapolis,MD
Posts: 3,032
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Robert Cobler:
While most members have been trying to get their JVC HD-30000's to communicate with their DST50/51's, I have been trying to get true HD output from the JVC. I believe the reasons for both problems is the same culprit, copy protection:</font>
Bob,
I am a bit confused here.

You say that 5C MUST be on the tape for it to work. I realize that the DST50 does NOT 'do' 5C so your statement makes sense.

However, I have the DST51 which is supposed to handle the 5C. With all the posts I see in this thread, NO ONE has mentioned the DST51.

Has anyone tried the HD-3000 with a DST51?

If you want, I can make a test recording with my DST51 and HD1000 and send you the tape to see what happens.

Am I missing something here?

Don Landis - you can speak up any time since I know you did a lot of research in the past regarding 5C as it pertains to the DST50 and DST51.

Thanks,
Joe
Joe Q is offline  
post #15 of 19 Old 04-05-2001, 05:14 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Robert Cobler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Northern California
Posts: 375
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Joe:

Let me say right off that a lot of what is being said here is conjecture. Nobobdy knows for sure what's going on. What may be happening with DST51's is a lack of current 5C software. The DST50 seems to have the latest stuff because people sent their 50's to Panasonic to get the blue sparkle problem fixed. Since this was not a problem with 51's, relatively few 51's have been sent back. We don't know for sure if an updated 5C set of PROM's is even available for 51's. If you read the latest posts, you see some people have achieved DH30000 heaven, i.e., everything plays in HD without doing anything. Stay tuned...
Robert Cobler is offline  
post #16 of 19 Old 04-06-2001, 12:32 AM
AVS Special Member
 
gridleak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Newport Beach, CA, USA
Posts: 1,219
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Joe,
I'll summarize things so far:

1) Bob has a DST50, an HD1000, and a DH30000. He records with the HD1000/50. His DH30000 won't record or playback thru the DST50 because it has the wrong firmware version. (correct this if I'm wrong, Bob)

2) I have a DST51a, an HD1000, and a DH30000. I can record with either the HD1000 or the DH30000 using the DST51a. However, I can't play back thru the DST51a. Like Bob, I can only play back tapes in the DH30000 thru its own component output, and that is where we are both experiencing difficulty. Sometimes the DH30000 plays back in HD, and sometimes not.

3) tmitchmd has a DST50 and a DH30000 (and lots of other stuff I'm sure). He just had his DST50 upgraded to the latest firmware version (for a 50). He can not only record with the DH30000/DST50 combo, but also play back thru the 50. I'm jeoulous, because I don't think anybody else can do that yet. The advantage of that is it bypasses the quirky/bug_infested/evil component output circuits of the JVC.

I think all using the JVC will agree that it always produces flawless tapes that play back perfectly in the HD1000.

And last and possibly least, I turned my JVC off last night. Today I found that it had reverted to it's former disgusting self. I am definitely developing a love-hate relationship with this quirky/bug_infested/evil box.

------------------
- gridleak
...old but not completely grounded.

-Roger
gridleak is offline  
post #17 of 19 Old 04-06-2001, 07:30 AM
AVS Special Member
 
h2ofun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: auburn,ca usa
Posts: 3,662
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Okay Roger

Glad I had not order a JVC. I have started taping with my panasonic setup and have to say I love it. Turn the timers on in the DST50 and Dish 5000 and they all come on at the same time and go off when the recording is done. No problems, no hassles.

Keep the info coming. Maybe you guys can find a magic cure http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/redface.gif)

dave
h2ofun is offline  
post #18 of 19 Old 04-06-2001, 11:09 AM
AVS Special Member
 
gridleak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Newport Beach, CA, USA
Posts: 1,219
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hi Dave. Yes, I was a little pixed last night! I guess I'll leave the power on all the time (sorry Gov. Davis) and see if it stays in happy mode.

I'm doing the same as you, the Panny combo works great. "Ghostbusters" this morning. What fun... old movies are new again. Thanks, of course, to the old-timers here who worked this out years ago.

------------------
- gridleak
...old but not completely grounded.

-Roger
gridleak is offline  
post #19 of 19 Old 04-06-2001, 12:09 PM
AVS Special Member
 
h2ofun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: auburn,ca usa
Posts: 3,662
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I set the system up to tape ghostbusters also. My kids have never seen.
Guess I have to start watching one of these days. I really need my 169 mod dtc100 first so I have the RGB output. Still trying to get to work correctly with my component to RGB converter.

Sure wish I could find another HD1000 for a fair price.

dave
h2ofun is offline  
Closed Thread HDTV Recorders

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off