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post #31 of 44 Old 03-29-2001, 04:59 PM
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Glimmie,

You're right, I'm not in the movie business. That being said I have a question for you.

1. RCAI (sp?) used a lawsuit to shut down Napster's activities (almost). 2. The MPAA went after an ISP that maintained a link to the DVD decrpytion code.

Given those examples, I submit that MPAA is willing to do considerablly more than just lobby congress. Why should I not think that they would be willing to go after 169time. If lawsuits worked in the two examples above, why should I not think I could do it again?


As far as "copies floating around" goes, I would hope that if I were a "studio executive" that I would be able to come up with some alternative business models that made those copies moot. I would want to do this becuase I would know that if I didn't change my model, I would be in deep deep trouble, because the copies are going to happen no matter what I do. Indeed, I would be willing to bet that the first company that figures out the new model will make a bunch of money while the others are catching up. I would also submit that they had best figure this out before everyone gets really fat pipes into their houses, because at that point movies are just like MP3 songs.

Mike


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post #32 of 44 Old 03-29-2001, 11:43 PM
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Boy, the ethics of the general public today just knocks me out.
I'm a writer. If someone were to take one of my books and put
it on the net without my permission, I would regard that as worse
than stealing because it would kill me dead so far as making a
living as an artist goes. Ditto for my publisher and ditto for all his employees.

It's theft to take something that doesn't belong to you. All
this crap about the big corporations ripping you off is just that--
pure unadultrated rubbish. It's called Free Enterprise. The other
system is the one they used to use in Russia. Anyway, if the
so called Big Corporations making so much money, why don't you buy
their stock and get rich along with them? Do you have any idea
what it costs to put the work of an artist out there?

I like MP3 music myself. In fact I've got a hard drive with
about 2700 tracks on it and not one of them came from Napster or any
other rip-off joint. I bought every one of those downloads from
eMusic and I paid for them. Why? Because I'm not a crook,
that's why.

Timeshifting, making digital copies of broadcast material for
your own private use, that' fine. But Napster and its look-a-likes
are pure crime. They're even worse than ordinary thieves. They
have facilitated theft on a huge scale and made a million
people into thieves.

It's the kind of "I can get it so it's all right" thinking that
has made Hollywood so paranoid and set the Digital Revolution back
ten years. So grow up and let's get back to the values that
made America great!

Best wishes to honest men. Don

Don
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post #33 of 44 Old 03-30-2001, 10:26 AM
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IMHO the attack (justifiable) on Napster, and the coming problems with books and movies on line are NOT about the artist getting his/her fair share of the pot. The current situation is about the industry trying to come to grips with a new technology. The people that are caught in the middle are the artists, authors, etc. You have a hard time convincing me the the music company CEOs are really concerned about the musicians. Saying that, attacking the distribution method (internet) won't solve the problem. Pandora's box is open, end of story.

Does anyone know how the business costs (per dollar) for the book, music, and DVD businesses? For example (hypothetical CD)

1. Song writer - .05
2. Performer .05
3. Marketing .15
4. Music production .20
5. Cost of CDs ?
6. Inventory ?

I would think that the biggest costs would be in the cost of making millions of CDs, holding that inventory in all of the brick and mortar locations, retail costs for distributing etc. Along with this, I would think that the publishing business has roughly the same issues. The point I'm getting at is this. If the publishing/music/dvd business went to a broadband distribution model (as opposed to brick and mortar), could they reduce costs to the point where its just not worthwhile to bother stealing the product?

Mike

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post #34 of 44 Old 03-30-2001, 12:34 PM
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Hi Tom.

If advocating honesty to the public and fair payment for a
producer of art and entertainment is considered to be self-serving,
then the world is in a far worse state than I thought and we stand
on the edge of the abyss.

I love and support public lending libraries. But they do buy
books to distribute to their patrons, and, in Canada and some other countries, the government compensates writers for the use of their intellectual material in libraries, colleges, schools etc.

In some countries government subsidized agencies compensate
writers for the copying of their work.

Does Napster pay anything for facilitating the distribution
of the work of musicians to its non-paying patrons? I don't think
so. Do libraries kill sales of books in the way Napster kills
sales of music? I don't think so.

The Napster model is death to the artist and the end of art and entertainment as we have known it.

Hi Mike

I'm not against progress. I'm all for a rapid movement into the
Digital Age where information and entertainment is cheap and
readily available in digital form and I believe that new models are
going to be worked out that are fair to all parties. But if you
think all producers are rip-off artists, then in effect you're
saying you prefer the government controlled market and industry
to the free enterprise(but regulated) model (with all its
imperfections) that we've always had.

There is no other choice except the free enterprise model
going about its business and making money and protecting its
assets or the Napster "everything should be free to everyone"
model along with the attendant chaos and rapid disintegration
of the entertainment industry. That model was tried in Russia
for about sixty years and it didn't work at all. In fact it was
about the worst abomination every inflicted on a civilized country.

As I said before, if you think the music and movie entertainment
industries are ripping you off, you're free not to buy or use
their products. Moreover--and here's the greatness of this free
enterprise model--if you really believe you're being ripped off,
you can still buy and enjoy their product and then afterwards
buy their stock and use the rip-off profits therefrom to compensate
yourself from being ripped off. How's that for problem solving?

Cheers, Don



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post #35 of 44 Old 03-30-2001, 01:11 PM
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Don,

I have never even visited Napster, and I do not believe that the music should be free. As far as the producers being rip off artists, if by producers you mean labels, they are. I think that has been established in court that the major labels were / are involved in price fixing for CD's.

I do not believe however that my two choices are government control, or the current model. What I believe is that for the last few decades that the record labels have had us locked into one model where they controlled the market, and consumers had no alternatives except doing without. Now we have an alternative, and the shoe is on the other foot. We can very effectively subvert the controlled market dominated by the major labels. Now its the labels crying about how unfair it all is. I hope they aren't holding their breath waiting for sympathy. Is this fair? No. Is it morally correct? No. Do those to factors matter? No,they don't. Who's going to get screwed while things are being worked out - the authors, artists, etc. Welcome to free enterprise.

What I really hope, is that the music industry will serve as the model for how the system can adapt to the new technologies. Then when eBooks, and fat pipes to the residence become available, most of the issues will have been thrashed out. BTW, any model based on copy protection and attempting to maintain current pricing models is doomed.


Mike
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post #36 of 44 Old 03-30-2001, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by MikeKO:

Glimmie,

You're right, I'm not in the movie business. That being said I have a question for you.

1. RCAI (sp?) used a lawsuit to shut down Napster's activities (almost).

2. The MPAA went after an ISP that maintained a link to the DVD decrpytion code.

Given those examples, I submit that MPAA is willing to do considerablly more than just lobby congress. Why should I not think that they would be willing to go after 169time. If lawsuits worked in the two examples above, why should I not think I could do it again?

Mike

</font>
1) Napster was allowing users to upload copyrighted materal for all to copy. THIS IS CLEARLY ILLEGAL. Now if a non-contract band wats to post their work on Napster understanding that it will become "freeware", that's OK. And that's why Napster was allowed to continue under the restriction that uploads would be filtered.

2&gt; Aiding or publishing information to reverse engineer copy protection schemes is illegal too. Cable companies have also prosecuted people who sell plans to do this.

The MPAA and RIAA were well within their rights to go after these people. They were breaking the law.

But 16x9 is not. They are adding a port to enable recording of free Off Air material for in home use. That's not illegal, the supreme court already said so and you can't appeal that.

If and when the get the DBS recording working again that is not illegal., Provided they don't compromise conditional access. As long as your entitled to receive the signal, you can record it. Now if 16x9 comes out with a mod that allows all channel reception for the basic fee, they would have a big legal problem as well as a criminal problem. All DBS boxes have composite video ans Svideo outputs. Owbers have long since been able to make VHS and even SVHS copies from these boxes. Nobody ever complained about that.

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post #37 of 44 Old 03-30-2001, 02:16 PM
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Hi again Mike.

I think we do want the same thing. It's just
how we get there that perhaps we differ on. In your last post
you mentioned the court case against the major labels. Well,
that's exactly how we fight consumer abuse in the free enterprise
system. There are also other built-in safeguards. Fostering
competition automatically works to keep the producers honest and
the new creations flowing.

What I mean to say is that although it may not be perfect, the
free enterprise model, with law and order applied in all directions,
is the best way to get there. Napster, although it may have played a role in bringing the implications of the Digital Age front
and centre, is alien to our system and not a viable model. It
really does facilitate theft on the largest scale. I mean if I
stood on the street corner and handed out keys to every car in town,
I would be arrested and prosecuted. Napster does the same thing.

Admittedly I may have said too much when I said there were only
two models to choose from--the communist and the free enterprise
model. There are other social democratic models that can work.
We just don't like to think about them here in this bastion of free
enterprise. (Joint bastion. I'm your Canadian cousin.)

Anyway, my final opinion is that the advent of HD-DVD will blow everything wide open and push us rapidly ahead into the full-blown
Digital Age. They (HD-DVDs) will be encrypted in a way similar
to current DVDs--that is, not impregnable--and Hollywood will
discover to its surprise that the vast majority of people
will gladly pay to rent and buy them, just as they do with DVDs
now. Of course some low-life Napster type hacker looking for
cheap publicity will undoubtedly put the crack code on the net,
but he will be vigorously tracked down and prosecuted as he (or she)
should be in a law-abiding society that respects the property
rights of all its citizens, even the rich.

Nice discussion. I'll bow out of it now and let others chime in
if they want to.
Cheers. Don


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post #38 of 44 Old 03-30-2001, 04:52 PM
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Regarding some details posted made since my previous post.

1. Sorry for missing the sale of Universal (twice!). Not sure it overturns my point that companies with hardware and software divisions are using one profit center to support another, and apparently delay the introduction of HD-DVD. The situation looks like it stinks, at least to me.

2. UL is not a requirement for sale of any equipment. Manufacturers like to test to UL standards, but there are other recognized standards bodies. "Violating" UL standards by the end user (or his agent) is not prohibited, but the liability of the manufacturer is greatly diminished (to the point of nullity) thereafter. I expect we'll see UL or CSA marks on commercial HD-DVD equipment.

The FCC has regulatory power, but generally it acts only to prevent the sale of non-compliant products. It's likely 16x9time's product (service) can result in a compliant product, although I don't recall them stating they had tested any product to FCC emissions standards. But what does this have to do with HD-DVDs?

3. The Supreme Court *has* shown its willingness to overturn previous Supreme Court decisions with which it disagrees. This is true not only for the present Court, but also for previous Courts. Technology is only one of the factors that have led to previous reversals. HD-DVDs are not likely to be affected by Fair Use Doctrine as defined in the Betamax decision (I think that's what y'all're talkin' 'bout), unless it becomes economical to make copies of them.

Lastly, sorry if I sound bitchy, but the topic here is "Timeline for HD-DVD?". Would everyone please try to stay on-topic? I'm tired of reading the Napster rehashes. Didn't the Forum admininstrators reserve Home Theater Programming for that stuff?

-yogaman

[This message has been edited by yogaman (edited 03-30-2001).]
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post #39 of 44 Old 03-30-2001, 09:17 PM
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M.Hat -

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Boy, the ethics of the general public today just knocks me out.
I'm a writer. If someone were to take one of my books and put
it on the net without my permission, I would regard that as worse
than stealing because it would kill me dead so far as making a
living as an artist goes. Ditto for my publisher and ditto for all his employees. </font>
At least you are honest in admitting your opinions here are somewhat self serving.

It would also seem that it would therefore be to your advantage if copy machines were only permitted to make very bad copies and if public libraries were converted to PPV, paying royalties.

But from my side of the fence you can probably understand why I wouldn't want that. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif

- Tom

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Good fences make good neighbors... but please build them only on your own property! -- Boycott ALL invasive copy controls.

[This message has been edited by trbarry (edited 03-30-2001).]

Why don't we power our electric cars from greener, cheaper Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactors?

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post #40 of 44 Old 03-31-2001, 06:26 AM
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Legality is immaterial when you have 50 million Napster customers who are also potential voters. The copyright law can and will be changed to reflect the new age. The RIAA knows that they will soon be toast but that won't stop them from hiring every attorney and lobbyist in America to delay the erosion of $20 billion in annual revenue.
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post #41 of 44 Old 04-01-2001, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Lastly, sorry if I sound bitchy, but the topic here is "Timeline for HD-DVD?". Would everyone please try to stay on-topic? I'm tired of reading the Napster rehashes. Didn't the Forum admininstrators reserve Home Theater Programming for that stuff?</font>
Back on topic then, consumer HD-DVD will probably arrive when and if there is a sufficient consumer base owning displays that can accept a protected digital input of some sort.

I'll leave the rest as a exercise to the reader. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif

- Tom

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Good fences make good neighbors... but please build them only on your own property! -- Boycott ALL invasive copy controls.

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post #42 of 44 Old 04-02-2001, 10:04 AM
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I expect to see higher density DVD type media in the computer industry first. Acceptance of new "standards" and willingness to experiment with new storage technologies (that become new standards if they are successful in the marketplace) are much greater than for the home electronics industry.

Sure, if the Movie industry does not want sell pre-recorded content on such a new format, it can probably prevent and delay it for a while. It will only miss out on a valuable market...

My prediction - with the Movie industry's co-operation we could have HD-DVD in less than a year. Without it, we will still have recorable HD-DVD media of some sort in less than 3 years - maybe 2. The storage needs of the computer industry alone will drive such a solution.

I'm an optimist, I know...

Bert

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post #43 of 44 Old 04-04-2001, 11:52 AM
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HD DVD&gt; This whole blue laser deal is interesting to me. When DVD's first came out companies already had HD DVD formats. One interesting demo I saw several years ago was from a start up (that has since been bought out and is who knows where now) to modify the existing laser system to increase capacity by 8 times. How, well, fairly simple. The current CD and DVD standards are essentially 1 bit standards. A laser beam is bounced off a groove and the analog signal is converted to Digital data based on a set of thresholds and CRC's. So this company had a brain storm. Instead of a single threshold to define a simple 1 or 0 bit have 8 thresholds to define 8 different levels of inform. The best part was you could do a couple things here. One, you could use existing pressing equipment with only minor modifications. Two, you could modify existing DVD designs adding only minor modifications that would cost very little to implement. Low cost HD DVD for consumers.

As to where this tech went? Who knows, but rest assured that whatever DVD standard appears, we'll get to pay a tidy price for it the first couple years.

Napster&gt; For the most part I think the court rulings are flawed because the judge doesn't understand how the protocol really works. It's based on how things "appear" to work in the GUI. Napster doesn't contain any copywrited material. It's just a list of files, and what computers (that they don't own) have them. The actual pirating occurs outside of Napster's actual computers. To the same effect I could put the songs on my web or FTP server. Someone could use a search engine to find the songs and download them. But no one is taking Netscape, or Yahoo to court on this. Napsters problem was they packaged all the stuff into one tidy program. You can't go after each Napster User because Betamax V. Universal basically lets consumers pirate what they want as long as no fees are being charged. So while I find taking the music immoral, I also find the courts flawed.

  

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post #44 of 44 Old 04-21-2001, 02:51 AM
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If they want a smooth transition they will make HD-DVD's with the old DVD format on one side and HD on the other side. This will also aid in the transition of HDTV since people will suddenly realize they own a small HD-DVD collection.

Give me a 1080 progressive DVD player.


One more off topic thought: HDTV will really catch on once the HD cams go down in price. I believe this is key.

-Tim




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