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post #1 of 25 Old 04-10-2001, 11:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Please do not send me e-mail asking me to sell copies of movies for money, free, or trade. I do not do this!

Second: Please do not send me e-mail to discuss the general philosophy of trading movies, the fair use act, or your opinion of the US copyright law. I'm not interested in your gratuitous opinion via e-mail. If you have an opinion, present it on the forum, not to me via e-mail.

Third. By way of this announcement, I will cease all e-mail responses to anyone seeking the trade of copyright protected programming.

Fourth- I am activating an e-mail filter that will automatically trash any such e-mail before I even see it so if you feel the need to spend/waste your time writing e-mail that will never be seen except by my pop server then be my guest.

Sorry to have to do this but it has gotten out of hand.



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post #2 of 25 Old 04-11-2001, 08:39 AM
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Don,
I didn't realize you had so many inquiries,I wouldn't have
asked myself if I thought there was a way I could record
the Bruce special myself.I have inquired on this forum numerus
times,on a system to record this with the same answer.
I just purchased a HD 30000 to view one tape with,in the
hopes I could either record it or get someone to record
it for me.I totally understand your position on the subject
and apollogize.


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post #3 of 25 Old 04-11-2001, 10:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Sil- No apologies, please. I have, in the past responded to all inquiries with a short "No, I don't do that as it is a technical violation of the US Copyright law." However, in the past few months, with every premiere movie or special event I get e-mails asking for copies or to send my only copy for $$ etc. Since it is obvious where these inquiries come from I just decided to end the requests with my announcement on this forum. The funny thing is most of the requests come from people whom I have never heard of on this forum, thus the term lurkers.

The laws are real funny on this copy-fair use act issue. It got even stranger in '98 with the passage of the DMA which may not stand if ever it ends up in court as it flies in the face of precedent, the foundation of our legal system.

In the case of receiving direcTV in Canada, I find it strange that you are not one who is receiving this now. While it is not legal for DirecTV to sell you their services in Canada, I don't believe it is against Canadian law for you to receive it. I may not be fully aware of your legal restrictions, however. Likewise, I don't think it is illegal for a US resident to receive Expressvue in the US although their may be some catch22's on this due to the DMA. Once again, Laws here that are not tested in court and intrepretations of the DMA that vary with the reader.

I think if I were in your position, I would investigate the possibilities of receiving DBS in Canada via the legal methods that are in practice in Canada, just as many of our forum members get E-Vue in the US. I personally considered E-vue here but decided against it based on programming offered, not legal issues. I even discovered that one could purchase E -Vue systems with a one shot purchase price and no subscriptions via an agent from legitimate retailers in Canada. Just consider that as a Canadian citizen residing in Canada you are not bound by US law. If you choose to abide by our laws then that is your personal choice.


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post #4 of 25 Old 04-11-2001, 11:30 AM
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Don,
Actually it's the Canadian gov. that makes it illegal for
Canadians to view anything other than CRTC(Canadian Radio-Television
and Telecommunications Commision)approved progamming.This is our
version of big brother.

In all fairness they haven't convicted anyone of having them,
but having a business to run I don't need that kind of publicity.

I guess evryone goes to someone like you for this because your
very knowledgeable and helpful.

Thanks Sil
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post #5 of 25 Old 04-11-2001, 01:23 PM
 
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Don,

I am innocennent of all charges.I emailed you a long time ago(last year) and respected your decision.You may want to consider removing your name from the hd1000 group.Also Don,by being a member,you automatically get trade offers.

TO any traders:

Feel free to PM me.I will gladly trade.Trading tapes is a cultural enrichment!!!
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post #6 of 25 Old 04-11-2001, 02:29 PM
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Rodmanbra

Email me at pepemillwork@yahoo.com I'm sure
we can work something out.

Sil
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post #7 of 25 Old 04-12-2001, 08:12 AM
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rodmanbra, I sent you a PM.

HD Media Keen Videosaurus
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post #8 of 25 Old 04-12-2001, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">The laws are real funny on this copy-fair use act issue. It got even stranger in '98 with the passage of the DMA which may not stand if ever it ends up in court as it flies in the face of precedent, the foundation of our legal system. </font>
Don -

Actually, it got even funnier this week. See The Register article
EU sanctifies copyrights Ã* la DMCA. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/frown.gif

- Tom


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This sentience has tree errors.

[This message has been edited by trbarry (edited 04-12-2001).]

Why don't we power our electric cars from greener, cheaper
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Tom Barry - Find my video filters at
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post #9 of 25 Old 04-12-2001, 03:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Right, Tom-

I predict that ,if we don't soon outlaw lawyers, everyone of us will be outlaws, and everything we do will be outlawed.

Mine for the day!


The first error is the spelling of the word sentence
The second error is the spelling of the word three.
And the final error is that the sentence only has two errors.

How's that?

Hello rodman- How you been? I thought adelphis cable did you in I haven't heard from you in so long.
Anyway, sil, glad you hooked up with old buddy rodmanbra, probably a match made in HDTV heaven.



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post #10 of 25 Old 04-14-2001, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sil:
Don,
Actually it's the Canadian gov. that makes it illegal for
Canadians to view anything other than CRTC(Canadian Radio-Television
and Telecommunications Commision)approved progamming.This is our
version of big brother.

In all fairness they haven't convicted anyone of having them,
but having a business to run I don't need that kind of publicity.

I guess evryone goes to someone like you for this because your
very knowledgeable and helpful.

Thanks Sil
</font>
The last time I heard about a government making it illegal for their citizens to receive any broadcasting from foreign countries was Nazi Germany in World War II. The punishment could range from concentration camp to death.

I thought Canada was a democratic country where citizens are free to chose what they wish to watch??? I guess not.


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post #11 of 25 Old 04-15-2001, 01:18 AM - Thread Starter
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bernhard-

In more recent times, All Eastern block countries' citizens were barred from receiving foreign signals. The Geneva Convention guarantees as human rights freedom to receive all forms of electromagnetic waves. Until recently, the FCC also guaranteed the citizens these same rights under the Geneva Convention. However, in recent years these rights have reverted to what was once in Eastern European countries and considered by us in the western world as inhumane. And, even in some states, state law has additionally restricted these basic human rights to the airwaves reception. eg. Radar detectors use in Virginia will subject you to cruel and unusual punishment if caught receiving a radar signal. You can be thrown in prison for an unusual length of time and have all your posessions and vehicle confiscated. Some local communities have even passed ordinances that forbid you to listen to a fire and police scanner in the privacy of your home.
It may be true that Canada has these laws and selectively enforces them, but so does the USA. The Geneva Convention has been trashed by the very governments that adopted it originally.

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post #12 of 25 Old 04-15-2001, 07:19 AM
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Bernhard,

Maybe I can explain the Canadian situation a little.The CRTC's
job is to protect this little country from being overpowered by
U.S. content.If they weren't in place there wouldn't be a market
for Canadian producers work,most Canadian's would watch American
programming.This is actually a good thing for Canadian's (as is
our softwood lumber deal and other items we don't need to review).

The satellite industry isn't imune to these rules.We have two sat.
providers in Canada and both are fighting for a tiny market,with
the same costs as their brothers to the south.They can't afford
to offer the same amount of programming the big boys do,so they
lobby the CRTC to make it illegal to subscribe to U.S. based sat.
providers.

This causes a problem for me because there is no way to record
the HDTV programming they offer(even though it's from the U.S.)
because of the equipment they use.


Love'em or hate'em they're here,hopefully not for long since
they've outlived their usefulness(thank God for the internet,
we just need unlimited bandwidth).


Hope this helps Sil
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post #13 of 25 Old 04-15-2001, 07:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Sil-

Thanks for your explanation. It addresses the issue of US DBS selling subs in Canada. But, does it also make it illegal for you to watch these signals? Do you understand the difference in what I'm asking?

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post #14 of 25 Old 04-15-2001, 09:45 PM
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"I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on TV..."

With that in mind, here's what I learned from my research: It is not illegal in the US to receive & view sat signal from other countries.

It is illegal for a sat provider in both countries to knowingly sell their service to anyone outside of their own country.

There have been no (zero, zip, zilch) incidents of Canadian authorities (local or national) prosecuting individual citizens for receiving US DBS services, even though the CTRC prohibits this.

Currently, there is a case (filed by a Canadian grey market DBS company) in front of the Canadian court system, challenging the law preventing Canadian citizens from getting DBS programing from the US. The initial ruling agreed with the challenge & Bell ExpressVu has file an appeal, which is in process at this time.

This is where the term "grey market" comes into play for DBS services. A whole structure is in place to obtain equipment & programing from the other side of the border, no matter which side your on to start with.

In Canada, the CTRC does restrict what the two small dish providers can offer, as Sil explains. But in the US, there are numerous examples of cable companies carrying the Canadian stations available via OTA, like in Detroit, where the CBC (Hockey Night In Canada, eh! Flat out the best TV hockey coverage on the planet.) is available on every cable system in the metro area. Another example of Canadian programing available in the US is on DirecTV with MuchMusic, Trio & CBC Newsworld all coming from Canada. I don't know if other Canadian programing is prohibited, or just not of interest to Dish & DirecTV.

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[This message has been edited by Ken H (edited 04-16-2001).]

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post #15 of 25 Old 04-16-2001, 10:33 AM
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Don,

Not sure if I understand your question,I'm not a lawyer.The
CRTC's mandate is for programming of legally recieved broadcasts.
They don't have anything to do with hardware,if someone decides
to buy hardware to recieve programming in an illegal way(smart
cards) they don't get involved,sounds rediculous I know.


Ken,

Like I said the CRTC has had it's place, HNIC wouldn't be around
if it wasn't for the CRTC.However they are also responsible for
MTV not being able to get into the Canadian market(the only country
I know of that can't recieve MTV).They basically contol everything
we are allowed to watch and listen to.


Sil
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post #16 of 25 Old 04-16-2001, 08:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Ken covered it pretty well, but simply put, There is a big difference in whether you can be arrested for viewing another countries broadcast and whether a foreign country's DBS can be legally sold to you. So, what I am asking is, Are you permitted to view American DBS legally? Forget that it is subscription TV in the USA. And I understand that US DBS companies are not permitted to sell subscriptions to Canadian citizens living in Canada. If you HAD a system that worked, and set it up in Canada, could you be arrested for viewing it in the privacy of your home, by Canadian authorities?

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post #17 of 25 Old 04-16-2001, 09:06 PM
 
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Because i am a nice person...and i care:

I will snap my fingers and help Don.So far i only got three lurkers...I get more silly telemarketers per hr!!So keep it coming.PM me!In this way,you also help Don be completely stress free.
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post #18 of 25 Old 04-16-2001, 09:50 PM
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"If you HAD a (US) system that worked, and set it up in Canada, could you be arrested for viewing it in the privacy of your home, by Canadian authorities?"

Don,

I'm about 99% sure the answer to your question is yes. I am getting additional information on this topic and will post it here, when available.

But I will also stand by my earlier post:
"There have been no (zero, zip, zilch) incidents of Canadian authorities (local or national) prosecuting individual citizens for receiving US DBS services, even though the CTRC prohibits this."

And Sil essentially posted the same thing:
"Actually it's the Canadian gov. that makes it illegal for
Canadians to view anything other than CRTC(Canadian Radio-Television
and Telecommunications Commission)approved progamming.This is our
version of big brother.
In all fairness they haven't convicted anyone of having them,
but having a business to run I don't need that kind of publicity."


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[This message has been edited by Ken H (edited 04-17-2001).]

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post #19 of 25 Old 04-17-2001, 11:27 AM
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The main issue of confusion is that different courts in different provinces have ruled differently. Some say 'grey market' is legal, others do not.

In one case (In Edmonton, Alberta I believe) it was ruled that, although it is illegal for DirecTV to sell you thier service, it is not illegal to own it. If you go 'grey market' (which means setting up a US PO box and credit card), DirecTV can then claim that there is no way to know if you are Canadian and get reasonable deniability.

At any rate, I agree that you wont ever find police knocking on your door to take away your dish. If you are super-concerned, just get a Starchoice dish to use with your US box.

Andy K.
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post #20 of 25 Old 04-17-2001, 10:09 PM
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I did some research, and found that Canada is conflicted as to whether or not it is illegal to receive foreign DBS signals.

It appears that to the Canadian court system, the law only refers to CRTC licensed Canadian DBS systems and the fact that it's illegal to receive them without paying for them.

A few Canadian companies (like Bell ExpressVu) have held that the law restricts Canadians from receiving any DBS service not licensed by the CRTC. This would mean the US DBS systems would be illegal. This position has been rejected in a number of Canadian courts, but it appears the issue is not settled as yet, because the CRTC shares the ExpressVu position.

The Canadian courts also seem to say that because the existing law does not refer to foreign DBS reception, as long as the equipment is brought into the country legally (paid for), and the programing obtained legally(paid for), that it's not an illegal act to receive foreign DBS signals.

Again, no reference could be found regarding any instance of an individual being prosecuted for receiving foreign DBS signals. They only go after the Canadian companies that sell the equipment, so far without success.

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post #21 of 25 Old 04-19-2001, 04:35 PM - Thread Starter
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&gt;&gt;A few Canadian companies (like Bell ExpressVu) have held that the law restricts Canadians from receiving any DBS service not licensed by the CRTC

Yes, and my company holds that it is illegal for anyone to disagree with me.
OK, I was just poking fun at the logic behind the concept that a private company makes up it's own law. I do believe that the courts are correct in that the law is specific. I don't see a conflict at all if your research is correct. Kinda like out copyright fair use act here in the USA. It is rather specific but many people want to make up all sorts of reading between the lines and it has never been held up in court. I don't know about Canada but the FCC in the US does not make law. They do set regulations which are enforceable but these have to have foundation in law that is enacted by congress under our procedure of bill to law. It must be similar in Canada. Can the CRTC overrule the courts in Canada? What is their check and balance system? My guess is that there is good reason why Canadians can watch US DBS and not end up in Jail. They simply are not breaking any laws. The same goes for US citizens viewing E-Vue but in the case of the US we may have a conflict in the DMA. It would be interesting to see how that would hold up considering the DMA may be found to overturn prior rights under the Geneva Convention which the US is a signatory. I don't believe the DMA has been tested in the courts yet. Anyone know of a case?


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post #22 of 25 Old 05-11-2001, 11:53 AM
 
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Hey Don:

Are you now stress free?I only got three lurkers.Feel free to pass them to me.I will deal with any of Don's deadbeats.The funny thing is that some of them do not have recorders.

To the "lurkers":

PM me.I will be very polite unless you <u>do not</u> have to panny/JVC combo!!

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post #23 of 25 Old 05-12-2001, 07:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Yep! No more, not even one, since this thread. Good of you to bump it to the top again as a reminder that you want people to bug you to buy/trade your HDTV recordings and that I don't.

Please, everybody, especially those of you who never post to this forum. Send some e-mail to rodmanbra. He seems lonely. Send him e-mail even if you don't want any of his recordings but just to let him know that. he he.

I also noticed that no one will take you up on your offer to give them a Panny recording setup for the escrow and tapes of shows. Seems like a good deal to me so it must be something else that scares potential takers away.

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post #24 of 25 Old 05-13-2001, 11:03 PM
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Looks like Ken got it right. Although the issue is in the courts for some dbs resellers. Evu and the RCMP would like you believe otherwise. If this is the case what about those BUDs (c and KU band). Is it illegal to use those? Well no. It is a political and big corporate control thing all having to do with $$$$.



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post #25 of 25 Old 05-16-2001, 08:12 AM
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Andrew, Ken et al,

The issue re: Canadian reception of foreign signals is one of distribution and enabling reception, not reception itself.

It isn't, nor has it ever been, illegal for an individual to receive a foreign signal. I don't even think BEV, the RCMP or the CRTC are pushing for that kind of legislature, or even inferring this.

The situation is that certain Canadian companies have paid for the domestic distribution/exhibition rights of content for all of Canada, and have built businesses and business models around the advertiser or subscription fees associated with this content. If a vendor openly sells equipment in Canada that allows Canadians to view content from a foreign rights holder -- the Canadian holder (channels/networks represented by the CRTC) is naturally going to go after them because it devalues their investment (which is protected by law).

This isn't about going after the consumer for something they are doing wrong -- it's about going after vendors who are openly selling goods which contravene legally-supported protection of purchased domestic rights for content. If they didn't make an effort to go after these vendors, there would effectively be no protection for Canadian rights holders, and therefore really no such thing as domestic rights.

BTW, different people holding rights to material in different countries is what is keeping a lot of content off of the Internet as well: There is no way to control or determine who in which country is able view what content.

This is also why Canadian feeds are substituted for U.S. network feeds on Canadian cable systems and satellite services: The Canadian channel has paid for the rights to the material in Canada, and should gain the benefit of the advertising.

This is all pretty straightforward. Regulatory bodies and law enforcement agencies aren't now, have not been, nor ever likely will be interested in going after the consumer/end-user. Legislature and legal precedents aren't murky or confusing in this regard. It's also not some kind of big business conspiracy.

Ask yourself this: If you paid a LOT of money for a Burger King franchise that, in it's contract, stated specifically that you were the only Burger King store permitted to operate in that area -- wouldn't you be pissed if you woke up one morning and there was another Burger King across the street? You'd probably be pissed enough to pursue it in the courts, if necessary. You wouldn't, however, try to have Joe Consumer arrested for walking into the other store to buy a burger.

So, once again - the consumer with a grey-market dish has nothing to fear from the RCMP or CRTC or BEV or *Choice. Companies selling systems to Canadians are the target.

(Just so we're clear, I'm not defending anything one way or another -- just clarifying exactly the way things are and why they are the way they are. A lot of people are confused, or like to spread "Urban Legends" around this issue, and -- as I said -- it's all pretty straightforward).

Steve R

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