HD Recording -- issues roundup? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 21 Old 04-30-2001, 04:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Is there a decent article somewhere about the current state of affairs regarding the ability to record and play back HD material?

I have DTV with HBOHD, but since the programs are time-shifted early for me, there are many shows I can't watch with my kids around (e.g., Sopranos), so i miss a lot of stuff.

I'm curious what my options are for taping.

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post #2 of 21 Old 05-01-2001, 11:53 AM
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The PV-HD1000/TU-DST50(51)/Dish5000/modulator combo is the only currently available technique to digitally tape record HD from off-air and the Dish Network. All four of these devices are discontinued, so finding them is the problem. They can often be found on Ebay, but they command high prices. They occasionally appear in the Classified section here.

There is no currently available digital method to tape DirecTV HD channels.

http://www.169time.com/ offers the promise of recording DirecTV and OTA via a modified DTC100 combined with various recorders. Only beta versions of the product have been seen at this point, and their ability to fill any orders is now in question.

HTPC techniques allow time-shifting of off-air HD broadcasts, and can be combined with the above mentioned Dish5000/modulator to time shift Dish Network HD channels. See the Home Theater Computer section for info on that.

There is a JVC W-VHS machine that can make analogue HD recordings that are close to digital quality. Price is around $5k and tapes are expensive.

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post #3 of 21 Old 05-02-2001, 07:27 AM
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gridleak-
An excellent summary of the current state of affairs.

I would add that JVC has also released their DVHS VCR that has been tested and works but must be purchased through grey good dealers in this country as it is not available from bonafied JVC dealers. Also, note that the WVHS VCR mentioned is quite a nice machine with excellent video quality equal to the RGB analog outputs from your source, however the audio is also restricted to analog stereo from the HiFi tracks similar to what we get from any 4 head HiFi stereo VHS VCR.

For Jefster- The best source of information on the current state of affairs with HDTV recording is right here. No Magazine article I have heard of addresses all the issues like these threads. You've found it!

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post #4 of 21 Old 05-02-2001, 07:59 AM
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Just to keep you from having to scour through the HTPC forum - the AccessDTV card now works flawlessly with the 5000/Modulator combo if you are interested in timeshifting. The card also has a pretty good OTA tuner built in and ships with a silver sensor antenna.

The other card, the Hi-Pix from Teleman, has never worked perfectly with the above setup and has been backordered for months now. But you can find these cards cheap in the classifieds as more users are moving to the AccessDTV card.

Hope that helps.

Tom

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post #5 of 21 Old 05-02-2001, 10:01 AM
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Don, you mean that there is an American D-VHS unit from JVC available?

I don't know how you got that from "JVC available from a gre6y goods dealer" but let me explain as you seem confused, maybe by terminology- First of all JVC is Japanese Victor Corporation. They make a DVHSVCR "HM-DH30000" that is sold in Japan, Korea etc. Japan uses the NTSC video standard and the same AC power we do in the USA. Therefore, a product that is sold for the Japanese market may function here in the USA. To buy one you would need to go to Japan and bring one back. However, the USA has dealers that are dealing in what are called "grey goods." Grey goods are not illegal product. You cannot be arrested and thrown in prison for having one. However, a JVC authorized dealer is by contract not permitted to deal in JVC grey goods or he may lose his dealership. This JVC DVHS VCR has been tested by people both in Japan and the USA and found to work with certain limitations that are well documented by posters in this forum. If you need anymore info, please consult those threads that discuss these compatibilities. Owners of the HMDH30000 may also assist you in finding a grey goods dealer for the VCR. I have no information on dealers.

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post #6 of 21 Old 05-02-2001, 10:14 AM - Thread Starter
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It sounds like most of the options available are for OTA (can't get it) or Dish Network (don't have it) or DTV with a DTC1000 (I have a mits STB), so I am SOL unless I want to add a pc card, andopther DTV HD receiver, and an HTPC.

Man, HDTV is a harsh mistress...

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post #7 of 21 Old 05-02-2001, 01:56 PM
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I believe previous posts have stated that the PV-HD1000 and TU-DST50/51 will record from the Dish 5000 with the HDTV modulator. So does this mean you can record satellite high definiton contents off the dish network- i.e. HBO-HD, Showtime-HD? If this is the case how does the TU-DST50/51 connect to the DISH 5000 system? Thank you.
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post #8 of 21 Old 05-02-2001, 02:05 PM
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Don-
Thanks for your comment.

Everyone-
Regarding the grey market DH30000: mine recently went belly up (iLink problem) and I have handed it over to a local JVC service center. I provided them with a sample tape, iLink cable, remote, a translation for the remote, and 110 to 100 volt xfmr. They have shipped it to a central location for analysis. Conversations with them indicate that they have limited experience with this type of stuff, but they will make a valiant attempt at repair. Hopefully they will get help from Japan. The warrantee does not apply here, so repair will be out of pocket. I'll keep everyone posted on the progress.

BTW, now that I'm without the JVC, what I miss most is the ability to assemble edit using another DVHS as a source. I have several HD1000's but editing with them is next to impossible.
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post #9 of 21 Old 05-02-2001, 03:01 PM
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The Dish 5000 HD Modulator has a RF output that carries the 8VSB signal, into the RF input of any DTV tuner. The Panasonic TU-DST50/51 also can send the digital signal to the PV-HD1000 for recording via a IEEE1394 connection.

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post #10 of 21 Old 05-02-2001, 06:58 PM
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As of the latest (mid-March) software posted by Telemann, recording HBO and SHO from the Dish 5000/modulator combo has been working flawlessly for me. Also, the problems with lockups, etc. are almost non-existent for my set-up.

As to when or if they will begin shipping product again, your guess is as good as mine.

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post #11 of 21 Old 05-03-2001, 06:54 AM
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I've also had good success with recording both OTA and DISH content with the HiPix. The only issue I have with this option is the lack of a reasonable solution to archive the content to removeable media. Right now it is really only useful for timeshifting.

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post #12 of 21 Old 05-03-2001, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Buddy_Yaussy:
I've also had good success with recording both OTA and DISH content with the HiPix. The only issue I have with this option is the lack of a reasonable solution to archive the content to removeable media. Right now it is really only useful for timeshifting.

</font>
That is a HUGE issue and the main reason why I have never considered PC cards.

It would cost me a forture to store my 350 D-VHS tapes, each of wich holds an average of about 30 Gigs on hard drives or removable tape drives.

Doing some math I come up with needing 9 Tarabites of storage for my present library.

I am sure this can be done but at what cost?

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post #13 of 21 Old 05-03-2001, 03:50 PM
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The PC cards were built, IMO, with "timeshifting" in mind - not archiving. So you are correct, it would cost a small fortune to use these cards to build a library of HD content.

Tom
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post #14 of 21 Old 05-03-2001, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by tommyboy2:
The PC cards were built, IMO, with "timeshifting" in mind - not archiving. So you are correct, it would cost a small fortune to use these cards to build a library of HD content.

Tom
</font>
Plus if you use tape drives you have the added hassle of restoring your backup to the hard disk which will probably take at least an hour for a movie, before you can play the movie.

Bernhard


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post #15 of 21 Old 05-04-2001, 06:13 AM
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With the new DVD-R drives out recently, such as the SuperDrive that ships with the new Macintosh G4, this is looking more and more feasible. The media goes for about $8 per disc, and works in a quite large number of stand-alone DVD players.

The trick is to get the file size down enough to fit a movie on one or two DVDs, with acceptable levels of loss from the compression...

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post #16 of 21 Old 05-04-2001, 10:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Is any noticeable level of loss "acceptable?" It seems to me that the reason people are trying to archive HD content is that it's so good.

To have to accept a lossy system -- even if superior to current technology a la VHS -- seems unlikely to gain a toe-hold in the early-adopter niche.

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post #17 of 21 Old 05-04-2001, 02:50 PM
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I guess the idea is to end up somewhat better than DVD quality, and to get as close to HDTV as possible within certain size constraints. For example, compare a photograph stored as a .bmp with the same photograph stored as a 90% .jpg file. You probably wouldn't be able to tell them apart visually, but their file sizes would be radically different.

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post #18 of 21 Old 05-06-2001, 10:18 AM
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FYI, Please check link to Home Theater Spot,
Mitsubishi annoucment of intergated HDTV with Firewire and New D-VHS VCR.
http://www.***************.com/cgi-b...&f=10&t=003952

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post #19 of 21 Old 05-09-2001, 11:45 AM - Thread Starter
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This looks great, since I have a Mits 65907 and the Mits STB, but it sounds like I'll need the sub-$1K firewire module to use it. (From the sound of things, if that module -- is it the "promise module" I keep hearing about? -- doesn't include HAVI and a DTV tuner, then I still can't use the recorder.)

Oops, looking back at the Mits promise news release, it seems pretty clear that the promise module will have those features:

Quote:
This upgrade module will enable any Mitsubishi HD-Upgradeable television (a television which can be upgraded to full HDTV performance with the addition of a separate digital receiver) to receive over-the-air digital television broadcasts, including high-definition, as well as unscrambled cable TV. In addition, this module will also have an IEEE 1394 interface, copy protection, and Home Audio Video Interoperability (HAVi) software capability for control of IEEE 1394 digital devices.
(Seemed to me that it'd have to, or Mits would get flamed.)

This is an exciting time... now I only have to wait... http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/frown.gif

-- jas


[This message has been edited by jeffster (edited 05-09-2001).]

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post #20 of 21 Old 05-17-2001, 09:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by bb1987:
Plus if you use tape drives you have the added hassle of restoring your backup to the hard disk which will probably take at least an hour for a movie, before you can play the movie.

Bernhard

Well thats how PBS does it. Odetics TSC-90 tape machines archive the programs and a few hours before air time they load into the HP MediaStream server farm for transmission at the appropriate time.



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post #21 of 21 Old 05-19-2001, 05:24 PM
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If kromkamp is successful, the archiving of HDTV to tape will not be as onerous as has been suggested. See this thread .

In it and the previous thread , Andy K gives us progress reports on his efforts to use DV camcorders for backing up files by spoofing the data to fit into DV video frames. It is expected that there may be occasional dropouts, but testers so far have reported almost none.

The media cost seems to be around $4 per tape which can hold around 90 (or is it 120?) minutes of raw ATSC data (19.4 Mbps). Yes, the camcorder will set you back $400-600 or so, but that's breakeven after only 30-odd hours or so of proramming!

The neatest part of the project is still in the future, but Andy hopes to be able to buffer enough data via the firewire interface to be able to play back the transport stream only a minute or so behind the time it arrives from the drive. So far, beta testing shows good compatibility with most camcorder types except Canon.

I am salivating profusely at the prospect. I'm even shopping for a DV camcorder now. And I'll get a video camera for free! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif )

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