What happened to JVC pre-recorded HD? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 23 Old 08-01-2001, 05:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Has anybody some news about the pre-recorded D-VHS HD tapes JVC wanted to launch this summer?

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post #2 of 23 Old 08-01-2001, 10:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by robena:
Has anybody some news about the pre-recorded D-VHS HD tapes JVC wanted to launch this summer?
Probably gone the way of the HD D-VHS VCR; delayed a little. I heard from my GoodGuys rep that the JVC VCR will be available early September, about the same time as the Mits; Once both of these machine are available I bet there'll be a widespread in-store promo's for the VCR and touting the availability of pre-recorded tapes. Should be an interesting time this fall with many new HD options becoming available.

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post #3 of 23 Old 08-02-2001, 05:41 AM
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I do not have a very positive feeling about prerecorded content at this time. When I was in Japan I was looking all over Akibahara for prerecorded HD content and there was none, and there is none coming from what everyone said.

Since D-VHS decks are being sold in masses in Japan, I had thought prerecorded content should be available.

If this is an indicator, don't expect any prerecorded content any time soon here after the decks are introduced.

Of course if the decks in the U.S. will not be able to record satellite based premium content, as they do in Japan, then the only way JVC and Mits can hope to successfully market them is with prerecored content being available.

Bernhard

[This message has been edited by bb1987 (edited 08-02-2001).]
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post #4 of 23 Old 08-02-2001, 03:59 PM
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Bernhard

Premium content here appears to be copy protected. I have all the Japanese HDTV gear except for the DVHS recorder (still have to sell my US DISH/panny combo before I can afford one) and I found several references to Wowwow (the Japanese equivalent to HBO) being copy protected when the content provider requested it. I hope that is not often; I hope to have first hand experience soon.

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post #5 of 23 Old 08-02-2001, 07:19 PM
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The wowow movies are not totally copy protected. They allow copy once. However when you try to make a copy of a copy it won't work. This type of copy protection is certainly something I can live with.

The good thing about the service is that similar to HBO, the movies are shown many times....

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post #6 of 23 Old 08-02-2001, 07:42 PM
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Milton

I would suggest you keep the Panny HD 1000 because this way you can dub movies, even BS tapes between it and a japanese D-VHS vcr.

Bernhard
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post #7 of 23 Old 08-02-2001, 08:13 PM
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Bernhard

I agree with you that I can live with copy once copy protection. I have two of the Panny combos and am definitely keeping one set (I may be moving back to the states sooner than I had planned because getting good special needs education for my autistic son after preschool does not look very promising). Thanks for the advice and information.

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post #8 of 23 Old 08-03-2001, 11:55 AM
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Any of you know how i may order these pre-recorded D-VHS movies for my Panasonic PV-HD1000??

I can no longer record any since my cable provider, TWC, has ended broadcasting HBO in 8VSB.
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post #9 of 23 Old 08-03-2001, 12:35 PM - Thread Starter
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That's the problem Paul, JVC announced them for this summer, but there is nothing yet.

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post #10 of 23 Old 08-03-2001, 01:10 PM
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The wait is pure agony!

Anyone who has tasted the D-VHS recordings knows just how much better it is versus DVD's. There is no comparison!
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post #11 of 23 Old 08-04-2001, 02:05 AM - Thread Starter
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ATSC movies are broadcasted using a paltry 11 Mb/s rate, barely better than DVD, and often decompressed and re-compressed 3 times for local editing needs. I hope that JVC tapes will use the full 28 Mb/s D-VHS capability. THAT should be something clearly superior to DVD.

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post #12 of 23 Old 08-04-2001, 07:03 AM
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19.2 Mbps, not 11. And at least on HBO/Showtime, you have no need to edit in commercials.

The downside is that there is evidence to suggest that even on HBO, the whole bandwidth is not being used. Its quite informal, but with DVSpoof you can 'see' the data in the camcorder window. You will find with some HBO movies large portions of the window are grey, meaning no data in them.

A good example is Gladiator. However, the Gladiator PPV seems to have a higher bitrate, there isnt as much grey area and the image is better.

Andy K.


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post #13 of 23 Old 08-04-2001, 08:30 AM
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I own a video software store and haven't heard a peep outta JVC in the trades regarding HD tapes though I think it makes perfect sense for them to try to push them.

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post #14 of 23 Old 08-04-2001, 12:03 PM
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HBO uses ~14.3 Mbps for HD movies.

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post #15 of 23 Old 08-04-2001, 09:16 PM
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Are DVHS movies available in Europe or Japan?
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post #16 of 23 Old 08-04-2001, 09:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
19.2 Mbps, not 11. And at least on HBO/Showtime, you have no need to edit in commercials.
The 11 Mb/s number was disclosed in this forum by a guy working at HBO. I don't remember the precise thread though. Sports events use more bandwidth, up to 17 Mb/s.
Quote:
Are DVHS movies available in Europe?
Are you kidding? They don't even know what HD is here (I live in France)!

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post #17 of 23 Old 08-06-2001, 07:53 PM
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I would be extremely surprised to see any prerecorded D-VHS tapes make their way to market. All the shipping D-VHS decks have analog HD component video outputs, making D-VHS (and W-VHS for that matter) forever a non-copy-protectable media. Publication of prerecorded tapes in that form has no less theft potential than broadcasting high value content to the current STBs without copy protection, which the studios aren't willing to do for much longer.

A new, encrypted version of D-VHS can be imagined (maybe called SD-VHS), whose decks would have 1394/DTCP in/out connectors and DVI/HDCP outputs, as well, perhaps, as HD analog component outputs, for support of older monitors. Hopefully only the newest Hollywood movies will be copy-protected, and you could use the decks to time-shift non-copy-protected stuff for display on current monitors in full HD resolution and to display copy-protected stuff down-res'd, until you chose to buy a copy-protected monitor.

It seems to me that a system for playing true copy-protected prerecorded HD media will be ugly. Since one assumes that these programs will be encrypted with keys unknown to your system, the players will have to call up a key server, authenticate themselves, establish a secure connection, identify the particular copy of the particular recording that they're trying to play and retrieve the key necessary for decrypting it. Shades of DivX, only worse: DivX only made one phone call a month; this would require a call every time you changed discs. Something similar currently goes on for impulse pay-per-view in satellite and cable, but the back-channel there is typically built-in, though some systems use phone lines (DirectTV does, doesn't it?). The thing is that, like with DivX, if you use phone lines to verify access to impulse pay-per-view (or access to the system at all), you need only make occasional late night calls to tell the headend about usage; if the user unplugs his phone, the box fairly quickly disables itself and little is lost.

Personally, if my player was going to do this, I'd want it to come with a broadband connector so I could hook it up to my home LAN and not have use my phone line. Kenwood is making a high-end CD changer that can be connected in this fashion to access CDDB servers to obtain titles for discs and tracks (actually, the Kenwood changer uses a simple serial link to the PC, which would probably do in this case also, though I'd want it to be USB; however, a broadband connector could be hooked to a router and thus not require my PC to be booted up).

Can anyone else see a way to securely encrypt prerecorded HD media without requiring a check-in for every play? Nothing would stop a player from recording serial numbers and keys (requiring a unique serial number and key for every copy), and maybe they even should. That way, people's players could get to know the keys for decrypting their private library and not have to look them up every time. Flash memory is pretty cheap.

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post #18 of 23 Old 08-07-2001, 01:35 PM
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Re copying Japanese BS tapes:

I tried dubbing Japanese BS satellite 'copy once' tapes with a pair of HD1000's: It doesn't work! As soon as one machine goes into record mode, both machines stop and display 'CP', i.e., "copy protected". Bummer...
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post #19 of 23 Old 08-07-2001, 07:11 PM
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Robert,

Set up with a hub as explained in the "viewing while copying" thread. It should work because the playback machine is communicating with the STB and just playing back; and the recording machine is "invisibly" snooping the bitstream. I'd try it but I don't have any BS tapes.

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post #20 of 23 Old 08-07-2001, 09:10 PM
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Bob,

I already tried numerous combinations of VCRs (demo HD1000 to consumer HD1000, Victor HM-DH30000 etc.) using the Firewire hub to 'snoop' the stream. None of the techniques worked; each time I got the 'CP' indicator (or Japanese characters in the case of the Victor deck). The copy protection is embedded in the transport stream. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/frown.gif
In most of my setups the decks would not shutdown but continue to record/play, but no picture would turn out on the tape I was trying to record to. Perhaps the 'copy once' BS tapes you had were already copied once. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

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post #21 of 23 Old 08-07-2001, 10:37 PM
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Dylan,

While you were attempting to copy with the "snooping vcr" was the bitstream from the source (the BS playback machine) being successfully displayed by the STB?


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post #22 of 23 Old 08-08-2001, 04:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by dahester:
Bob,

Perhaps the 'copy once' BS tapes you had were already copied once. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

-Dylan
Dylan

Copy once does not mean the tape can be copied once. It means the broadcast can be copied once on a tape. The tape cannot be copied at all.

Bernhard


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post #23 of 23 Old 08-08-2001, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by bb1987:
Dylan

Copy once does not mean the tape can be copied once. It means the broadcast can be copied once on a tape. The tape cannot be copied at all.

Bernhard

Bernhard,

I figured my verbage would be misinterpreted there. I understand that the copy protection scheme is similar to SCMS: a copy of the original broadcast/recording is possible, but copies of copies are forbidden... Also, 5C supports other settings like 'copy always' and 'copy never' (i.e. you can't even tape the original broadcast/recording).

gridleak,

In the case where a Japanese BS tape was played by the PV-HD1000, the TU-DST50 would not display a picture. The Victor DH30000 'snooping' the stream would show a picture, however. When I substituted a PV-HD1000 as the 'snooping' VCR, I got no picture on the recorded tape (or from the Panny STB).

I believe when a copy-protected tape is played on a PV-HD1000, it locks into the 5C copy protection protocol, which the TU-DST50 does not understand.

Clearly the copy protection developers forsaw the need to be robust against inserting a simple Firewire hub into the system.

-Dylan


[This message has been edited by dahester (edited 08-08-2001).]

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