Really want to record HDTV. Best solution? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 47 Old 09-18-2001, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by MF70:
But I also would like to call your attention that I was talking about the presence of the 1394 connector and interface circuitry in a piece of equipment.
As I stated, all the HD equipment that I know of that has 1394 connectors with the exception of the early Panasonic HD D-VHS recorder, is DTCP compliant and thus interoperable. We are talking about HD equipment here, aren't we? It's a pretty short list: Mitsubishi's and JVC's respective HD D-VHS VCRs, 3 new monitors from Sony w/integrated ATSC tuners (only one of which has shipped), sets with integrated HD tuners which should ship from Mitsubishi this Fall and Winter, one of which should ship next month, Sony's new cable box (which can't decode an HD stream, but could "tune" it and pass it on over it's 1394/DTCP connectors)--all of these have DTCP compliant 1394 connections.

Both Echostar and DIRECTV have talked about developing 1394/DTCP compliant STBs and all their current STBs are rigged to decrease the resolution of copy-protected material viewed through the analog HD component video outputs whensoever they should choose to invoke that feature, something which has provoked endless discussion in these forums--at some future time you might have to have a monitor with copy-protected connections in order to view copy-protected content at full HD resolution. However, the DTCP Adopters Agreement imposes strict limits on where copy-protection and image resolution constraint can be applied--pretty much only premium movie channels (HBO, Showtime, etc), pay-per-view and prerecorded media.

-- Mike Scott

[This message has been edited by michaeltscott (edited 09-18-2001).]

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post #32 of 47 Old 09-18-2001, 10:38 PM
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Thank you, Mike, for a thorough explanation of what DTCP is and of how it is going to be implemented in future hardware products. I am looking forward to investigating the contents of the site to which you directed me. But I also would like to call your attention that I was talking about the presence of the 1394 connector and interface circuitry in a piece of equipment. DTCP is a specification that will make use of 1394 for the transmission of data. And I am in total agreement that DTCP equipment will be compatible. Thanks for being so informative.

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post #33 of 47 Old 09-19-2001, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by rudolpht:
I would like to find better market pricing than I found above.

Tim
I see you purchased one on Ebay! Congrats. I had done a price survey for US Govt purchase, and was quoted a price of $2959.00 for the SR-W5U. This price probably isn't available at retail, but it gives you an idea of dealer markup and where the bottom point is.

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post #34 of 47 Old 09-19-2001, 08:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gerald C:
I see you purchased one on Ebay!
...and you got it at a very good price; well done! Any decent universal remote control that VCR.


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post #35 of 47 Old 09-19-2001, 09:44 PM
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Gerald & HiDefGuy,

Thanks. Got a little hairy at the end of the auction, and of course paid more than I wanted but appears to be a very good deal with current investment in HD products (analog though it may be).

Very anxiously awaiting this baby to arrive. Already ordered and received some D-9 Digital-S tapes to sub for W-VHS labeled tapes.

Great threads here and throughout AVS Forums made me do it....http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif That's my story & I'm sticking to it.

Tim

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post #36 of 47 Old 09-19-2001, 09:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by HiDefGuy:
...and you got it at a very good price; well done! Any decent universal remote control that VCR.
Actually warming up the Pronto. Anyone know if there is an equivalent VCR codewise & I'll try remotecentral to pull a CCF.

Thanks,
Tim


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post #37 of 47 Old 09-19-2001, 10:14 PM
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Tim;
The remote that comes with the unit is very basic; absolutely basic control over play/record etc with only a tracking control providing anything special. On the universal remotes that I've used (I have several), most all the standard JVC VCR codes entered cause the remote to control the JVC just fine, so the chances of finding a remote that doesn't work with it are slim.
I think you'll have a lot of fun with this baby; don't forget to order a D9 cleaning tape now; JVC still makes them but they can be a little difficult to track down (DON'T use a regular tape cleaner). Please try to post your views on the unit when you've had a chance to look her over.


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post #38 of 47 Old 09-20-2001, 09:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by HiDefGuy:
Please try to post your views on the unit when you've had a chance to look her over.
Will do & I'll order up the D-9 head cleaner tape.

Thanks for the pointers,
Tim


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post #39 of 47 Old 09-21-2001, 02:26 PM
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For those readers looking to record HDTV programs, there are a couple of PC-based solutions that work quite well and are NOT expensive.

Both the Hauppauge WinTV-HD PC card ($399) and accessDTV card ($375) allow you to record any 8VSB program you stream into them.

The Hauppauge card records the MPEG transport stream unencrypted. You cannot pause, FF, RW, or otherwise slow down/speed up the playback. Just record and playback.

The accessDTV card records, but encrypts the file so you cannot move it to another PC (unless you move the tuner card as well). accessDTV has a program guide service for $10 per month that lets you select shows for recording merely by clicking on them.

The version of the Hauppauge card I had (1.9) did not have the ability to pre-program "on" and "off" times for recording - you had to do it in real time. But that feature may now be present.

Both cards can be used with ANY 8VSB source. This would include the Dish 5000 and 8 VSB modulator. You will need about 9 GB (gigabytes) of storage for each hour you record.

Both cards output your choice of analog or digital audio - digital to an external Dolby decoder, for 5.1 for example.

KC
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post #40 of 47 Old 09-21-2001, 04:35 PM
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Don't forget to mention the HiPix from Telemann. This was the first HDTV redcord card and had a lot of start-up problems (A LOT). They also had a 6 month lag on the second manufacturing run. First 50 units 12/2000 next run 7/2001. But now all is well. I am running version 2.3 and the perfeomnance is flawless. The infamous audio problems have also gone away.

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post #41 of 47 Old 10-29-2001, 11:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by ADebar

you forgot about people, like myself, who who digital cable HD. I get all of my locals, HBO, and SHO over my digital cable HD. it is in QAM format and the the Mit's with internal decoders support QAM. therefore all of these stations would be output to the D-VHS recorder.
I'm in Comcast country where HDTV is scheduled for rollout on Thursday. The HD signal will be coming from a DCT2000 box chained to a HD 200 HDTV decoder that will output component video. Do you have anything like that now? Does your Mits decode the 256 QAM on its own and feed a D-VHS recorder? Seems to me that the 256 QAM signal is encrypted, and the output of the DCT2000 itself is not HD. Only by feeding the DCT2000 output via the proprietary serial link to the HD 200 do you get HD, and then only component.

Thoughts?

-Chris
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post #42 of 47 Old 10-30-2001, 11:24 AM
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So what is the bottom line for peopel that just bought a HDTV in the last 5 months? I just purchased a 56H80 Toshiba and it sounds like total BS that I now wish I had something with this new DVI inteface on it! it means
I wont be able to watch Pay Per View HD or specials that are in HS like I am sure the super bowl? unles it is prett ymuch down graded to normal 480i?
WTF? is that right?
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post #43 of 47 Old 10-30-2001, 09:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Comen
So what is the bottom line for peopel that just bought a HDTV in the last 5 months? I just purchased a 56H80 Toshiba and it sounds like total BS that I now wish I had something with this new DVI inteface on it! it means
I wont be able to watch Pay Per View HD or specials that are in HS like I am sure the super bowl? unles it is prett ymuch down graded to normal 480i?
WTF? is that right?
We've gone round and round on the topic of copy-protection in these forums in recent months. Do a search of the HDTV forums for "HDCP or DTCP or DFAST or DTLA or 5C or copy-protection", and prepare to sift through a ton of posts. (Unfortunately, many people took to using these terms in little protest statements in their signatures, so they appear in many threads that have nothing to do with copy-protection).

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post #44 of 47 Old 10-30-2001, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Comen
So what is the bottom line for peopel that just bought a HDTV in the last 5 months? I just purchased a 56H80 Toshiba and it sounds like total BS that I now wish I had something with this new DVI inteface on it! it means
I wont be able to watch Pay Per View HD or specials that are in HS like I am sure the super bowl? unles it is prett ymuch down graded to normal 480i?
WTF? is that right?
Since no programs have ever been affected by a STB, at least not yet, we really don't know what will happen or when it might happen.

It is possible for program providers (like Dish, DirecTV, cableco's) to down-res HDTV programming, if told to do so by the program owner (movie studios). It's very, very unlikely this will happen to your local DTV programming.

If the recent Dish/DirecTV merger goes through, it could delay the DVI or 5C only implementation. Or it could speed it up.

As for an HDTV with a DVI or 5C interface that will let you watch copy protected PPV movies, I wish you good luck finding one. There are less than a half a dozen to choose from, which along with the lack of STB's, is why you have a choice to make: Enjoy HDTV now, or wait until this issue is settled, it will probably take a few years.

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post #45 of 47 Old 11-01-2001, 06:23 PM
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One more HTPC solution has presented itself. If you have the HTPC plus one of the three current over-the-air HDTV tuner boards for it (HiPix/AccessDTV/WinTV-HD), you can now add a Firewire interface board (about $50) and use the PC to stream the MPEG2 to an external Mini-DV or Digital-8 camcorder ($500 and up) over Firewire. The shareware tool is called DVTransfer:

http://www.badchicken.com/DVTransfer/

This still seems to be a solution for OTA broadcasts only, and the main advantage would seem to be the tiny size of the camcorder media. It is also a little more suitable for archiving than streaming MPEG2 to a hard disk - eventually you run out of disk space no matter how large it is, whereas one simply buys a package of tapes.

Maybe I'm not understanding something here, but it goes without saying that the current Firewire hardware, including the existing PC interface boards and camcorders, does not support the proposed 5C standard. Why exactly will this hardware stop functioning when they embed 5C flags at some future date? Why won't it continue to work as it does today while ignoring such flags?

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post #46 of 47 Old 11-01-2001, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gary McCoy

...snip...

Maybe I'm not understanding something here, but it goes without saying that the current Firewire hardware, including the existing PC interface boards and camcorders, does not support the proposed 5C standard. Why exactly will this hardware stop functioning when they embed 5C flags at some future date? Why won't it continue to work as it does today while ignoring such flags?

Gary
because of encryption. If someone is broadcasting something with an intent to allow only 1 or 0 copies then they will encrypt it so that only compliant hardware/software will be able to de-crypt it. By "compliant" I mean authorized hardware/software that follows the broadcasters intent.

-mark
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post #47 of 47 Old 11-01-2001, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by markkent
because of encryption. If someone is broadcasting something with an intent to allow only 1 or 0 copies then they will encrypt it so that only compliant hardware/software will be able to de-crypt it. By "compliant" I mean authorized hardware/software that follows the broadcasters intent.

-mark
Not just encryption--most importantly, authentication. A piece of equipment which wants to receive protected content (a "sink", like a recorder) must convince the piece of equipment which has that content (a "source", like a cable or DBS STB) that it is authorized to participate in DTCP. Once the two devices are satisfied with each other's credentials, they then exchange information (in an encrypted fashion) to determine the set of public keys that will be used to encrypt the MPEG-2 data before it's passed between them. You have to have the matching private keys to decrypt the data--only the device that requested it can make any sense of it.

If that initial authentication step is not successful, no protected video is placed on the cable to be captured. Even after it starts, every couple of seconds, the source issues a challenge that only the sink that authenticated the link can successfully respond to (to keep people from disconnecting the line after authentication to an authorized sink and connecting it to something else).

There are four levels of protection in DTCP (actually, they all stem from CGMS)--"Copy Freely", "Copy One Generation", "Copy No More" and "Copy Never". "Copy Freely" data is not encrypted and no authentication is performed before sending it. "Copy One Generation" data can be copied once by a compliant device, but the playback of those recordings must be marked "Copy No More", which no compliant device will record. "Copy Never" not only is not be to recorded by a compliant device (except a PVR, which isn't allowed to archive it, only to buffer it for pausing and rewinding, etc), it is protected by a second, much stronger form of authentication; recording devices other than PVRs are not factory-provisioned with the information that they'd require to pass that authentication--they basically can't even ask a source to send "Copy Never" content to them.

-- Mike Scott

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