Really want to record HDTV. Best solution? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 47 Old 09-09-2001, 08:56 AM - Thread Starter
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After the US open I really want and need to record HDTV. It is unbelivable that we have to rewind to the 70's where we have to go home to watch something.

This year it was impossible for me to watch the earlier match on Friday. Or, I guess, I could have quit my job and stayed home and watch.

What is the best solution today? I am guessing an HTPC with one of the two boards available. But would like to hear.

-Jym-
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post #2 of 47 Old 09-09-2001, 10:11 AM
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There are very few options that allow HDTV recording. These are the sum of what is available and what is coming in the next 60 days:

1. HTPC with HDTV tuner card and capture software. Makes a PC into a "TIVO" like device but only works with OTA HDTV...no HBO, HDNET. PPV or Showtime.

2. The Panasonic HD STB (older models 50 and 51) with the HD1000 DVHS recorder. No longer produced.

3. The Dish 5000 STB with HD Modulator and the Panasonic STB (again older model) and the DVHS HD VCR. All No longer produced. This combination will record ALL the available HDTV on OTA and Satellite.

4. The new Mits DVHS HD VCR to be released bt the end of October. Cost...less than $1000 but requires a 1394 "firewire" input. Has no internal HD tuner. Will only work with new Mits and Sony HD RPTV's that contain HD tuner and Firewire module. Again will only record OTA HDTV.

5. The new JVC DVHS HD VCR. To be released again by the end of October. Very much the same as #4 as far as no tuner. Firewire input, OTA only with a cost of $2,000.

That is it.


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post #3 of 47 Old 09-09-2001, 10:39 AM
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Just to add to Lee's post...

There also are the W-VHS units from JVC which record analog component HD.

As far as HDNet goes, I believe the W-VHS is the only way to record it because The Dish 5000 STB with HD Modulator and the Panasonic STB and the DVHS HD VCR will only record Satelite signals from Dish Network.

Lee, correct me if I am wrong.

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post #4 of 47 Old 09-09-2001, 01:05 PM
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I have hopes for the Mits DVHS HD VCR. It should work on my Sony KD-34XBR2. Only problem though is if the unit "receives" its' input from my Sony HDTV OTA tuner won't that eliminate my being able to watch another HDTV channel while recording another?

With ABC's Fall 2001 announcement there are finally going to be times when good HD programs will be going head-to-head against each other.

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post #5 of 47 Old 09-09-2001, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by LeeAntin:
3. The Dish 5000 STB with HD Modulator and the Panasonic STB (again older model) and the DVHS HD VCR. All No longer produced. This combination will record ALL the available HDTV on OTA and Satellite.
Two minor corrections... The Dish 5000 STB can also be used with any of the HTPC based solutions (number 1). Also anything mixed with this will let you record all OTA and DISH Sat HD. This doesn't give you the ability to record things only on DirecTV (like HDnet).

-apnar

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post #6 of 47 Old 09-09-2001, 01:17 PM
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Do you have any links or anymore details about this W-VHS units? I didn't know that there are vcr's that can record analog component video. How does it handle dolby digital?

Quote:
Originally posted by casenpt1:
Just to add to Lee's post...

There also are the W-VHS units from JVC which record analog component HD.

As far as HDNet goes, I believe the W-VHS is the only way to record it because The Dish 5000 STB with HD Modulator and the Panasonic STB and the DVHS HD VCR will only record Satelite signals from Dish Network.

Lee, correct me if I am wrong.


"I fear, from the experience of the last twenty-five years, that morals do not of necessity advance hand in hand with the sciences." --Thomas Jefferson to M. Correa de Serra, 1815. ME 14:331
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post #7 of 47 Old 09-09-2001, 01:41 PM
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There are a couple of machines that can do this. They are the JVC SR-W5U and SR-W7U W-VHS decks. The recording is analog and the sound is only stereo (Pro Logic) but several forum members that use them have said that the picture is just as good as digital HDTV recorded with the Panasonic D-VHS. The W-VHS tapes it uses are also expensive (about $30 each). Its MSRP is around 5k but you can find them in the net for much less. One of them sold on E-bay a few weeks ago for $1500. There's also a member with a Japanese connection who stated on this thread that he can get them from Japan for $1250. I believe this is a very good option and it doesn't break the bank. The only downside I see is that you won't be able to get 5.1 sound but not many HD broadcasts have 5.1 sound anyway! I'm saving up for one of these already http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif


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post #8 of 47 Old 09-09-2001, 01:53 PM
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Although I have two DV100 units, this sounds like an acceptable solution especially for people that don't care about dolby 5.1 I wonder if somehow you could record the soundtrack on another digital system and then match the sound to the image..that would be interesting.

"I fear, from the experience of the last twenty-five years, that morals do not of necessity advance hand in hand with the sciences." --Thomas Jefferson to M. Correa de Serra, 1815. ME 14:331
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post #9 of 47 Old 09-09-2001, 03:03 PM
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I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but don't the SR-W5U and SR-W7U record the analog HDTV signal that is currently output by all set top boxes and HDTV tuners currently in existence?

If and when the day comes that Echostar and DirecTV are forced to start cutting off the analog HDTV signal coming out of their STB's, won't you be left with a multi-thousand dollar VCR that can only record satellite programs at 480i? Blech.

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post #10 of 47 Old 09-09-2001, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by LeeAntin:
The new Mits DVHS HD VCR to be released bt the end of October. Cost...less than $1000 but requires a 1394 "firewire" input. Has no internal HD tuner. Will only work with new Mits and Sony HD RPTV's that contain HD tuner and Firewire module. Again will only record OTA HDTV.
you forgot about people, like myself, who who digital cable HD. I get all of my locals, HBO, and SHO over my digital cable HD. it is in QAM format and the the Mit's with internal decoders support QAM. therefore all of these stations would be output to the D-VHS recorder.



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post #11 of 47 Old 09-09-2001, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by vruiz:
The only downside I see is that you won't be able to get 5.1 sound but not many HD broadcasts have 5.1 sound anyway!
Vic,
Re: W-VHS HD recording, the other downsides are very expensive/fragile metal particle tapes and the less than perfect rendering. Having said that, I'm now so used to time-shifting HD DirecTV (and OTA) material that I'd be lost without it. As for not having 5.1 recording facility, since I'm something of an audio-philestine, anything with stereo is a treat for me!


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[This message has been edited by HiDefGuy (edited 09-09-2001).]
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post #12 of 47 Old 09-09-2001, 10:38 PM
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Hi guys, I am the member in Japan who said he could get the WVHS units for $1250. I cannot say for sure I can get them so easily anymore; the place that I was going to get them from sold 6 in about two weeks after I posted (which is surprising to me since analog HDTV is pretty dead here and the selection of DVHS recorders and set top boxes is pretty wide). I believe there were thousands sold here before Japan's HDTV went digital so there should be more out there but it might take a little searching. I plan to contact JVC to find out how much they charge to install new heads on these machines so that even if someone buys a used recorder at least the heads will be pristine.

Keep in mind that other posters say that the WVHS recorders don't work with the RCA DTC-100 set top boxes and this link http://www.accupel.com/HDG2000_FAQ_f.html seems to shed light on why. Also other posters have said that the WVHS recorders don't record the signal from progressive scan DVD players with component outs.

Right now the price of the 120 minute WVHS tapes is $21.95 each while the 180 minute WVHS tapes are $33.60 each but Express Mail Service shipping to the US (which the Japan Post Office says is 5 days but which I has been more like 3 days when I used it before) adds about $5.50 per tape and so far I have shipped blank tapes to a couple of people (1 in the US and 1 in Canada) without either of them being charged any duties. As you can see Vic is pretty correct about about the high cost of the blank tapes.

I hope to use the HiPix, the Key Digital VGA to component transcoder and the HiPix test patterns (originally provided by AVS Forum member Glimmie) to check out what sort of resolution the WVHS recorders are capable of capturing.

Milton
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post #13 of 47 Old 09-10-2001, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by LeeAntin:
4. The new Mits DVHS HD VCR to be released bt the end of October. Cost...less than $1000 but requires a 1394 "firewire" input. Has no internal HD tuner. Will only work with new Mits and Sony HD RPTV's that contain HD tuner and Firewire module. Again will only record OTA HDTV.
This is untrue. It can only record what HD it can get over 1394/DTCP. This could be anything. If a 1394/DTCP compliant cable or DBS STB was present in it's network, it could presumably record any HD video which that STB could tune (well, anything it could tune except PPV, which would probably be broadcast with "Copy Never" protection--the only content which can be broadcast that way, according to the DTCP Adopter's Agreement).

-- Mike Scott

[This message has been edited by michaeltscott (edited 09-11-2001).]

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post #14 of 47 Old 09-10-2001, 03:36 PM
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I'm moving this to the HDTV Recording Forum. Those interested may also want to read the new JVC DHVS topic for some interesting information.

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post #15 of 47 Old 09-10-2001, 04:43 PM
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Thanks LeeAntin for the first response in this post. Regarding your response #4 about the Mits D-VHS VCR only working with sets with 1394 interfaces...

Given that the 1394/5C thing appears to have (reasonably) settled down as far as recording goes, does anybody have any information about the likelihood that the Hughes built STBs (Hughes, Toshiba, Mits) will incorporate a 1394/5C interface in their next versions? If I remember correctly, these boxes were supposedly 'finished' sometime in mid-2000, but were delayed because of APG problems. They were finally release late 2000/early 2001, and I would expect that product cycles being what they are, that Hughes has new versions gearing up for production.

Any news from anybody on this front?
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post #16 of 47 Old 09-10-2001, 05:37 PM
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Dish Network says that it's next generation HD STB will "probably" have both 1394 and DVI. When this box will be made available is anyones guess.

There are two ports on the back of the current 6000; one for the OTA Module and the other is unused at this time. Bit Dish could come up with a 1394 or 1394/DVI or just DVI Module to fit into this STB.

Mike:

The biggest problem with the Mits HD VCR is that it does not have any HD Analog output. The only HD output is via the 1394 port which makes it useless to the 1.5 million HDTV displays that currently occupy the marketplace.

That still leaves all of us out in the cold as far as the ability to timeshift using an off the shelf, plug it in and it works HD recording device.

Lee
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post #17 of 47 Old 09-10-2001, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by LeeAntin:
Mike:

The biggest problem with the Mits HD VCR is that it does not have any HD Analog output. The only HD output is via the 1394 port which makes it useless to the 1.5 million HDTV displays that currently occupy the marketplace.

That still leaves all of us out in the cold as far as the ability to timeshift using an off the shelf, plug it in and it works HD recording device.
Are there a full 1.5 million displays sold? Hmmm. Last count I heard was about 700k and that was only a few months ago, with many fewer tuners sold. Also, I personally don't count any sets with horizontal resolution of less than 1280 (i.e., able to display 720p in real pixels, and if unable to display 720p, then it has to be able to display 1080i in real pixels). Are we counting, perhaps, unsold sets in the shops? Anybody got a pointer to recent "official" data online?

In any case, whatever the number it is, it's made significant by the fact that it's more or less all the HDTVs. Only people who've bought Sony's KD-34XBR2 could use Mitsubishi's HD D-VHS VCR today, so far as I know. Of course, all those who've bought Mitsubishi upgradeable sets can spend an additional $1K and get their sets upgraded so that they can use it, and Sony and Mitsubishi will have further sets on sale this fall that will work with it.

JVC's new deck is a better solution for people with current sets, since it has HD analog component video output and an MPEG-2 decoder. Of course, it can only record from 1394/DTCP inputs, and is bound by the DTCP Adopter's Agreement to image contrain any copy-protected stuff that it records on playback through those analog outputs. But, per that same agreement, that can only affect premium movie channels content and pay-per-view films (you probably won't be able to copy the latter at all)--OTA rebroadcasts over cable or DBS can't be copy-protected and all other cable/DBS subscription stuff, though it can be "Copy One Generation" protected, cannot be image constained if it has commercial interruptions. So there's plenty of stuff that JVC's deck can be used to record and view in full HD on current non-copy-protected sets.

Interestingly according to this news piece, only Sony, Mitsubishi and JVC came to CEDIA with any copy-protected equipment and half of Sony's new HD sets did not have copy protected digital connectors. However, we do know that DISH and DIRECTV plan to deploy copy-protected STBs; I think that they'd better include HD component video outs, even if they have to be image constrained for copy-protected material. DISH at least plans to have both DVI/HDCP and 1394/HDCP connections--they have to have a MPEG-2 decoder to support DVI/HDCP.

-- Mike Scott



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post #18 of 47 Old 09-11-2001, 01:11 AM
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Mike,

That JVC unit is damn expensive with a list price of $2,000. That is the same or more than one of the new HDTV RPTV's!

The numbers I have read say 1.2 million HD ready sets (including FPTV) and 150,000 stb's since August of 1999 when HDTV was introduced to America via DirecTV's first broadcast of HBO.

As you know the success of DVD is responsible for the high display sales versus those people who can actually see HDTV.

Me personally...I will wait for the Dish 921 PVR and hope it will attach to my RGBHV PJ.

Lee
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post #19 of 47 Old 09-11-2001, 05:28 AM
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by LeeAntin:
The new Mits DVHS HD VCR to be released bt the end of October. Cost...less than $1000 but requires a 1394 "firewire" input. Has no internal HD tuner. Will only work with new Mits and Sony HD RPTV's that contain HD tuner and Firewire module. Again will only record OTA HDTV.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ADEBAR:
you forgot about people, like myself, who who digital cable HD. I get all of my locals, HBO, and SHO over my digital cable HD. it is in QAM format and the the Mit's with internal decoders support QAM. therefore all of these stations would be output to the D-VHS recorder.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How does this work? Are you saying this set has an adressable cable box built in to bypass the HD2000 from Time Warner?


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post #20 of 47 Old 09-12-2001, 11:35 AM
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I'm seeing best pricing on the SR-W5U about $4.5K & SR-W7U about $5.5K.

Tim

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post #21 of 47 Old 09-12-2001, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by LeeAntin:
Me personally...I will wait for the Dish 921 PVR and hope it will attach to my RGBHV PJ.
Given Echostar's apparent commitment to copy-protection, even if that PVR has any form of analog HD outputs, which it seems reasonable for it to have, I'd expect it also have copy-protected outputs and to image constrain copy-protected content on playback through the analog HD outputs. It would also not be able to store "Copy Never" (pay-per-view) stuff long-term, though it could buffer up to 90-minutes worth of it while you were watching it in realtime, so that you could pause, rewind and play other PVR tricks with it.

In the case that it has analog HD outputs, I'd also expect it to be no less expensive to purchase than JVC's D-VHS deck: HD MPEG-2 decoding doesn't seem to come cheap for some reason, and looks to be adding several hundred dollars retail to the price of anything which features it. This is a bit surprising, since PC MPEG cards are getting pretty damned inexpensive. Here's one for &lt; $70: it's specs state that it can handle up to 20 Mb/sec sustained--isn't broadcast HD less than that?

-- Mike Scott

[This message has been edited by michaeltscott (edited 09-12-2001).]

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post #22 of 47 Old 09-12-2001, 03:40 PM
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Mike,

I think that you and I keep having this discussion and I keep making my point and you keep ignoring it.

Lets AGAIN make some assumptions about the 921 PVR:

1. It will use the 5C Copy protection plan.

2. It will have Analog HD Outputs.

Addressing #1; two out of the three copy "flags" allow a copy to be made. Only the third..."Copy Never" will disallow the PVR to work and we HAVE agreed in the past, that this CN flag will be used for PPV and special events.

But programming like HBO, Showtime, HDnet, all OTA and additions like Discovery, etc will not use the CN flag due to either their age in the life of a movie, or by the fact that there are commerical inturreptions.

Point #2; In the 1394/5C/DTCP plan, the crippling of Analog outputs is not like the DVI/HDCP plan which says...no DVI connection...no HDTV.

I am not looking to archive HDTV...just timeshift it. And I am sure that IF the above holds true than this unit might have a 1394 output to allow archiving the programming on one of these new DVHS HD VCR's and IF that was the case then the 5C copy flag would move from the PVR into the VCR, again preserving the flag.

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post #23 of 47 Old 09-12-2001, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by LeeAntin:
Mike,

I think that you and I keep having this discussion and I keep making my point and you keep ignoring it.
I don't think so. We may have a misunderstanding, but I'm listening to what you're saying.
Quote:

Lets AGAIN make some assumptions about the 921 PVR:

1. It will use the 5C Copy protection plan.

2. It will have Analog HD Outputs.

Addressing #1; two out of the three copy "flags" allow a copy to be made. Only the third..."Copy Never" will disallow the PVR to work and we HAVE agreed in the past, that this CN flag will be used for PPV and special events.

But programming like HBO, Showtime, HDnet, all OTA and additions like Discovery, etc will not use the CN flag due to either their age in the life of a movie, or by the fact that there are commerical inturreptions.
Premium subscriptions channels (HBO, Showtime, Cinemax, etc) cannot be marked "Copy Never" because the DTCP Adopter's Agreement says that only prerecorded media and pay-per-single-viewing broadcasts may be marked that way. Also, there are four "flags": "Copy Never", "Copy One Generation", "Copy No More" (marked on a copy of "Copy One Generation" data) and "Copy Freely".
Quote:

Point #2; In the 1394/5C/DTCP plan, the crippling of Analog outputs is not like the DVI/HDCP plan which says...no DVI connection...no HDTV.
I defy you to find such a "plan" written anywhere. The developers of DVI/HDCP have stated that they did not intend it to be the sole copy-protected connection in an A/V network; they always intended for it to be used along with 1394/DTCP or something else which could be recorded. The DTCP Adopter's Agreement was extended to allow the transmission of decrypted data over DVI/HDCP connections, an endorsement of DVI/HDCP by the DTLA. DVI is just a somewhat cheaper connection to implement in the display, since the display doesn't have to be able to decode MPEG-2 to use it. In this press release published in the online EETimes, one of the developers of DVI/HDCP, Silicon Image (the other was Intel, also one of the developers of 1394/DTCP) makes the following statement:
Quote:
DVI/HDCP protects content but does not preempt consumer rights to record or time-shift video content for personal use. DVI/HDCP does not impact the and functionality of upstream devices such as personal video recorders or digital VCRs, which are independent of the DVI connection to the HDTV.
The point that I think that you keep missing is that, in an DTCP compliant device with analog outputs, any level of copy-protected material, be it "Copy Never", "Copy One Generation" or "Copy No More" must be down-res'd for display through the HD analog outputs. "Copy One Generation" and "Copy No More" may have flags inserted that override this--per the Agreement, such flags must be used if the content contains commercial interruptions. On point, from the Agreement:
Quote:
4.3 High Definition Analog Output. Licensed Products shall not pass Decrypted DT Data to a High Definition Analog Output, except as set forth in this Section 4.3:
4.3.1 Licensed Products may pass Decrypted DT Data to a High Definition Analog Output as a Constrained Image.
4.3.2 Licensed Products that recognize and respond to the Image Constraint Token in accordance with the Specification may pass Decrypted DT Data to an output in High Definition Analog Form when authorized by the setting of the Image Constraint Token.
4.3.3 Licensed Products incorporated into Computer Products may pass Copy One Generation or No More Copies Decrypted DT Data without image constraint to SVGA (1024x768 and greater), XGA(1024x768), SXGA and UXGA or similar computer video outputs that were widely implemented as of May 1, 2001 (but not to such typical consumer electronics outputs as NTSC, PAL, SECAM, SCART, YUV, S-Video and consumer RGB, whether or not such outputs are found on any Computer Product) in High Definition Analog Form for devices manufactured prior to December 31, 2005, unless otherwise
notified by DTLA.
4.3.4 Licensed Products may pass Decrypted DT Data in High Definition Analog Form to a High Definition Analog Output where such Decrypted DT Data is encoded Copy Freely.
Quote:
I am not looking to archive HDTV...just timeshift it. And I am sure that IF the above holds true than this unit might have a 1394 output to allow archiving the programming on one of these new DVHS HD VCR's and IF that was the case then the 5C copy flag would move from the PVR into the VCR, again preserving the flag.
Doesn't matter whether you're storing the HD video on removeable media or not: if it's in any way copy-protected, without over-riding Image Constraint Tokens, upon display through HD analog outputs, it must be image constrained. The whole point is to prevent it from being recorded in full HD from those analog outputs, using a W-VHS deck or something better.

The content providers aren't obligated to apply copy-protection to anything, but I'm assuming that, if copy-protection comes into common use, they will apply it to everything the Agreement allows them to apply it to. That means that all non-commercial-interrupted television that you pay a premium to subscribe to (more or less just the movie channels--HBO, Showtime, Cinemax, TMC, Starz and possibly Encore) will be marked "Copy One Generation" and all pay-per-view and video-on-demand, etc will be marked "Copy Never" and won't be recordable at all (though PVRs will be able to retain it for a period of time for pause and other "trick play" effects). If I'm reading the DTCP Adopter's Agreement correctly, everything else must be marked "Copy Freely" (or will be have Image Constraint Tokens) and you will be able to view it in full HD through the analog HD outputs of a DTCP compliant recorder.

-- Mike Scott

[This message has been edited by michaeltscott (edited 09-12-2001).]

Mike Scott (XBL: MikeHellion, PSN: MarcHellion)

"Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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post #24 of 47 Old 09-14-2001, 08:23 AM
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Hi All, here is a link to introduction of new JVC HD Recorder http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/010907/72174_1.html
best regards Artur.
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post #25 of 47 Old 09-14-2001, 10:57 AM
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Hi -

Actually, two models of JVC's W-VHS are available in the United States. The SR-W7U has a list price of about $6,000, while the SR-W5U has a list price of about $5,000. AV Science, a JVC Professional Products dealer and the sponsor of this forum, can provide details on each model. Market pricing for each W-VHS model is quite attractive.

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Executive Vice President
JVC Professional Products Co.

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post #26 of 47 Old 09-14-2001, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by rudolpht:
I'm seeing best pricing on the SR-W5U about $4.5K & SR-W7U about $5.5K.

Tim
I would like to find better market pricing than I found above.

Tim

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Selling Anthem PVA7.
STABILITY + Superior audio (SC09-TX) + Incredible picture (VPL-VW200) + good integration.
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post #27 of 47 Old 09-15-2001, 07:48 PM
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I really think your best bet is to contact forum member Milton who can probably supply a used unit from Japan for about $1250. I bought mine off Ebay in January for around $1700, and others have gone (used) for less $$ on Ebay. Also, Randall Dark offered a bunch in this forum a few months ago. Very cool for recording HDNet but, man, I'm waiting with baited breath for a 1394-enabled STB....

------------------
"You can't argue with a confident man"
- Napoleon Wilson, Assault on Precinct 13
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post #28 of 47 Old 09-17-2001, 10:12 AM
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What is 1394/FireWire? My understanding is that it is the number assigned to a specification by the Institute of Electrical Engineers to an electrical means of transfering digital-encoded data between the various components of a system. It is like the alphabet used by the languages of the western nations (English, French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, and others). Even though the same 26 letters are used, the meaning of the words spelled are different. What I am trying to say with this analogy is that even though one might be able to interconnect equipment equiped with 1394 connectors and interfaces, it does not necessarily mean that the data format transmitted between the various components is compatible. And, even if the data format is compatible, the compression and encryption algoriths may not be.

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post #29 of 47 Old 09-17-2001, 10:45 AM
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Here's a Panny HD1000 w/DST50 in the AVS Classifieds:
http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/005892.html
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post #30 of 47 Old 09-17-2001, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by MF70:
What I am trying to say with this analogy is that even though one might be able to interconnect equipment equiped with 1394 connectors and interfaces, it does not necessarily mean that the data format transmitted between the various components is compatible. And, even if the data format is compatible, the compression and encryption algoriths may not be.
Check out www.dtcp.com --there's a column of links on the left hand of the page with a tutorial slide show and a whitepaper that will give you some background on 1394/DTCP, which is what's being used in all of the HD devices that feature firewire connectors (with the exception of the early Panasonic D-VHS recorder, which is probably no longer available, and which, though it had 1394 connectors, probably didn't speak DTCP over them). In the middle of the page there are links to the DTCP specification (the public part) and to the Adopter's Agreement, which spells out exactly how the protections can be used--there are distinct limits on what material can be broadcast with what level of copy-protection.

Before OTA HD began to air, the entertainment IP holders complained that they would lose control of distribution of their high-value material (i.e., the stuff that they're trying to rent and sell copies of recording of) if it were broadcast in the clear in HD, since it could be recorded digitally and perfect copies could be made of any copy and of any copy of any copy, etc, etc. In response, 4 CE companies (Hitachi, Toshiba, Matsushita, Sony) and Intel banded together to create a digital media copy-protection scheme, based on networking HD A/V equipment in the home with IEEE1394, or Firewire connections, which are bi-directional and asynchronous, so a device can be both transmitting and receiving over a single wire simultaneously. Every device would have two such connectors, and they'd be daisy-chained together. This group of companies, called "5C" for "5 companies", published a draft specification in 1998 that was more or less complete in that year--Sony and NEC have been producing 1394 interface chips that will perform the encryption and decryption of the protocol for a few years now.

I'm certain that manufacturers implementing equipment with DTCP compliant connections have gotten together for interoperability testing--I've worked on large-scale networking devices in the past and the companies I worked for cooperated with their competitors in this way all the time--we jokingly called these interoperability testing gatherings "bake offs". If everyone's equipment is supposed to be able to talk to everyone else's and that's not the case, the customers aren't happy and everyone loses.

-- Mike Scott

[This message has been edited by michaeltscott (edited 09-17-2001).]

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"Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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