HD Movies are Coming , HD Movies are Coming!! - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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HDTV Recorders > HD Movies are Coming , HD Movies are Coming!!
chap's Avatar chap 09:13 AM 09-26-2001
Don,

Re-read the article, and your right. It states he is going to release hollywood movies. I read it improperly. Knowing this, I am still curious if other companies will be doing this other then mark. I'm curious as to what movies he will be able to get the license for. Does anyone know if he has the license to anything currently?

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STOP DVI/HDCP!!!!!
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JeremyJ's Avatar JeremyJ 12:17 PM 09-26-2001
I agree with John, I'm not going to play the tape game. It's either HD-DVD or nothing. We have to stand up to them. I do not want to go back to tapes, for all of the reasons that make DVD cool.

I don't think consumers will either. Early adopters won't because off all of the issues already mentioned, and joe six-pack probably won't care or notice the difference in quality between DVD and HDTV. I would even bet it would be difficult to convince most "joe sixpack" type users that a tape is even capable of being better than a disc. (These guys think Dish and Direct TV look great - because it's digital...don't get me started on that one!)

Jeremy

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D-ILA, HTPC, HDTV, Panamorph(?)
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michaeltscott's Avatar michaeltscott 02:43 PM 09-26-2001
Quote:
Originally posted by Frank:
What I would like to know is what comes out of the component outputs when the copy never flag is set.
1. nothing
2. 480P
3. 1080i which is first passed through a low pass filter of some kind.
3. 480i
4. 480i which is line doubled to 480P

Where are the specs?
The specs are in the DTCP Adopter's Agreement . Section 2.8 (part of a glossary of terms) reads:
Quote:
2.8 <u>Constrained Image</u> shall mean an image having the visual equivalent of no more than 520,000 pixels per frame (e.g., an image with resolution of 960 pixels by 540 pixels for a 16:9 aspect ratio). A Constrained Image may be attained by reducing resolution, for example, by discarding, dithering, or averaging pixels to obtain the specified value. A Constrained Image can be displayed using video processing techniques such as line doubling or sharpening to improve the perceived quality of the image. By way of example, a Constrained Image may be stretched or doubled, and displayed full-screen, on a 1000-line monitor.
You could achieve this by taking a 1080i frame and discarding every other line and every other pixel. This, however, would probably not be very pretty. It wouldn't take much processing to come up with something much nicer than best progressive scan processed DVD image, using techniques akin to the supersampled anti-aliasing algorithms employed by inexpensive computer 3D graphics chips. Whether implementors of DTCP compliant products will bother is the question. But if they're going to bother to put HD component video outputs on their products, they might as well bother to make the "image constrained" output as pretty as possible.

-- Mike Scott

[This message has been edited by michaeltscott (edited 09-27-2001).]
woowoo's Avatar woowoo 02:46 PM 09-26-2001
well...........
My name is not joe
But i do own a six-pack
so i can say........
tape Su**S

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Studio Broadcast Engineer
KET
Frank's Avatar Frank 03:08 PM 09-26-2001
Thanks Mike:

Quote:
2.8 Constrained Image shall mean an image having the visual equivalent of no more than 520,000 pixels per frame (e.g., an image with resolution of 960 pixels by 540 pixels for a 16:9 aspect ratio). A Constrained Image may be attained by reducing resolution, for example, by discarding, dithering, or averaging pixels to obtain the specified value. A Constrained Image can be displayed using video processing techniques such as line doubling or sharpening to improve the perceived quality of the image. By way of example, a Constrained Image may be stretched or doubled, and displayed full-screen, on a 1000-line monitor.
According to this, a 'constrained' image could produce a very good image which would be substantially better the a DVD.
The color resolution could be the full 960 by 540 could it not? That would be much, much better the the 360 by 240 chroma resolution of DVD.
I believe that what is being broadcast by HBO/Showtime might already be constrained to this resolution.



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Read Defrauding America.

Frank
wezar's Avatar wezar 05:47 PM 09-26-2001
I am very interested in Mark Cuban's efforts to provide HD content. If these tapes are viewable with the Panasonic combo or if the Mits works with the Panasonic OTA TU-DST50/51 it is a good thing.

Some talk of the media having a limited lifespan and reply that HD-DVDs will last a lifetime. Have you heard of laser-rot? I have Cd's which have the same issue which are about ten years old. They may improve the media but nothing is forever.

I was one of the first to jump on the DVD bandwagon because of the quality and convenience.

Now I have the ability to timeshift and archive HD content for $2.50 an hour. That's a good value for the convenience and quality. No I can't just jump to a scene or view alternate angles or added features like a DVD.

What I can do is pop in a tape and watch a HD movie or sporting event.

Now when they have a HDDVD recorders for a couple hundred dollars and rerecordable media for $5.00 I will join the ignore HD-VHS club. That should be in about ten to fifteen years. Which is about the time my tapes will need to be moved to new media.

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RJW
HiDefGuy's Avatar HiDefGuy 08:35 PM 09-26-2001
I got a brief reply from Mark Cuban which I posted in the main HD programming forum, which effectively said all D-VHS HD material originating from him (which presumably means mostly sports) will not be constrained in any way via the component outputs of the JVC, and he's yet to finalize on the requirements in respect to Hollywood movies (at least, that's what I surmized).

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"You can't argue with a confident man"
- Napoleon Wilson, Assault on Precinct 13
ADebar's Avatar ADebar 10:02 PM 09-26-2001
Quote:
Originally posted by wezar:
Now when they have a HDDVD recorders for a couple hundred dollars and rerecordable media for $5.00 I will join the ignore HD-VHS club. That should be in about ten to fifteen years.
the tech is just about here so i think your time frame is a little off. look for that in about 8 years.

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<FONT size="1">DirecTV HD</FONT s>
<FONT size="1"> My DVDs - DVD Profiler </FONT s>

Danger! Danger! Danger!
Frank's Avatar Frank 10:21 PM 09-26-2001
What I would like to know is what comes out of the component outputs when the copy never flag is set.
1. nothing
2. 480P
3. 1080i which is first passed through a low pass filter of some kind.
3. 480i
4. 480i which is line doubled to 480P

Where are the specs?



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Read Defrauding America.

Frank
wezar's Avatar wezar 11:08 PM 09-26-2001
ADebar, I hope you are right that it only takes 8 years, then the pile of tape I have to convert will only be half the size it would be if it took 15 years for the technology to be affordable.

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RJW
Don Landis's Avatar Don Landis 03:34 PM 09-27-2001
ADebar- I have to disagree with you on that time frame. After studying all the evidence it is definitly, 9 years and 2 months. How could you predict 8 years?

Seriously- Have any of you actually watched all of your library more than 2 times each? I have to admit that 90% of my library is unwatched more than twice. But there are a few movies I have watched more than 5 times since recording them. I got into the habit of recording for time shifting and just slapped a label on and put the tape on the shelf rather than use it again. I'm just glad I didn't pay $20-30 each for all those movies in DVD.

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Don Landis
Home Theater Pics at: www.scubatech.com Last updated 3/25/01
bb1987's Avatar bb1987 03:55 PM 09-27-2001
As far as my HD library is concerned I have watched about 80 Percent of it only once, and about 10 Percent not at all yet, but I have also watched some of the movies several times, same as Don. The main thing about building a movie library is to know that should you have a sudden urge to watch a certain movie, you know it it there waiting for you.

Bernhard


Don Landis's Avatar Don Landis 12:53 AM 09-28-2001
That's it but I know that I will stop taping a library if they ever perfect VOD in HD. It will be much cheaper to just use that.

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Don Landis
Home Theater Pics at: www.scubatech.com Last updated 3/25/01
Michael4JBL's Avatar Michael4JBL 07:04 AM 09-28-2001
You have to remember that Mark Cunban is probably not made a dime off of HDNET. This is one way he will be able to make a return on his investment.

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jacmyoung's Avatar jacmyoung 05:08 PM 09-28-2001
Why whould many of us go out and buy a $2,000 video player (to many of us it is just that), and another $30 for a tape from Mark to watch an HD movie, when we can pay $4.99 for an HD movie on the same channel Mark has his HDNet on?

It makes more sense to distribute his HD materials through DirecTV or even Dishnetwork on a PPV basis. I know the current HDNet can not be on Dish, but his movies or other pre-recorded goods certainly should be. Seem a better way for us to support his HD effort.
robena's Avatar robena 11:40 AM 09-30-2001
HDCP is already craked .

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Robert
michaeltscott's Avatar michaeltscott 03:31 PM 09-30-2001
Quote:
Originally posted by robena:
HDCP is already craked .

More accurately, a Dutch researcher says that he knows how to crack it, given access to about $500,000 dollars worth of equipment for two weeks (there are currently no DVI/HDCP displays on sale--JVC's D'Ahlia and a few pricey DLP front projectors--that cost less than $8k at a heavy discount). Intel says that the guy is full of crap. If DVI becomes widely adopted, perhaps we'll see.

In any case, I think that DVI/HDCP has many more obstacles in its path to adoption than whether it's been "cracked" or not. The D'Ahlia is the only thing close to a mass-market monitor that has selected it, and at $12k list price, it's not very close. DVI/HDCP is only really attractive to makers of digital displays--DLP, LCOS, D-ILA, LCD and Plasma--it would be fairly expensive to use in the CRT-based RPTVs that comprise most of the HDTVs on sale today. On top of this, it pushes the intelligence required for video decompression off on every other device in your A/V network or requires that there be a central device that does that decompression that then passes it to the display over DVI/HDCP, creating one more point of potential attack on the decrypted digital data. I really think that DVI/HDCP will not ever become particularly popular, unless digital displays take over, which they might.

It's interesting to note that while JVC put a DVI/HDCP connection on D'Ahlia, they did not put one on the the HM-DH30000U D-VHS VCR. Shows how much they believe in the technology.

trbarry said "they want to push DTCP", if that's what you were responding to--not HDCP. Only Intel and Microsoft seem to be "championing" (to borrow a term from my stint at Motorola) HDCP, though Echostar plans to support it, as well at 1394/DTCP, on upcoming STBs and DirecTV is encouraging its OEM partners to include both interfaces on their future STBs.

-- Mike Scott

[This message has been edited by michaeltscott (edited 09-30-2001).]
trbarry's Avatar trbarry 10:13 PM 09-30-2001
They have constrained it so much that they could now sell constrained resolution DVD's that might be compatible with some current players, and not even need to switch to MPEG-4 or any better compression method.

I think any movie that would fit on a single layer disc at 720x480 could be made to fit on a dual layer disc at 960x540, using current MPEG-2 DVD technology.

Anyone with an RPTV with 7" tubes could probably not see much difference from a current HBO HD movie. And it would be constrained enough already that it would not require additional copy protection.

But even though there would likely be a market I rather doubt they will sell these, because CSS is broken and they want to push DTCP. But they could.

- Tom



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Sean_S's Avatar Sean_S 05:04 PM 10-02-2001
I don't fully understand all this. Is there a recorder anywhere that can record HD component video? Is it possible? Does it have to be converted to digital and compressed before it could be recorded? Would it look as good as a 'pure' digital copy?

If FireWire and DVI copy protection schemes are compromised, wouldn't we end up with better, digital copies than if we recorded the analog signals?

Personally, I don't care as long as the highest bandwidth/resolution digital video is able to be transmitted to my display. None of us has the equipment (I think) to record fully uncompressed, or at least non-lossy compressed HD video (which, BTW, DVI can transmit).

My $.02.

Sean
PVR's Avatar PVR 06:09 PM 10-02-2001
&gt;&gt; I don't fully understand all this.
&gt;&gt; Is there a recorder anywhere that can record HD component
&gt;&gt; video?

My understanding is that *YES*, the rare "W-VHS" decks can do this.

&gt;&gt; Does it have to be converted to digital and compressed before it could be recorded?

My understanding is that W-VHS records the analog signal to tape as an analog waveform.

&gt;&gt; Would it look as good as a 'pure' digital copy?

I think there is some analog signal loss which means that it is not quite as good as a digital copy, and would suffer generational losses if you tried to "dub" it to another W-VHS deck.

michaeltscott's Avatar michaeltscott 08:29 PM 10-02-2001
Quote:
Originally posted by Sean_S:
I don't fully understand all this. Is there a recorder anywhere that can record HD component video? Is it possible? Does it have to be converted to digital and compressed before it could be recorded? Would it look as good as a 'pure' digital copy?
It will eventually be possible to capture, digitize and compress HD analog component video on the fly, capturing and storing it's 5.1 channel soundtrack with it in an MPEG-2 file. No, it wouldn't be every bit as good as a digital copy, whose playback should be indistinguishable from the original broadcast, but it would be a damn sight better looking than any standard definition DVD, and copies of the MPEG-2 file would not degrade in quality. Supposedly, one of the largest loses of revenue for the studios is caused by a plethora of small video rental operators making copies of VHS tapes (according to an editorial in Dale Cripps' HDTV Magazine)--if people can make money from such poor quality video, they could certainly make money from digitally captured analog HD.
Quote:
If FireWire and DVI copy protection schemes are compromised, wouldn't we end up with better, digital copies than if we recorded the analog signals?
You end up with better than analog recordings if you record uncompromised 1394/DTCP, too, and you'd need a digital connection on your monitor to enjoy it in any case.
Quote:
Personally, I don't care as long as the highest bandwidth/resolution digital video is able to be transmitted to my display. None of us has the equipment (I think) to record fully uncompressed, or at least non-lossy compressed HD video (which, BTW, DVI can transmit).
All forms of HD video enter your home in compressed format--monitors with 1394/DTCP connections have much more than sufficient bandwidth to receive encrypted streams of that compressed form. Why uncompress it before sending it to the monitor?

There are certainly arguments in favor of DVI/HDCP, but ultimately it either forces everything upstream of it to implement MPEG-2 decoding, or requires the creation of some centralized MPEG-2 decoder with a pair of 1394 connections and a DVI output to the monitor. All three copy-protected HD D-VHS VCRs, the discontinued Panasonic, and the soon to ship JVC HM-DH30000U and Mitsubishi HS-HD2000U have only 1394/DTCP connections for output of HD copy-protected video (the JVC implements an MPEG decoder and can output non-copy-protected HD through its analog HD component video connectors at full resolution, or copy-protected stuff image-constrained). Thus far, people with DVI/HDCP monitors are SOL for viewing copy-protected HD D-VHS.

-- Mike Scott

[This message has been edited by michaeltscott (edited 10-02-2001).]
Ken H's Avatar Ken H 08:56 PM 10-02-2001
Quote:
Originally posted by Sean_S:
Is there a recorder anywhere that can record HD component video?
Yes, there are two JVC units that are capable, copies are not perfect, but those who use them, say they work better than acceptable. Do a search for JVC on this forum for details.

Quote:
None of us has the equipment (I think) to record fully uncompressed, or at least non-lossy compressed HD video (which, BTW, DVI can transmit).
You don't need to record uncompressed HDTV. When it comes over the small dish or OTA, it's already compressed and ready to record via HD capable DVHS or computer hard drive.

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"Better living thru modern, expensive electronics devices"
tm

[This message has been edited by Ken H (edited 10-02-2001).]
kromkamp's Avatar kromkamp 11:21 AM 10-03-2001
I think the W-VHS machines make a very good copy, nearly indistinguishable from the source. They only record in 2-channel stereo, but thats not a huge problem.

The main problem is that the blank tape cost is outrageous - something like $25US.

Andy K.


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"L T One-Fifty
Did your light guide the wisemen,
to baby Jesus?"
Sean_S's Avatar Sean_S 04:48 PM 12-26-2001
Sorry I never replied. But thanks for the information.

Also, I overlooked the fact that all HD we receive in the home is already compressed with my comment re DVI vs. IEEE1394.

Thanks for the responses, guys.

Sean
rudolpht's Avatar rudolpht 09:07 AM 12-28-2001
Quote:
Originally posted by kromkamp
I think the W-VHS machines make a very good copy, nearly indistinguishable from the source. They only record in 2-channel stereo, but thats not a huge problem. The main problem is that the blank tape cost is outrageous - something like $25US.
Agree with Andy on all counts. I keep toying with getting an HDTV modulator to go with my crated 5000 & a HiPix, but then I wonder why get a short term solution when I have a good generic solution (W-VHS). I only tape epic-type movies so the tape cost is manageable (though I'm missing episodes 8 & 10 of BoB).

Tim
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