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post #1 of 20 Old 09-24-2001, 02:00 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm sure this has been asked before, but are there any plans to make an HD recording capable Tivo Recorder or anything similar? How far off is such a device? Seems to me with modern compresion techniques and large hard drives it could be created today if someone really wanted to. :-\\

[This message has been edited by gwichman (edited 09-24-2001).]

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post #2 of 20 Old 09-24-2001, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by gwichman:
I'm sure this has been asked before, but are there any plans to make an HD recording capable Tivo Recorder or anything similar? How far off is such a device? Seems to me with modern compression techniques and large hard drives it could be created today if someone really wanted to. :-\\
Sure it could, and I think the prospect of such things is driving the state of the art in large slow disk drives. Certainly, other true applications for 100GB and larger 5400 RPM ATA drives are limited. Not nearly fast enough for commercial server applications, but kinda big for home uses. MP3 archiving? Digital video editing?

However, due to pressure from the MPAA, you probably won't see these things without copy-protection: they'll have encrypted Firewire connections and, if they have analog HD component video outputs, they'll be constrained to the resolution of progressive-scan DVD when watching recording of subscription movie channels and you won't be able to record pay-per-view at all, though it will be able to buffer a certain amount of it for pause, rewind and other "trick play" effects). Therefore, if anyone makes them, there are very few people out there who can use them as yet, so there's no rush for introducing them.

Evidently Echostar has announced that they'll be introducing an HD PVR/DBS-STB combo sometime next year. I wouldn't expect the other PVR makers, Sony, Philips and Microsoft, to be too far behind.

-- Mike Scott


[This message has been edited by michaeltscott (edited 09-24-2001).]

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post #3 of 20 Old 09-25-2001, 12:53 AM
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With a PC and a HiPix or accessDTV card you basically
have it today.
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post #4 of 20 Old 09-25-2001, 02:33 PM
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The studios and content owners have no problems with dead end record deviuces such as Tivo and I think you will see a few HDTV units by next year. There really isn't much of a copyright issue here and it even opens up the possibility of more revenue for them. Let's say a big fight is on PPV. Of course the signal would be tagged "copy never" but a PVR could record it and allow a one time playback for those who would otherwise miss it.

What scares the hell out of them is not DVHS, it's devices like the HiPix. Reason is once that file is in a standard format inside a standard operating system like WinXX, it can be very esily sent over the internet.

So it's in their best interest to promote "closed box" PVR's so more people don't buy these PC based devices. I think the average person would rather have a dedicated PVR versus one of these PC based "toys" that are difficult to use. Don't get me wrong, I have a HiPix and love it. But I live for this stuff.

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post #5 of 20 Old 09-25-2001, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Glimmie:
The studios and content owners have no problems with dead end record deviuces such as Tivo and I think you will see a few HDTV units by next year.
The content owners don't care about whether the device can make portable copies or not, they care about whether its HD video outputs can be freely copied. If copy-protection is put into effect, no output of copy-protected broadcasts in full HD resolution will be allowed over analog HD outputs of any kind, component video or VGA. Your STB without a PVR won't be able to show you copy-protected stuff in HD on HD component video outs and your STB with PVR won't be able to do it either. They're afraid that you'll use something like JVC's W-VHS recorders (or something better) to archive it and distribute it for gain or mischief, cutting into their profits.

According to the DTCP Adopter's Agreement, the only copy-protected content which can be displayed over analog outputs without image constraint is stuff containing Image Constraint Tokens; the agreement only requires that Image Constraint Tokens be inserted in copy-protect material containing commercial interruptions, so that's probably the only place you'll see them.

The Agreement contains special provisions for PVRs: they are the only devices allowed to record "Copy Never" material at all, and then only in a temporary buffer for purposes of allowing the user to pause and to rewind through it--if he changes the channel, it will all get dumped; if they record "Copy One Generation" material, it will replay marked "Copy One Generation" (a VCR would have to replay it marked "Copy No More" and the replay could not be copied). This last is obviously to allow people to be able to archive stuff they catch with HD Tivos on HD D-VHS tape, but it also allows them to make multiple tape copies of the program, though only one at a time.

As I keep pointing out, per the Agreement, only subscription movie channels and pay-per-view may be broadcast with copy-protection flags. Rebroadcast OTA HDTV cannot be copy-protected, and any HD content in the vast majority of cable channels which have commercial interruptions, like Discovery and A&E, though it can be copy-protected, cannot be image-constrained. So, such HD recording devices as are introduced that do have analog HD outputs would be useful to non-copy-protected HD set owners who aren't much concerned with the pay cable and DBS movie channels.
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There really isn't much of a copyright issue here and it even opens up the possibility of more revenue for them. Let's say a big fight is on PPV. Of course the signal would be tagged "copy never" but a PVR could record it and allow a one time playback for those who would otherwise miss it.
Sorry, no such luck. If it's tagged "Copy Never" not even a PVR can archive it. It can hold a certain amount of it temporarily in a buffer (the buffer would be of a certain size, say 60 minutes, and when you reached the end of the buffer, the stuff at the beginning would be bagged to make room and if you changed channels, the whole thing is tossed), but that's it. Perhaps one-time, live pay-per-view events won't be broadcast "Copy Never", but "Copy One Generation" to allow time-shifting it; it's not like a very recent movie on pay-per-view where they're trying to sell recordings of it. However, people with non-copy-protected HD monitors will have to suffer image constraints if they order it and time-shift it (or if they watch it in real-time, for that matter).
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What scares the hell out of them is not DVHS, it's devices like the HiPix. Reason is once that file is in a standard format inside a standard operating system like WinXX, it can be very esily sent over the internet.
Why would they be scared of HiPix? If copy-protection is widely deployed, there won't be any HD sources of any value for HiPix to capture. All copy-protected HD video will only emerge from STBs of all kinds--HD cable boxes, HD DBS boxes, HD PVRs, HD D-VHS VCRs and HD DVD decks--transmitted over copy-protected digital connections. I don't think that the television studios will care too much if people trade recordings of their OTA HD shows around the net, and that's all that'll be available to devices like HiPix. Of course, they care some--they did shut down that Internet TV recording service, but I think a lot of that had more to do with the desire that people watch programming with ads from their market area than anything else.
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[/b]So it's in their best interest to promote "closed box" PVR's so more people don't buy these PC based devices. I think the average person would rather have a dedicated PVR versus one of these PC based "toys" that are difficult to use. Don't get me wrong, I have a HiPix and love it. But I live for this stuff.[/b]
I think that the average person would never be able to learn to use HiPix.

I believe that there will be HD PVRs. But they almost certainly will be copy protected, like all the HD VCRs emerging now. The ones that are integrated with cable or DBS tuners are likely to have analog HD connectors to support older HDTVs, but will have to apply image constraints to the limited set of material that I've described above.

[This message has been edited by michaeltscott (edited 09-25-2001).]

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post #6 of 20 Old 09-25-2001, 07:05 PM
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Why would they be scared of HiPix? If copy-protection is widely deployed, there won't be any HD sources of any value for HiPix to capture.
The MPAA says they are pushing copy protection because of fear of movies getting into the digital domain (through a card like HiPix) and then being Napster'ed all over the world. (Their real reason is probably to turn all movie channels into pay-per-view.)

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I think that the average person would never be able to learn to use HiPix.
So? Shortly Joe Six Pack's PC will be capable of software-based HDTV decoding, and so all he will need is a player (like a HDTV-RealPlayer) and a means of getting material (like a HDTV-Napster.) Joe can handle that.


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post #7 of 20 Old 09-26-2001, 08:28 AM
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There is no way in hell that the American public is going to put up with the MPAA restricting its current fair use copy freedoms. You can dance around with DTCP agreements, 5C, millions in campaign contributions etc. all you want, but IT DOESN'T MATTER. The public has the votes, and we are talking about laws passed by a Congress that REALLY likes being re-elected. HDCP/DTCP and 5C will only be problem until a utility that spoofs the HD PVR (or DVHS tape) into thinking a PC firewire connection is a TV is available. Sometime after that, the laws will be changed to something reasonable.

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post #8 of 20 Old 09-26-2001, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by MikeKO:

There is no way in hell that the American public is going to put up with the MPAA restricting its current fair use copy freedoms. You can dance around with DTCP agreements, 5C, millions in campaign contributions etc. all you want, but IT DOESN'T MATTER. The public has the votes, and we are talking about laws passed by a Congress that REALLY likes being re-elected. HDCP/DTCP and 5C will only be problem until a utility that spoofs the HD PVR (or DVHS tape) into thinking a PC firewire connection is a TV is available. Sometime after that, the laws will be changed to something reasonable.
We've been over and over and over this stuff, and I don't want to open the can of worms up again here, but the bottom line is that the DTLA has been very careful in the drafting of the Adopter's agreement not to step on the "Fair Use" rulings. With DTCP compliant equipment, you can time-shift all broadcast HD television for personal use, which is what those decisions were all about granting people the right to do. You cannot time-shift pay-per-view, but they seem to be prepared to go to the mat with the argument that pay-per-view does not fall under the umbrella of "broadcast television" and not allowing them to deliver it into people's homes without the customer being able to copy it constitutes restraint of trade, since it doesn't allow the development of cable and DBS business models for delivery of materials fresh enough to compete with hard-media rental companies like Blockbuster and Netflix.

And if you think that the public has any real power in this country, then you are truly naive. With the nearly unrestrained lobby system in Washington, we have goverment by big business, and have had such for decades. You can vote out the people who support the things that big business wants that you don't and big business will just buy the people you vote in. In any case, I really don't think that the "public" is going to care about this--due to the high expense of these things, less than 1% of the television buying market has invested in HD equipment of any kind. A little over a million HD sets had been sold at the end of Q1 (if you listen to liberal estimates --personally I think some of those 4:3 sets, while DTVs, aren't HDTVs); maybe as many as 1.5 million have been sold by now. This in a market where the dealers purchase over a million analog TVs in a slow month. By the time the prices drop to the point where Joe Six Pack starts to buy in, copy-protection will either be a fait accompli, or will have been rejected by the businesses involved for some reason independent of public pressure. If it does becomes widely deployed, most of the people who will ever own HD equipment will never know that there was ever HD equipment without it.

-- Mike Scott

[This message has been edited by michaeltscott (edited 09-26-2001).]

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post #9 of 20 Old 09-26-2001, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by PVR:
&gt;&gt; I think that the average person would never be able to learn to use HiPix.

Why? Whats so hard about a HiPix? Certainly a PC is less "user friendly" than a set top box, but the "average person" seems capable of working a PC these days.
My experience with friends who don't use computers much in their work is that they really can't handle anything much more complicated than Internet Explorer, and even that can be a challenge for them. That's why AOL does so very well. Now, that's changing, since most children learn to use a PC a bit by kindergarten. I remember that my friend's 14-year-old could boot DOS and type the command to get Windows 3.0 up and running when he was 3--he could just barely speak, but he could run his Mickey Mouse Windows games.
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Possibly one of the biggest things preventing the "Napsterization" of HiPix files is that the files are so huge that it isn't practical to consider sharing them over todays network connections.

A typical DSL or Cable modem has a 128Kbit/sec upload max which would require (I think) over a week to upload one 2 hour 14GB movie.
This is true--it would require 10.6 days by my calculations to upload a 14GB file at 128Kb/s. When I lived in Chicago, I had SDSL at $50/month that was the same speed up and down, over 700 Kbps--that would shorten the time considerably, but it would still take over two days, and that service was atypical. What you'd do is put the file on a portable USB drive, take it to work and upload it after hours using the company's T3 http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif.

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post #10 of 20 Old 09-26-2001, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Abdul Jalib:
The MPAA says they are pushing copy protection because of fear of movies getting into the digital domain (through a card like HiPix) and then being Napster'ed all over the world. (Their real reason is probably to turn all movie channels into pay-per-view.)
Turning all the movie channels into pay-per-view would be retarded and cause them to fail. Nobody's going to pay-per-view the year-old and older fare that gets shown on HBO and Showtime. I subscribe to HBO and Showtime on Time Warner in a package that gets me something else that I can't remember for less than the cost of both separately. I do this because of the series on HBO and (previously) on Showtime. Now that Showtime has lost Stargate and The Outer Limits to Sci Fi Channel, I'll probably dump it. I can't remember the last time I actually watched a movie broadcast on one of them--it happens occasionally, but I rent and buy so many discs that it's usually an interesting made-for-cable movie. If they made them pay-per-view, I'd ignore them and wouldn't miss them and I think that's true of most of the people I know.

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post #11 of 20 Old 09-26-2001, 09:16 PM
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&gt;&gt; I think that the average person would never be able to learn to use HiPix.

Why? Whats so hard about a HiPix? Certainly a PC is less "user friendly" than a set top box, but the "average person" seems capable of working a PC these days.

Possibly one of the biggest things preventing the "Napsterization" of HiPix files is that the files are so huge that it isn't practical to consider sharing them over todays network connections.

A typical DSL or Cable modem has a 128Kbit/sec upload max which would require (I think) over a week to upload one 2 hour 14GB movie.

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post #12 of 20 Old 10-06-2001, 12:48 AM
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What what WHAT?! Stargate going to Sci-Fi?! That sucks! I lose one of the prime reasons I had for getting an HD display this year -- ShoHD is showing Stargate in widescreen HD! Where'd you see this info?

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post #13 of 20 Old 10-06-2001, 11:04 AM
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We had a thread on this in HD Programming:
http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/Forum20/HTML/004599.html

I am with you, but Stargate's days on ShowtimeHD are probably numbered. Enjoy it while you can...it is my favorite HD show right now... http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/frown.gif

Quote:
Originally posted by JustMike:
What what WHAT?! Stargate going to Sci-Fi?! That sucks! I lose one of the prime reasons I had for getting an HD display this year -- ShoHD is showing Stargate in widescreen HD! Where'd you see this info?



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post #14 of 20 Old 10-06-2001, 03:42 PM
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Well, PUKE! At least the press reads like there *might* be one more season on SHO, depending upon what the heck season we're in presently and how many episodes (if any) remain.... Cable's offset seasons really make my head hurt sometimes... Thanks for the links.

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post #15 of 20 Old 10-06-2001, 04:40 PM
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Stargate on SHO-HD is an "upconvert" so it is not true HDTV.

Although it is 16:9 format it is a bit "blurry" because
it is stored on NTSC resolution tape media and then
upconverted for broadcast on SHO-HD.

I think the rumors of SG-1 moving to SCIFI may _not_
be confirmed. There was an old site people were
quoting but things may have changed since then.

It seems to be in reruns again, so lets hope we get
some more episodes for another season!
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post #16 of 20 Old 10-06-2001, 08:43 PM
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PVR:

Boy, I sure wish you were right but on the MGM owned Stargate SG-1 web site (www.stargate-Sg1.com/home/news/index.html) they currently have an announcement that says "Stargate SG-1 finds a new Home on SCI FI"....

Further, they say: "SCI FI Channel has completed a deal with MGM Television to produce 22 all new original episodes of the award-winning series Stargate SG-1. The series, which stars Richard Dean Anderson, will debut in its sixth season exclusively [emphasis added] on SCI FI in June 2002. The announcement was made today by Bonnie Hammer, President of the SCI FI Channel."

A similar announcement is on the SCI FI web site www.scifi.com/scifiwire/art-sfc.html?2001-08/14/12.30.sfc

Not good; not good at all.
sigh
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post #17 of 20 Old 10-07-2001, 12:14 AM
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Hmm - I guess the rumors _ARE_ true... drats.

Hopefully SCIFI-HD will go online by then!
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post #18 of 20 Old 10-08-2001, 04:45 PM
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What happened to that Zenith HD PVR they displayed last year?
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post #19 of 20 Old 10-08-2001, 11:34 PM
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It should be released late this year or early next was the last I heard (that was from the Ken ? (the HD programming moderator).

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post #20 of 20 Old 10-09-2001, 04:57 AM
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Latest from Zenith is no news on the HD PVR. I'll see if asking again gets us a new answer.

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