HDTV on DVD, Mpeg 2 or Mpeg4? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 14 Old 10-04-2001, 08:57 PM - Thread Starter
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I have been experimenting with the latest real time DVD recordings. Currently at MPEG2 format the DVD recordings using betacam SP source with Y/C transfer looks as good as a Y/C transfer of betacam to betacam. Not HDTV but does look especially good for a "home DVD recording" The DVD is not using mpeg4 standard. I believe this standard of mpeg is for internet video. I have seen it and it looks quite good using a T-1 connect speed. It looks about like VHS video quality which isn't bad for internet video. I had it playing here on my 120" screen from a Pentium Notebook computer with the screen at 1024X768.

Currently the only real way to do HDTV on media for consumers is DVHS. Soon you should be able to buy a JVC VCR for HDTV and then I understand Mark Cuban of HDNet fame will be selling packaged media over his website. It may be your first best way to obtain HDTV source.

How good is HDTV? Compared to some of the best Progressive scan DVD the HDTV will be quite a bit better on a few film transfers and most all true HDTV video shot programming. However, if your monitor is not up to HDTV quality you may feel that DVD Progressive scan looks about the same as HDTV.
You know that the weak link in the chain story holds for video in HDTV as well.

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post #2 of 14 Old 10-04-2001, 09:50 PM
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Dear member,

For I live in Holland, Europe, there is no satelite or cable to provide any HDTV signal either to klook or to copy.
I have a Barco 1200 projector and a computer, so if there was, I would be the first to try it.
DVD is stil in NTSC or Pal, so no Hi def. realy, but the best you can get here.
I am realy cureous how it looks.
Does anybody know if some HDTV footage could be copied to DVD with some result in Mpeg2 or has anybody succeeded in copying HDTV content in Mpeg4 on a DVD disk or cdrom?
Please let me know and if so please tell me how to get it.

Greetings

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post #3 of 14 Old 10-06-2001, 06:30 AM
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Thank you for your reply,
here mp4 is introduced http://www.wheeleraudio.com/nab2001.htm
regarding to this it should be perfect to contain HDTV for the bitrate will be lower and the resolution what you want.
For now I wil looking forwart to Mark Cuban of HDNet.

Regards

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post #4 of 14 Old 10-07-2001, 10:07 AM
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That's a good question. I have been doing my testing on a G4. MPEG-4 at 640x480 at 30fps is playable on a 450Mhz machine (based on the "Mhz myth" this is about the same at a Pentium III 900). However, MPEG-4 playback does NOT take advantage of the G4's AltiVec velocity engine (internal DSP). MPEG-4 at 1920 x 1080 at 30 fps (60i) would probably require a processor not currently available.

However (and this is a big however), the G4 (and Pentium) are general use processors. A DSP-like processor dedicated to MPEG-4 decoding would, of course, not need to be as fast. (just like the MPEG-2 dedicated processor in current DVD players)

As a rough estimate, I would say that Sorenson 3 would require less than half the processing power of MPEG-4 and would be able to store 30 to 50% more video at the same quality. (inversely speaking 30 to 50% better quality video at the same datarate).

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post #5 of 14 Old 10-07-2001, 11:53 AM
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That sounds interesting,
If you have a HDTV recording on harddisk (say a hi-res fampire slayer from broadcast/cable/satelite), it could be converted or directly be put on a DVD-rom or ram by a regular DVD recorder and indeed be read by a Sorensen-3 software-player I suppose?
So no blue laser or D-vhs medium needed.
And Mpeg 4 can it be used in case a regular chip has a regular (Mpeg-2) instruction-set?

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post #6 of 14 Old 10-07-2001, 12:25 PM
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Jeremy, is there anywhere I can get a MPEG4 decoder to try out. I currently have a dual PIII 1 gig, 1 gig of memory
system I can try to throw at it.
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post #7 of 14 Old 10-07-2001, 12:27 PM
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I wish I had a high res copy of Buffy the Vampire Slayer on disk, but unfortunately Buffy isn't broadcast in HD. I would, however, love to compress some HD in Sorenson 3, but I don't have access to a HiPix or similar. If somebody would like to send me a clip, I would be happy to make an attempt at Sorenson 3 HD and MPEG-4 HD. If you have a good sample of some hi-res HD footage, message me privately.

In November our company will have the ability to capture and edit full res uncompressed HDTV footage (both 1080i and 720p). We already own a Panasonic 720p variable frame rate HD camera and deck. I will do some significant testing then.

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post #8 of 14 Old 10-07-2001, 12:51 PM
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dave,
I am using Sorenson MPEG-4 (not to be confused with Sorenson 3). Sorenson MPEG-4 is not yet publicly available, I am on their private beta list. I believe there are some MPEG-4 codecs available for windows (I'm very much a Mac person so I don't follow windows video hardware and software.

Apple has announced that they are creating their own MPEG-4 codec that will be included in the next version of QuickTime.

But you can get Sorenson Video 3 (basic edtion) by simply downloading QuickTime 5. If you want the very best results possible you will need to get Sorenson Pro from www.sorenson.com

Jeremy

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post #9 of 14 Old 10-07-2001, 09:07 PM
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I have been doing a lot of experimenting with modern codecs including MPEG-4. IMO MPEG-4 is at least four times the quality of MPEG-2 at a given datarate. (Or inversely speaking one forth the datarate of MPEG-2 at the same quality).

However, when you push the frame size and frame rate up to standard NTSC the processor power needed to decode the MPEG-4 becomes quite high.

Theoretically HDTV could be encdoded with MPEG-4 and a movie would easily fit on a standard DVD-9, but the processor in this futuristic DVD player would have to be VERY fast.

As an interesting aside, I have determined that Sorenson 3 is much better than MPEG-4 with much lower processor requirements. I doubt a non-MPEG standard could possibly become a DVD standard, but I am going to Sorenson about the possibility.

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post #10 of 14 Old 10-07-2001, 09:40 PM
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What type of processor performance are you talking about?

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post #11 of 14 Old 10-08-2001, 06:59 AM
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Hmm, I think that a "modern" CODEC like MPEG-4 or anything similar could be a great way to achieve HD on DVD media - at least for pre-recorded material.

My experience from playing around with DVD to MPEG-4, has been somewhat dissatisfying. I guess going from one compressed format to another introduces even more compression artifacts...

OTOH, maybe true HDTV to MPEG-4 would work better, since HDTV has fewer visible compression artifacts to begin with.

Just my thoughts,
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post #12 of 14 Old 10-09-2001, 08:03 AM
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I just replied in probaby the wrong thread at http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/Forum28/HTML/000453.html about my experiments so far in using Divx4 MPEG4 to recompress some of the excellent PBS demo loop, to 960x544 @ 24p.

I'm also using Divx4 to compress my captured Buffy premier which I get in 1080i, upconv, not HD. But I'm using a lower resolution for that one, at half the bit rate.

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post #13 of 14 Old 10-09-2001, 08:38 AM
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From your other thread:

Quote:
Originally posted by trbarry:


With the 2 pass MPEG4 encoding using DivX4 I can get it in about 6 MB/second looking I think as good as at least some of the softer HD shows I've seen.

I assume you mean 6Mbit/sec not Bytes, since 6MBytes/sec is more than the MPEG-2 source. 6Mbits = 480 kBytes/sec, which means you are using 28 MBytes per minute which means you can fit 23 minutes on a CD-R and 164 minutes on a DVD-R (if my math is right).

Are you dropping frames? How fast is your PC?

Where do you live that you can get Buffy in UPCONV HD???? Can I move in? I can't even get a clean analog picture and audio at the same time. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/frown.gif It's sad when the best picture & sound I can get is via overcompressed Dish Network.

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[This message has been edited by JeremyNeish (edited 10-09-2001).]

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post #14 of 14 Old 10-09-2001, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
I assume you mean 6Mbit/sec not Bytes, since 6MBytes/sec is more than the MPEG-2 source. 6Mbits = 480 kBytes/sec, which means you are using 28 MBytes per minute which means you can fit 23 minutes on a CD-R and 164 minutes on a DVD-R (if my math is right).
Yes, of course it's Mb not MB. I edited the other post. Thanks.

Quote:
Are you dropping frames? How fast is your PC?
I can't process this stuff anywhere near in real time. It takes hours for a 15 minute segment. I can watch a 512x384x24 Buffy in real time with no problems but not (quite) a 960x544x24 HDTV show. I have an 866 mhz P-III PC133. I think if I used 2-pass Divx3 instead of Divx4 I could probably watch it okay, but at 6 M bits / sec I haven't yet gotten the quality as high. And 6 is the max.

Quote:
Where do you live that you can get Buffy in UPCONV HD???? Can I move in? I can't even get a clean analog picture and audio at the same time. It's sad when the best picture & sound I can get is via overcompressed Dish Network.
UPN here in Detroit is sending most everything on their digital channel in 1080i, even though they don't do any HD at all, it's just NTSC with more lines. And the reception is chancy, I may have just gotten lucky capturing 2 hours with no major dropouts. But for capture purposes digital is still definately better.

Fox here does the same thing with 720p. Even their 480p shows arrive in 720p for some reason. And my Fox reception is even worse recently.

I'm working around a lot of things but I'm really not very pleased now with my WinTV-HD card reception.

- Tom

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[This message has been edited by trbarry (edited 10-11-2001).]

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