JVC HM-DH30000U D-VHS Digital Video Recorder - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 48 Old 09-18-2001, 07:59 AM - Thread Starter
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The JVC recorder just announced looks great. The one thing that concerns me is the 1394 input. I thought that input can't accept a full HD data flow, only compressed. What happens to OTA signals to be recorded? Will they need to be compressed so that playback will be lower quality? Also, does anyone have feedback when STB's with 1394 or DVI will be out. It seems you can't use this deck unless that is available. Feedback would be appreciated. Thanks. Steve

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post #2 of 48 Old 09-18-2001, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by sdf777:
Also, does anyone have feedback when STB's with 1394 or DVI will be out. It seems you can't use this deck unless that is available.
You can use it if you have one of the new Mitsubishi or Sony sets with 1394/DTCP connectors and integrated ATSC tuners shipping this Fall and Winter--Sony's KD-34XBR2, a 34" direct-view, has been shipping for a couple of months, and Mitsubishi's first, a 55" RPTV, the WT-55859 is due out next month (according to Gary Merson in the September issue of The Perfect Vision). The recorder can have the television tune something for it to record.

I suspect that it will be possible to record something and watch something else simultaneously--looking at MPEG-2 TS, it shouldn't be very hard to reconstitute two or more elementary MPEG-2 streams at the same time, especially if you're only going to decode the one that you're displaying (the one being recorded should stay compressed, anyway). I'll be surprised if these devices don't allow this, since Sony and Mitsubishi seem to favor the "only put an MPEG decoder in the monitor" model.


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post #3 of 48 Old 09-18-2001, 09:24 PM
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The HDTV signal IS compressed.

IEEE 1394 has more than enough bandwidth to cary the signal.

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DFAST has nothing to do with stopping piracy and every thing to do with making you pay EVERY TIME you watch a movie.

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post #4 of 48 Old 09-26-2001, 01:25 PM
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I notice that JVC seems to have dropped the DVI output in favor of IEEE1394 and Component.

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post #5 of 48 Old 09-26-2001, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hot:
I notice that JVC seems to have dropped the DVI output in favor of IEEE1394 and Component.
You know, when I read that 9/7 press-release , I could have sworn that it claimed that the VCR would have 1394/DTCP connections and DVI/HDCP and analog HD component video outputs. Strange that they're not supporting DVI on this, since it's the only copy-protected input into their only copy-protected monitor, D'Ahlia--I'll bet that anyone who's bought one of those and understands that announcement is pissed. I swear, sometimes it seems like these big companies are separated into development groups that don't ever talk to each other.

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[This message has been edited by michaeltscott (edited 09-26-2001).]

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post #6 of 48 Old 10-06-2001, 12:44 AM
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At CES last year, they were demonstrating the D'Ahlia with a D-VHS deck playing Hollywood movies, and trumpeting what a wonderful thing it was that they would be bringing the technology to market that would let Hollywood feel safe distributing their content for rental/sale.

So, at least in January, they had a set with a DVI output on it. If it's not there now, then they deliberately removed it.

Clearly I'm going to have a very interesting discussion with the JVC folks at CES in January. It will be amusing to see how they spin it.

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post #7 of 48 Old 10-06-2001, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
I swear, sometimes it seems like these big companies are separated into development groups that don't ever talk to each other.

-- Mike Scott
There is a lot more truth to this statement than you know. Having worked for a large consumer electronics company, I can tell you from direct experience that the different groups (CRT, LCD, VCR, DVD, etc.) do not have much, if any, communication between themselves.

This was recently reinforced by a comment at CEDIA from a Sony display representative. I asked if the new Sony cable STB would have analog HDTV output, to make it compatible with their new Grand Wega LCD HDTV. His answer was "I don't know, you would have to ask them. We don't have anything to do with their group". Hard to believe, but true.


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post #8 of 48 Old 10-07-2001, 08:25 PM
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Is there a Firewire to DVI gender bender interface box?

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post #9 of 48 Old 10-07-2001, 08:42 PM
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I know this is a long shot, but figure I have to ask. Any idea if the D-VHS tapes that I made on my HM-DSR100M (Dish 5000 w/integrated D-VHS deck) would be playable by the new JVC? I believe that the data is decrypted when it's stored on the tape, so it should be straight(?) MPEG-2 that could be fed into the video display.

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post #10 of 48 Old 10-07-2001, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Foxbat:
I know this is a long shot, but figure I have to ask. Any idea if the D-VHS tapes that I made on my HM-DSR100M (Dish 5000 w/integrated D-VHS deck) would be playable by the new JVC? I believe that the data is decrypted when it's stored on the tape, so it should be straight(?) MPEG-2 that could be fed into the video display.

I have one of those old JVC's also and I was curious about the same thing. So I tried playing one of those tapes, and it DOES NOT work. The audio comes through but there is no video. I have the Japanese version (JVC HM-DH30000) but I think that the U.S. version will probably not work either.

Bernhard




[This message has been edited by bb1987 (edited 10-07-2001).]
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post #11 of 48 Old 10-08-2001, 12:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Foxbat:
I know this is a long shot, but figure I have to ask. Any idea if the D-VHS tapes that I made on my HM-DSR100M (Dish 5000 w/integrated D-VHS deck) would be playable by the new JVC? I believe that the data is decrypted when it's stored on the tape, so it should be straight(?) MPEG-2 that could be fed into the video display.

I assume you mean the old SDTV Dish?DVHJS UNIT. This was a 14.4mbs recorder that recorded the DVB bit stream. Much like the PVR502 and Dish players do except to hard disk instaed of tape.

The MPEG2 signal recorded on the PVHD1000 is the ATSC MPEG2 stream at 19.3mbs, a different animal though still MPEG2 compression. The new JVC decks are 5C compliant. It is questionable if PVHD1000 tapes will even play and if so, how
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post #12 of 48 Old 10-08-2001, 03:51 AM
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So will this new player output HD component using the prerecorded HD movies that are supposed to be released in the near future, or will it be down-rezzed on the component outputs?

Brian
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post #13 of 48 Old 10-08-2001, 12:18 PM
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Foxbat:
I know this is a long shot, but figure I have to ask. Any idea if the D-VHS tapes that I made on my HM-DSR100M (Dish 5000 w/integrated D-VHS deck) would be playable by the new JVC? I believe that the data is decrypted when it's stored on the tape, so it should be straight(?) MPEG-2 that could be fed into the video display.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have both the HM-DSR100M and the JVC 30000 (Japanese version) and have many D-VHS tapes made with the HM_DSR100M. They all play perfectly (both audio and video)on the 30000. At the CES show, last January, I asked the JVC rep who was demonstrating a prototype US version of the 30000, if it would digital tapes made on the HM-DSR100M, and his response was yes.

Hope this helps.
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post #14 of 48 Old 10-08-2001, 12:29 PM
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I am new to all this so please bear with me here.

I have a RCA DTC-100 DirectV receiver.

Can I use this JVC digital player to recond HD off of the Satellite???

Once I get it recorded, can I play it on a digital front projector, using component input/outputs??

This recorder looks very good to me.

I am also assuming that the Standard recordig speed, nit the extended one, will capture NTSC at the highest resolution possible??

Thanks,

-- Cain

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post #15 of 48 Old 10-08-2001, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by BrianC:
So will this new player output HD component using the prerecorded HD movies that are supposed to be released in the near future, or will it be down-rezzed on the component outputs?

Brian
It is a possiblity. The 5C standard must conatin the hardware to do it. But is does not have to be used. That is up to the content owner. Popular opinion is that constrained image over analog will be used at least on first run material. They could also delay this since there are very few 5C equipped receivers. Meaning your initial DVHS purchases may be full resolution on analog but two years down the road tapes will be constrained.


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post #16 of 48 Old 10-08-2001, 03:54 PM
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Cain,

No...you cannot use any of the existing HD STB's to provide the HD signal to the JVC DVHS VCR. The reason why is that it will only accept a 1394/5C "Firewire" input. No STB on the market has one of those.

The only way to get the signal to this unit is to buy a new Sony or Mits HDTV display with the built in OTA HD tuner and which both have inputs and outputs of 1394/5C.

in your case, you would be spending $2000 for a VHS VCR.

Lee
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post #17 of 48 Old 10-08-2001, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Orio:
quote:I have both the HM-DSR100M and the JVC 30000 (Japanese version) and have many D-VHS tapes made with the HM_DSR100M. They all play perfectly (both audio and video)on the 30000. At the CES show, last January, I asked the JVC rep who was demonstrating a prototype US version of the 30000, if it would digital tapes made on the HM-DSR100M, and his response was yes.
Do they play through the component outputs? I didn't try it though the S Video or Video connections since I don't have my units connected that way, but it certainly did not work via the component outputs. Did you change any settings to make this work. They don't play back on any of my units and I have 2 30000's.

Bernhard



[This message has been edited by bb1987 (edited 10-08-2001).]
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post #18 of 48 Old 10-08-2001, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by CINERAMAX:
Is there a Firewire to DVI gender bender interface box?

Not as yet. Such a thing could "legally" (within the bounds of the DTCP Adopter's Agreement) be made, but it would be mildly expensive (probably a couple hundred bucks, minimum) and difficult to market to a very limited potential group of buyers.

It would need connectors for both Firewire and DVI (two Firewire connectors, to allow for daisy-chaining), encrypting/decrypting interface chipsets for both and a DSP (or a fairly fast GP CPU) for performing the authentication math within the allowed delays and running the state machine for DTCP (HDCP, somewhat simpler and notably weaker protection, is implemented entirely in the interface chips), and an MPEG decoder capable of handling HD bitrates--1394/DTCP carries a (possibly encrypted) MPEG stream and DVI/HDCP carries a (possibly encrypted) digital raster. Probably well over $100 worth of parts, certainly at the kind of volume you could expect to sell such a thing at (in fact, as I think about it, I'm probably underestimating the cost by quite a bit). A niche product, but if we see many more DVI/HDCP interfaces on displays, I expect it'll appear, or the function will be subsumed by expensive high-end sound equipment.

-- Mike Scott


[This message has been edited by michaeltscott (edited 10-08-2001).]

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post #19 of 48 Old 10-08-2001, 09:21 PM
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I just take the tapes which I made with the HM-DSR100M and play them back in the 30000. I can view the video from the 30000 over both the S-VHS and component outputs. I use the digital toslink audio output, though the audio is also available on the analog outputs.

If you are having trouble, I suspect that the 30000 menu settings are not compatable. I know I spent some time setting them up, especially the audio. If you still have trouble, I'll need to do some screen captures or somehow write the relevant settings down down.

Hope this helps.

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post #20 of 48 Old 10-08-2001, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Orio:
I just take the tapes which I made with the HM-DSR100M and play them back in the 30000. I can view the video from the 30000 over both the S-VHS and component outputs. I use the digital toslink audio output, though the audio is also available on the analog outputs.
That would work for me. I've been wondering if I would need to keep the HM-DSR100M around and it looks like the answer is no. Now, if Dish comes out with a Firewire module for the 6000, I wonder if that would provide a playback path through the 6000 for the old D-VHS tapes. I missed the Tech forum tonight, so I'm going to check the DBS and DishPVR Forums...

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post #21 of 48 Old 10-09-2001, 07:15 AM
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So are people saying these is no way the panasonic DST50 or 51 can connect fire wire to the new JVC deck and work?

dave
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post #22 of 48 Old 10-09-2001, 10:08 AM
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Richard, you might want to keep your HM-DSR100M because it is the only way to digitally record standard definition television. The Japanese 30000 will digitally record (throught the firewire input) HDTV from the DST-50/51 with the Dish HDTV RF modulator. That modulator will only provide output for programs which are HDTV(even though some HDTV programs have a Dolby prologic audio stream) or standard definition with a DD audio stream. Hence the only way that I know of to digitally record all the non-HDTV DN programming is with the HM-DSR100M.

Dave, the Japanese version does record the firewire bit stream (see above). I personally do not know how the US version might differ.

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post #23 of 48 Old 10-09-2001, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by h2ofun:
So are people saying these is no way the panasonic DST50 or 51 can connect fire wire to the new JVC deck and work?

dave
I don't see where anyone in this thread has said this.

Elsewhere I've speculated that, if the DST50/51s have certain defects in their implementation of DTCP (i.e., if they do stuff like output copy-protected content without Image Constraint Tokens from a VCR in full HD over their analog outputs) they might be put on the Certificate Revocation Lists of new DTCP compliant devices and those devices would therefore refuse to talk to them. However, we have no evidence as yet that this is the case. I'm sure that when they're release someone (or two or three http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif) in this forum will try the combination together and report back to us.

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post #24 of 48 Old 10-09-2001, 08:55 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by michaeltscott:
Quote:
Elsewhere I've speculated that, if the DST50/51s have certain defects in their implementation of DTCP (i.e., if they do stuff like output copy-protected content without Image Constraint Tokens from a VCR in full HD over their analog outputs) they might be put on the Certificate Revocation Lists of new DTCP compliant devices and those devices would therefore refuse to talk to them. However, we have no evidence as yet that this is the case.
Several folks here, including myself, have attempted to display 1394 output from the (Japanese) JVC through Panny 50 and 51 STB's without success. At the same time the PV-HD1000's have no problem accepting the JVC output.

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post #25 of 48 Old 10-09-2001, 09:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by gridleak:
Several folks here, including myself, have attempted to display 1394 output from the (Japanese) JVC through Panny 50 and 51 STB's without success. At the same time the PV-HD1000's have no problem accepting the JVC output.
So you can make copies of JVC tapes to the Panasonic decks and play them on the TU-DST50s & 51s? Interesting. Ken H. has asserted that the Panasonics spoke a proprietary lingo over 1394--maybe they just spoke it between themselves (with the TU-DST5x's understanding only it) and the PV-HD1000 being able to talk DTCP as well.

If Mark Cuban's upcoming HD prerecorded Hollywood films are copy-protected, it will be interesting to see if the Panasonic will comply with the copy-protection. As a compliant sink, it should refuse to copy "Copy Never" content. Also, will you be able to play these tapes, which might be "Copy Never" content, through the TU-DST5x's at full HD resolution?

-- Mike Scott

[This message has been edited by michaeltscott (edited 10-10-2001).]

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post #26 of 48 Old 10-10-2001, 05:41 PM
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So how does the picture look if you record an analog signal with a digital tape? Is it better that just recording it with a svhs recorder? I want to start cataloging some of my favorite shows from my digital cable (which of course doesn't have 1394 ouput) and am just curios if it is worth the extra money, or should I just buy a new jvc svhs recorder? Of course someday when dishnetwork comes out with a box that has the 1394 ouput, I will then get that.
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post #27 of 48 Old 10-10-2001, 09:33 PM
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EWhat is dealer cost? or Retail?

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post #28 of 48 Old 10-11-2001, 05:44 AM
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The owner's manual for the HM-DH30000U is now on-line at http://www.jvcservice.com/.
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post #29 of 48 Old 10-11-2001, 08:11 AM
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The playback of DTV/HDTV from DVHS is identical to the original, there is no difference between viewing it as the broadcast takes place or from the tape at a later time.

This unit will also encode NTSC for digital 480i recording in 3 different modes. The HD mode uses 28.2 Mbps, the STD mode uses 14.1 Mbps and the LS3 mode only uses 4.7 Mbps. The first 2 modes will have no trouble with playback for a perfect NTSC copy. I'm not sure about the LS3 mode, I'd have to see it before passing judgement.


Current list price is just under $2000, expected street price will be closer to $1500.

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post #30 of 48 Old 10-11-2001, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jblair:
The owner's manual for the HM-DH30000U is now on-line at http://www.jvcservice.com/.
Hey, thanks!

Well, that confirms it: no DVI/HDCP connector. Silly buggers--so much for their D'Ahlia customers.

Also, only one 1394 connector. This thing has to be at one end or the other of your network, and if you use it, you can't make a ring. I guess it doesn't matter--the interface can just repeat anything not intended for it back upstream out the same port. It is, however, a poor precedent--if other companies decide to put only one connector on their products, you could unwittingly end up with three devices with one connector and one with two and there'd be no way to connect them all together. All of the televisions announced and shipping so far, the Mitsubishi VCR and Sony's cable STB have two ports--this stuff is meant to be daisy chained. JVC even knows this--they show it in diagrams on page 59. Maybe it's all the money they spent implementing useless connections like their proprietary JLIP computer interface.

I can't see where this thing has any real appeal for anyone who is going to buy a copy-protected set, who does not already own an analog-only one (like me), or who already owns one of the 1394/DTCP equiped Sonys. It is useful in that it is essentially an "adapter" from 1394/DTCP to HD analog component video--though I'm not sure that you can monitor it in realtime, the way you can monitor tuned coax or composite line video through an NTSC VCR without recording. You should, however, be able to record anything from a 1394/DTCP-only HD source and play it back in full HD over its component video outputs, unless it was copy-protected without Image Constraint Tokens, in which case, as a DTCP compliant device, it would have to constrain the image.

But for people buying a new set with 1394/DTCP inputs, this unit would have little advantage (unless, perhaps, you wanted to copy DV-format camcorder video onto D-VHS), and will probably always cost a lot more than Mitsubishi's dumber model without embedded MPEG decoder and HD analog outputs--it lists for twice as much.

-- Mike Scott

[This message has been edited by michaeltscott (edited 10-11-2001).]

Mike Scott (XBL: MikeHellion, PSN: MarcHellion)

"Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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