Sony DHG-HDD250/500: Official Thread - Page 463 - AVS Forum
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post #13861 of 29330 Old 02-24-2009, 05:50 PM
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Howdy All,
Last night I went to add another program to the list of upcoming shows to record, and the unit locked up. It finally rebooted itself after about 2 mins and upon checking I had lost all of my upcoming scheduled recordings. I estimate at the time there was around the 22 shows scheduled to be recorded over the next 8 days. Most of the shows were set to record weekly.

Anyone else run into something similar when setting up a large number of shows to record?

Thanks
MK
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post #13862 of 29330 Old 02-24-2009, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jayhawkram View Post

Hey Mark,
No luck here either. I have stayed locked on 12-1 for several days now, but no new listings.
Scott

Scott,

I just sent an email to feedback@kwch.com, asking them if they would look into it. I hope they pass it on to an Engineer, and don't just send me a "You need to buy a converter box to continue receiving our signal" automated response. My G* Test last night was a bust because I forgot to turn off "Auto Off". I'll try it again tonight.

Mark
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post #13863 of 29330 Old 02-24-2009, 06:53 PM
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I live in the Providence RI area and have a 250 connected to both OTA and COX cable. I have not found a channel which passes the G* test for VBI. Does a digital channel show VBI updates and VBI pass status? My firmware version is 08.06.44. This area turned off all the OTA analog channels on 2/17. The local CBS channel is owned by LIN TV and I've read LIN does not intend to support TVGOS. The COX technical help people have no idea what TVGOS is and insist it is not their problem.
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post #13864 of 29330 Old 02-24-2009, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnjohn View Post

I live in the Providence RI area and have a 250 connected to both OTA and COX cable. I have not found a channel which passes the G* test for VBI. Does a digital channel show VBI updates and VBI pass status? This area turned off all the OTA analog channels on 2/17. The local CBS channel is owned by LIN TV and I've read LIN does not intend to support TVGOS. The COX technical help people have no idea what TVGOS is and insist it is not their problem.

Can you receive WBZ from Boston? It is sending TVGOS in both its digital (Ch 30) and analog (Ch 4) transmissions.
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post #13865 of 29330 Old 02-24-2009, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by OKCrew View Post

osu1991 and NE OK (Tulsa) readers...

Came home tonight and my 2 DHG-HDD250s had correct times. The living room box has cable 98 (Fox 23) as host and the MBR box has OTA 23 as host.

The living room box I had used to search VBI so I had lost the guide settings totally. When I hit the guide button it prompted me to choose my programming provider (Cox Digital via CableCard) and went right to the guide. Guide totally populated 8 days out. I just have to clean the guide up again.

The MBR never lost the guide but was using up the days it still had populated and the time was off with me messing with it.

Not sure if we will have Fox and PBS both as guide sources when OETA/TVGOS gets their act together. I'm just happy I have a guide now and probable for the future. I didn't want to have to replace the Sonys. Can't stand the motorola boxes and cablecard is much cheaper. The picture is much better from the Sonys as well.

I have been at a meeting at the Capitol all day and just got home. Turned the Sony on to see if I had listings past today as this was the last of the listings I got before the shutoff last week. I noticed I did and thought well OETA got it going today, then I saw the same thing, I have analog 23 for a host. I have another email from the engineers at OETA saying they are close to getting the digital version going. I don't why it suddenly showed up on FOX23., but OETA is going to be the digital host.
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post #13866 of 29330 Old 02-25-2009, 05:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FPEMiller View Post

Howdy All,
Last night I went to add another program to the list of upcoming shows to record, and the unit locked up. It finally rebooted itself after about 2 mins and upon checking I had lost all of my upcoming scheduled recordings. I estimate at the time there was around the 22 shows scheduled to be recorded over the next 8 days. Most of the shows were set to record weekly.

Anyone else run into something similar when setting up a large number of shows to record?

Thanks
MK

There is no practical limit that I am aware of. I just checked our box and we have 23 shows to record. I know a couple of times it has been over 3 screens to "record", that is 13 shows per screen.

If your unit is locking up, it most likely needs "full factory reset" - 9012 that would include reformating the hard drive, etc. Once I did that a few weeks ago, it has been 100% perfect ever since. Our host is PBS analogue 8-0 here. We will not be able to attempt Digital CBS until after June 12th.
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post #13867 of 29330 Old 02-25-2009, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Wally1912 View Post

Can you receive WBZ from Boston? It is sending TVGOS in both its digital (Ch 30) and analog (Ch 4) transmissions.

I do not get WBZ on COX cable and I recieve a very weak signal OTA. The OTA signal does pass the G* test but it does have quite a few VBI errors and will not lock in on to use to get TVGOS data.
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post #13868 of 29330 Old 02-25-2009, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonPerson View Post

There is no practical limit that I am aware of. I just checked our box and we have 23 shows to record. I know a couple of times it has been over 3 screens to "record", that is 13 shows per screen.

If your unit is locking up, it most likely needs "full factory reset" - 9012 that would include reformating the hard drive, etc. Once I did that a few weeks ago, it has been 100% perfect ever since. Our host is PBS analogue 8-0 here. We will not be able to attempt Digital CBS until after June 12th.

DO THE FULL FACTORY RESET ONLY AS A LAST RESORT! You will lose all of your programming recorded to your hard drive(s). The lockup problem is well documented in this thread and there are less drastic ways to recover from it. First try a soft reset followed by rescanning your channels and reentering your setup information. The exact procedure is documented in this thread. If that doesn't fix the problem, you can try a factory reset of TVGOS and rebuild the guide information. Neither of these procedures will erase your recorded programming. The second procedure may affect one of your personal preference settings. Almost all lockup problems can be corrected using these less destructive methods.
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post #13869 of 29330 Old 02-25-2009, 09:10 AM
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Here's a question for you.....is it possible for me to hook-up a small indoor OTA antenna for this unit (for Guide-Only purposes) and continue to use my cablecard?

Today is my last day of listings and I can't seem to get a response from Brighthouse or the local CBS affiliate. Of course, the Macrovision site says that everything is ok in my area - NOT ! And the local PBS station turned off their analog feed.
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post #13870 of 29330 Old 02-25-2009, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SonyWinner View Post

Here's a question for you.....is it possible for me to hook-up a small indoor OTA antenna for this unit (for Guide-Only purposes) and continue to use my cablecard?

Today is my last day of listings and I can't seem to get a response from Brighthouse or the local CBS affiliate. Of course, the Macrovision site says that everything is ok in my area - NOT ! And the local PBS station turned off their analog feed.

This should work if you can receive a channel that has either analog or digital TVGOS.
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post #13871 of 29330 Old 02-25-2009, 11:19 AM
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When I do the 753159852 test the firmware status is 08.01.42/08.06.44/00.00.00/0000012C/64/0000. When I do the G* factory test it says Version: 08.01.42. Is the G* test supposed to be Version 08.06.44 in order to work with a digital channel? I am reluctant to do the Reset to Factory Default because I do not have an analog channel to update the firmware.
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post #13872 of 29330 Old 02-25-2009, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ImTheOne View Post

DO THE FULL FACTORY RESET ONLY AS A LAST RESORT! You will lose all of your programming recorded to your hard drive(s). The lockup problem is well documented in this thread and there are less drastic ways to recover from it. First try a soft reset followed by rescanning your channels and reentering your setup information. The exact procedure is documented in this thread. If that doesn't fix the problem, you can try a factory reset of TVGOS and rebuild the guide information. Neither of these procedures will erase your recorded programming. The second procedure may affect one of your personal preference settings. Almost all lockup problems can be corrected using these less destructive methods.

I guess it depends on what you call as destructive.......yes you will loose your recorded programs; but with all the areas going through multiple stages of DTV transition..............and many users attempting to "force" digital downloads, the internal software can get messed up (as it did with me AND many others); and hence the full reset (which is not destructive at all), will cure the lock up problems.


By all means try the less painful methods, soft reset, tvguide resets etc. and use the full factory reset as your last choice...............that does work and it works just fine.
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post #13873 of 29330 Old 02-25-2009, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnjohn View Post

When I do the 753159852 test the firmware status is 08.01.42/08.06.44/00.00.00/0000012C/64/0000. When I do the G* factory test it says Version: 08.01.42. Is the G* test supposed to be Version 08.06.44 in order to work with a digital channel? I am reluctant to do the Reset to Factory Default because I do not have an analog channel to update the firmware.

It has been stated on this forum that the G* test, irregardless of which upgraded firmware version you have downloaded and installed, ALWAYS shows the original firmware version installed when your unit was manufactured, in your case 08.01.42. Don't do a reset for this.
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post #13874 of 29330 Old 02-25-2009, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnjohn View Post

When I do the 753159852 test the firmware status is 08.01.42/08.06.44/00.00.00/0000012C/64/0000. When I do the G* factory test it says Version: 08.01.42. Is the G* test supposed to be Version 08.06.44 in order to work with a digital channel? I am reluctant to do the Reset to Factory Default because I do not have an analog channel to update the firmware.


The G* test screen always shows the "base" installed version. As long as you see 08.06.44 on the 753.... screen, you're fine.

Edit. I see someone types faster than I do.
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post #13875 of 29330 Old 02-25-2009, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by HoustonPerson View Post

I guess it depends on what you call as destructive.......yes you will loose your recorded programs; but with all the areas going through multiple stages of DTV transition..............and many users attempting to "force" digital downloads, the internal software can get messed up (as it did with me AND many others); and hence the full reset (which is not destructive at all), will cure the lock up problems.


By all means try the less painful methods, soft reset, tvguide resets etc. and use the full factory reset as your last choice...............that does work and it works just fine.

I meant destructive in that it wipes the contents of your hard drive(s), not that it harms your recorder or software. What I was trying to say was when dealing with lockup problems it is best to start with the simplest solution and work towards the method of last resort rather than starting there. I have read the entire thread including your many posts and sympathize with the problems that you and many others have experienced, but I don't think that one should assume the internal software has been corrupted until the generally successful methods have failed to correct a problem and there are no longer any other alternatives. The post wasn't intended as a criticism.
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post #13876 of 29330 Old 02-25-2009, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by ImTheOne View Post

. The post wasn't intended as a criticism.

No problem none taken, all kewl
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post #13877 of 29330 Old 02-25-2009, 01:55 PM
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Hi All:
Love my 500 and worried regardless of some time ago - assurances by Sony tech staff that these units will be able to use digital data after switchover. I also in Prov RI area and within last week noticing progressive loss of listings. From full 192 hrs to now approx 150 hrs. question: How much does presence and ability of clock to reset itself correctly - indicate that unit is receiving signal it can use? Does clock mean it will also be able to get program data as well? On slicing diagnostic page - there is data under both B and C categories yet host channel has big O. I was hoping would be able to forego psuedo engineering (me) trip - but starting to look like I'll have to come out of
my titanium haliographic homogenizer bag. And to think I just wanted to watch a little Judge Judy (in high def - on my schedule).
Regards,
Barry
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post #13878 of 29330 Old 02-25-2009, 03:33 PM
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Just When You Thought It Was Safe ...

Earlier I expressed some concern about these recorders continuing to work after the digital transition due to issues with obtaining correct clock data. I was temporarily relieved when Reldnips indicated that one of two OTA machines using a digital host channel was receiving clock data from a digital channel. However, I have new concerns for those of us who are strictly OTA (this may also apply to cable as well), again related to what will happen if any of us concurrently experience the loss of both the host channel and the time. Recently, I started the procedure to reacquire a digital host channel on a recorder that reverted to an analog host channel and realized that there is a "deadly embrace" situation involved.

M8B assurances not withstanding, the problem is as follows. These recorders currently receive clock data over an analog channel, which may or may not be the same as the host channel (on one of my recorders they are the same and on the other recorder they are different). While there is a means to force a recorder to a digital host channel, I am not aware of a way to force the clock channel to a digital channel. It has been demonstrated that a recorder using a digital host channel can obtain clock data from a digital channel. However, I am not aware of anyone who has successfully demonstrated that one of these recorders can acquire a digital clock channel on its own after a reset. In any instance where both the host channel and time data are lost (such as a TVGOS reset, a power failure?, or a full factory reset), the TVGOS software reverts to the default version (08.01.42 for most of us), which cannot acquire data from a digital source. Usually the next steps are to acquire the intermediate version of the software (8.05.40) that does allow reception of digital source information, which in turn allows the acquisition of the latest version of the software (08.06.44 currently) as well as the channel listings and guide information. Once this occurs, we know that the recorder can receive clock data from a digital source.

But, here's the rub. After one of the aforementioned resets, the clock data is initially incorrect. Without a clock channel, the clock cannot be set correctly. Even if the recorder can locate a digital clock channel on its own (which has yet to be demonstrated), the default software won't recognize data from the digital channel. Without the correct time, the downloads do not occur. Without the downloads, the software will not recognize digital source information and, therefore, cannot update the software, obtain the channel list, obtain the guide listings, or update the clock information.

While forcing my recorder to a digital host channel, I tuned it to the local digital CBS channel (which I have successfully used as a host in the past) and left it on overnight (with the time still wrong from the reset). The following day I still had not received the intermediate software update (despite several update cycles having passed). I then turned the recorder off and allowed it to get the time from an analog source. When I turned it back on, I received the intermediate software update within a couple of hours.

As I see it there are three solutions to this issue. The first and easiest (since we have direct control of this method) is a VCR backup tape of an analog broadcast containing VBI information, which someone (I don't remember who) suggested much earlier in this thread. The second (more difficult, but still under our control) is to time the reset so that the clock is very close to (if not exactly on) the correct time (remember, the recorders operate on an offset to GMT) (Also, I'm not sure this will work since the default date is in 1994). The third solution is to change the default guide software in the recorder's memory, which may require an update from Sony and/or Macrovision. There is a Sony firmware update that can be applied via the USB port on the back of the recorders (not related to this issue). It may be possible to get Sony to issue a Macrovision supplied default TVGOS software update that can be applied in the same manner. This would permanently correct the problem. I have not experimented with the hidden Reset, Commit, Save, and Restore Flash Memory commands or the Commit All Data command, but if they allow access to the TVGOS software, we may be able to do this ourselves. Has anyone been brave enough to fool around with these commands? If so, what have you found out about the data they can access?

I'm sure I have a blank VCR tape around here somewhere.
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post #13879 of 29330 Old 02-25-2009, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheneyp View Post

This should work if you can receive a channel that has either analog or digital TVGOS.

I know that local CBS transmits on 6.1, which I should be able to receive via the OTA antenna. My question now is how do I go about hookup? I'm a cable girl.....will I need a splitter? Or is the OTA hookup separate? Can both hookups be achieved at the same time?
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post #13880 of 29330 Old 02-25-2009, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SonyWinner View Post

I know that local CBS transmits on 6.1, which I should be able to receive via the OTA antenna. My question now is how do I go about hookup? I'm a cable girl.....will I need a splitter? Or is the OTA hookup separate? Can both hookups be achieved at the same time?

A nice feature of the Sony DVR is it has both Cable and Antenna input so both will be connected at the same time. Connect your antenna and perform a channel scan.
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post #13881 of 29330 Old 02-25-2009, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SonyWinner View Post

I know that local CBS transmits on 6.1, which I should be able to receive via the OTA antenna. My question now is how do I go about hookup? I'm a cable girl.....will I need a splitter? Or is the OTA hookup separate? Can both hookups be achieved at the same time?

There are separate inputs on the back of the DVR for cable and OTA. You can have both simultaneously, one line from your cable source and a separate line form your OTA antenna.

Phil
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post #13882 of 29330 Old 02-25-2009, 05:22 PM
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ImTheOne, I know this may not calm your fears entirely but..
As previously posted my two 500's, OTA only were using 0-11 and 0-2 as hosts.
Both crapped out at the same time leaving me with days 7 and 8 empty.
I did the G*test on both and left them on CBS 2-1 over night.
Both got all data back and both clocks were fine. Hosts showed nothing and time set showed fffffffd and failing clock station showed fffffffd. I left them on another night and lost 2 or 3 listings on day 8, clocks still fine. Left them on a third night but one was set to 5-1, (Duh) that machine lost days 7 and 8 of listings but the other was fine, clocks still OK. Last night I made sure both were on 2-1. All listings are back and clocks are fine. Still show no host for either and both show fffffffd for both set and failing clock stations. Not sure this helps but anytime I've lost the clock, VBI from 2-1 always got it back in seconds. To me this means it will get listings and clock data from digital CBS.
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post #13883 of 29330 Old 02-25-2009, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by ImTheOne View Post

.............. Has anyone been brave enough ................... ?

Your name volunteers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . YOU !!!

Don't ever make the MISTAKE of buying a Samsung TV..
They consider THIS
normal on a two month old set..
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post #13884 of 29330 Old 02-25-2009, 08:21 PM
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HoustonPerson and ImTheOne,
Thanks for your responses.... It only locked up this one time, so I don't plan and doing anything unless a true problem persists. I think this was a one time hick'up, possibly due to trying to do too many things (recording and playing and schedule a show) all at one time.

Regards
MK
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post #13885 of 29330 Old 02-25-2009, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FPEMiller View Post

HoustonPerson and ImTheOne,
Thanks for your responses.... It only locked up this one time, so I don't plan and doing anything unless a true problem persists. I think this was a one time hick'up, possibly due to trying to do too many things (recording and playing and schedule a show) all at one time.

Regards
MK

Once your recorder gets into this state it will continue to happen whenever you are trying to record one show while watching another. If you plan on doing this you should take corrective action to prevent further lockups. I've had this occur a couple of times on my recorders. A simple few actions corrects the problem and it only takes a couple of minutes to do. Hope this helps.
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post #13886 of 29330 Old 02-25-2009, 11:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reldnips View Post

ImTheOne, I know this may not calm your fears entirely but..
As previously posted my two 500's, OTA only were using 0-11 and 0-2 as hosts.
Both crapped out at the same time leaving me with days 7 and 8 empty.
I did the G*test on both and left them on CBS 2-1 over night.
Both got all data back and both clocks were fine. Hosts showed nothing and time set showed fffffffd and failing clock station showed fffffffd. I left them on another night and lost 2 or 3 listings on day 8, clocks still fine. Left them on a third night but one was set to 5-1, (Duh) that machine lost days 7 and 8 of listings but the other was fine, clocks still OK. Last night I made sure both were on 2-1. All listings are back and clocks are fine. Still show no host for either and both show fffffffd for both set and failing clock stations. Not sure this helps but anytime I've lost the clock, VBI from 2-1 always got it back in seconds. To me this means it will get listings and clock data from digital CBS.


Reldnips,

I did the same thing that you did, but with different results. Unfortunately, I turned my recorder on before the clock reset to the correct time and wound up with the clock off by 6-7 hours. I tuned to the local CBS digital station and left the recorder on overnight. The clock never reset to the correct time and no downloads took place despite several download cycles passing. Turning off the recorder the following afternoon allowed the clock to reset within a few minutes (probably from an analog source since these recorders seem to prefer analog signals and I did not have a valid host or clock channel at the time). After the clock was set to the proper time, I turned the recorder back on (still on CBS digital) and got the software download shortly thereafter.

Based upon what you wrote, you can't be sure that your time is coming from 2-1. The clock channel can be different from the host channel and the VBI channel. Also, you can get clock information despite the clock menu showing fffffffd for either or both clock entries (I think that this is true if you have valid time zone information already stored on your recorder). I have observed this happening after a soft reset and after a TVGOS reset. As long as you have a valid clock you can receive VBI information from a digital host to update your listings even if you don't have a host channel. Also, if you have the software that recognizes digital information installed you can reacquire a digital host channel or a digital clock channel.

Where this gets tricky is in an environment that has no analog broadcasts (read this as after the digital transition is actually complete). In the event that you lose both your host channel and your clock channel (e.g. a factory reset) the default software that is installed cannot understand digital information. If your clock is wrong (or worse yet, you don't have a clock) your recorder won't be able to download the software version it needs to understand the information on the digital channels. The recorder is now in a state where it needs to download the intermediate version of the software that allows it to understand digital information, but it doesn't have a valid clock to enable it to do so. However, in order to get the clock set it needs to download the software that will enable it to understand the information it gets from the digital channels. While in this state, you will not be able to update your listings by tuning to a digital host and running the G* test because your recorder can no longer understand the data that it will receive from that station. I hope that this helps people understand why I am so concerned about the clock data. Everything else has already been demonstrated to work for a post-transition environment. I think that this is still an issue.

This may also apply to the guys who have cable, but it definitely applies to us OTAers.
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post #13887 of 29330 Old 02-26-2009, 12:02 AM
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...This may also apply to the guys who have cable, but it definitely applies to us OTAers.

In spite of what the M8B says, your concerns about the clock make a lot of sense. I have cable and OTA hooked up, my clock channel is the PBS analog cable station and my host channel is the CBS digital OTA station. Things have been working fine in this situation for several months and my 250 has been through at least one unsolicited reset cycle to original firmware and back with no observed change in clock/host channels. (Since the cable channel is part of limited basic, I have hopes it will stay analog and the clock will remain with it indefinitely )

Jim
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post #13888 of 29330 Old 02-26-2009, 06:02 AM
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Originally Posted by FPEMiller View Post

HoustonPerson and ImTheOne,
Thanks for your responses.... It only locked up this one time, so I don't plan and doing anything unless a true problem persists. I think this was a one time hick'up, possibly due to trying to do too many things (recording and playing and schedule a show) all at one time.

Regards
MK

The memory conflict in my unit was cause by the forced digital download routine, back in mid January, during pre-interim DTV transition phase that missed up TVGOS here. And the lock ups on our unit became frequent with our heavy use. A soft reset would only give a temporary illusion it was fixed then the lock ups would come back with heavy use.

We use our HDD500 in what would be considered a heavy duty basis, lots of recordings, watching's, replays, etc. all at the same time. I really wish it had 4 digital tuners because we would use them at the same time, while watching another.

We are fortunate we have 7 and will soon have 8 HD OTA stations; but we they are all currently at low power (1 or 2 exceptions) and have all sorts of RF conflicts and other issues, that were going to be resolved by Feb 17th. Now that is postponed to June. In Houston we are waiting for 3 more people to get their converter boxes, so that the remaining 1.5 million can get the free DTV as promised. But since three lobbyist now fully control OTA at the FCC, we may never have full power full region OTA again?

In a so called pure digital environment, we just hope these boxes work. I have no idea if there needs to be a firmware upgrade via USB or not, or sent back to Sony, or? Only time will tell.

As ImTheOne indicated these units have to have a clock. So with a full factory reset in a pure digital world, if it can't get a clock, it don't work - unless there is some real fix from somewhere?
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post #13889 of 29330 Old 02-26-2009, 07:30 AM
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- I'm OTA only in Ft. Myers FLA area. DHGHDD250 model.
Software(firmware?) = 1.2.05. TVGOS software = 08.01.42/08.06.44.
Until now the Sony was the most stable and reliable of all my DVRs!
On 2/17 LOST listings (all now = NO LISTINGS). Clock still OK and channel list OK.
My local CBS analog host ceased transmissions on 2/17. I had thought that the transition for the Sony would not require me to take any action!!??
On the other hand my LG3410A is the one I've been trying to get back on TVGOS. I'm chasing my tail on that one!
Anyhow I need some direction as to how to get my Sony to receive digital TVGOS. I (THINK?) know it is being transmitted because I have a DTVPal DVR that is receiving TVGOS listings. And yes, it has its own problems!

If I need a software upgrade how do I get it and install it?
Any other necessary user actions to get the Sony into the digital TVGOS world?
I really appreciate any help and will supply more info if needed?
Thanks, Fred
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post #13890 of 29330 Old 02-26-2009, 07:34 AM
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There are separate inputs on the back of the DVR for cable and OTA. You can have both simultaneously, one line from your cable source and a separate line form your OTA antenna.

Thanks. And from I what I read here, I will need a certain software version to achieve the digital signal, correct? Which version is that, please and if I don't have it, how do I get it? Oh, an btw, local CBS affiliate finally responded with: "We have temporarily disabled this service due to problems with the equipment that inserts the data into our signal. As for information on how to receive this you will still need to contact TV guide. We don't have any information on their service or how to acquire it. If they refer you back to me please get the name and number of who you called and I will forward this to my contact."

Still no response from Brighthouse.
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