New Sony HDV Camcorder HDR-HC1 Info - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 583 Old 05-16-2005, 09:59 PM - Thread Starter
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http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...Camcorder-.htm
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post #2 of 583 Old 05-17-2005, 01:21 AM
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1 chip CMOS just to get beautiful HD video?!?! Sorry, the price is great, but not enough for me to part with my VX2000 3CCD even if it is just SD. The HDR-FX1 is still the only good consumer HDV camcorder out there, but it's $3,699.99. It's the only camcorder that shows what HD is what its really all about, not the HC1.
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post #3 of 583 Old 05-17-2005, 06:11 AM
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odd how you criticize the quality of a camcorder you've never seen the output from.

CMOS works just fin in high end Canon cameras - why would you think there'd be any problem with it in Sony camcorders?

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post #4 of 583 Old 05-17-2005, 07:37 AM
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This could really be ground-breaking for the HDV format! It's a beautiful looking cam and I can't wait to see its picture. I've got a VX2000 as well as the FX1 and would be delighted to see it blow away my VX2000. My 2 concerns with this cam are the single chip and the 4:3 aspect ratio of the chip itself.

But I've learned to never doubt Sony....we'll see.
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post #5 of 583 Old 05-17-2005, 08:15 AM
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I don't understand why someone hasn't put a hard drive into one of these things yet... I don't really like the Sony memory sticks. They are good for camera's, but not camcorders. Depending on the format that it is writing out, and the bit rate, an expensive 2GB DUO Memory stick, just won't get the job done. Imagine a iPod size 60GB HD in that camera... that would make it alot more attractive to me.
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post #6 of 583 Old 05-17-2005, 08:15 AM
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Looks like a winner to me. No 24p will limit the market, but for shooting family video, it should do fine. And Ken, the 4x3 aspect is a concern but it will capture 1920x1080. I've been holding off, but this may be the one to jump into HD.

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post #7 of 583 Old 05-17-2005, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by craineum
Imagine a iPod size 60GB HD in that camera... that would make it alot more attractive to me.
I think you'd be surprised at how little HD you'd be able to shoot with even a 60 gig drive. Tape still provides far far more storage and is easily replaceable. You wouldn't want to go on a vacation with an HDV cam and only a 60 gig drive.

Steve, I agree. This cam may be the most exciting cam that Sony's come up with in a long long time. I love my FX1, but man, something of the size of this new cam in HDV... If it's 75% of the picture of the FX1 (that may be a stretch), it will be a winner.
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post #8 of 583 Old 05-17-2005, 10:19 AM - Thread Starter
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The 4x3 aspect concerns me as well but the shooting is done in 16x9 native, just using a smaller part of the chip. But it should be fine.
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post #9 of 583 Old 05-17-2005, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Ross
I think you'd be surprised at how litte HD you'd be able to shoot with even a 60 gig drive. Tape still provided far far more storage and is easily replaceable. You wouldn't want to go on a vacation with an HDV cam and only a 60 gig drive.
True... but it again depends on the codec... H.264 you should be able to fit alot more, plus I always bring my Mac on vacations :)

Anyways... this maybe the camera for me... I have been waiting for a nice small form factor HD camcorder.
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post #10 of 583 Old 05-17-2005, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Alan Dail
odd how you criticize the quality of a camcorder you've never seen the output from.

CMOS works just fin in high end Canon cameras - why would you think there'd be any problem with it in Sony camcorders?
I based my comparison on another 1 chip HDV camcorder, JVC's GR-HD1, which does use the more superior CCD, although only one. I was not blown away by that cam's quality when I saw the HD1 footage intermixed with 3CCD DVCPRO HD footage on the early American Idol tryout shows. I know Sony has done a good job of making CMOS look as good as CDD, like their standard definition three CMOS chip HD-PC1000, but CCDs will still excel. I have yet to see a professional/industrial video camera use CMOS.

Still photography can get a way with single chip, CCDs or CMOSs; but video works differently, where I can see that 3CCD really excels at. I've seen single chip camcorders create good quality video, but 3CCDs will always look better. So if you like to try the HC1 for yourself, go ahead, but by all means, don't expect American Idol or Leno quality recordings. The HC1, in my opinion, would be better used as a companion to the FX1, or as a secondary HDV VCR to the FX1.
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post #11 of 583 Old 05-17-2005, 10:54 AM
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Tony, let's see how Sony does with this. I'm open-minded and anxious to see how it compares. They've used these CMOS arrays in a 3 chip DVD cam that's gotten very good reviews. I can also recall the Sony VX700, which was a single chip version of the VX1000. That unit, IMO, is still the best single chip cam I've ever seen.

So I wouldn't dismiss quality out of hand, but I'll agree it can't be as good as the FX1. I'd be very happy if it were 75% of the FX1's PQ. That would be a real achievement.
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post #12 of 583 Old 05-17-2005, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Ross
I think you'd be surprised at how little HD you'd be able to shoot with even a 60 gig drive. Tape still provides far far more storage and is easily replaceable. You wouldn't want to go on a vacation with an HDV cam and only a 60 gig drive.
If I recall right a mini-DV tape only holds 10 GB of data. ;)

I may upgrade my JVC HD1 to their new 3 CCD camera also coming into the market in July. It was a hit at NAB. But I would also like to have a small HD camera too. A pocket size would be great but image stability is an even bigger problem at HD resolution.
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post #13 of 583 Old 05-17-2005, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
I think you'd be surprised at how little HD you'd be able to shoot with even a 60 gig drive. Tape still provides far far more storage and is easily replaceable. You wouldn't want to go on a vacation with an HDV cam and only a 60 gig drive.
Hell let us not guess we can do the math right now.

HDV can be run at multiple bitrates but 25mbps is the max and that matches DV.

Thus @ 25mpbs

25mbps * 60 seconds= 1500Mb per minute
1500 * 60 = 90,000Mb per hour

/8 to get Megabytes per hour

= 11,250 MB per hour
60,000MB(60GB) /11250= 5.33 total hrs of recording give or take. hard drives are the future indeed.

Quote:
True... but it again depends on the codec... H.264 you should be able to fit alot more, plus I always bring my Mac on vacations
Quite honestly we're not supposed to be editing MPEG2 it's a delivery codec that compresses across frames. But crafty engineers have beat that challenge. I'm wondering if AVC will have the same potential...although I couldn't see AVC as an editable format for at least 5 years while computer hardware speeds up a bit.

Quote:
I was not blown away by that cam's quality when I saw the HD1 footage intermixed with 3CCD DVCPRO HD footage on the early American Idol tryout shows
Your eyes do not deceive you. DVCPRO HD is 50-100Mbps so it has a LOT less compression. HDV is a nice compromise but and editing codec should infact look superior to a delivery codec albeit at higher rates of course.

Oops Brian I see you already addressed the Tape vs hd size debate. I think that tape is going bye bye wherever you look. In a few more years youll have iPod size drives which are 1.8" at 120GB or more. It eventually becomes a no brainer that we need to move away from linear tape and to random access hard drives.

This sony should fuel the consumption of HD content I like that
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post #14 of 583 Old 05-17-2005, 06:33 PM
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Yes but Panasonic coming with HD 720P flash memory system - the future is tapeless ...

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...o-04_18_04.htm

 


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post #15 of 583 Old 05-17-2005, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
60,000MB(60GB) /11250= 5.33 total hrs of recording give or take. hard drives are the future indeed.

But I can't see at current storage capacities contemplated for small consumer cams, a consumer replacing and storing on the shelf his now filled HD. It's not going to happen when he can pop in another $8 tape. The future yes, but not for the next couple of years or so. Nor do I see the average Joe dumping the contents of his cam HD on to his desktop computer and then erasing the contents of the cam's HD and starting over.
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post #16 of 583 Old 05-17-2005, 07:00 PM
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well, that is exactly what the average consumer does with their digital camera. The difference here is the computer HD would fill up quickly, so it needs to then be burned to DVD and real support for HD content on DVDs is still a little ways off (even though Apple supports it for playback on a computer already)

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post #17 of 583 Old 05-17-2005, 08:29 PM
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Alan that's exactly what I thought before reading your post. Digicams will lead the way. We'll store our video on the internal drive and then we'll ingest to our desktop/laptop editing system and then backup our clips to Blu-Ray or whatever. The Pros will likely have removable "backs" or cartridges that can be directly edited on for speed. Soon the last bastion of tape will but Ultrium 3 400/800GB backup tapes for corp enterprise.

I like P2 but it's going to have to get a whole lot cheaper before it can compete with hard drives. I look for cameras to start blending with computers. RAID levels on the hard drives and direct connection to computers where the camera will look like just another hard drive are coming IMO.
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post #18 of 583 Old 05-17-2005, 08:41 PM
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I saw the articles announcing this new Sony camcorder last night, and I must say that I'm certainly looking forward to when I'll be in a position to buy it.

All the complaints seem pretty minor to me. Yeah, it has a 4:3 chip, but that chip is high enough in resolution to support full HD resolution -- it's effectively 1080 x 1920 for video and 1440 x 1920 for stills. As a single chip camera, I'm sure that the performance won't match up with that of the 3-chip FX1, but then it is also close to half the price of the FX1. Making some sort of prime/performance tradeoff is reasonable. And there is some performance lost -- preliminary literature suggests that the low-light performance of the HC1 will not be as good as the FX1 (Sony specs minimum lighting at 7 lux for the HC1, 3 lux for the FX1).

What this camcorder does offer is HD recording in a price and form factor that is appealing for the high end consumer (not prosumer) market. If it the automatic functions work well and it is easy to use, then Sony has hit a major home run with this camera.
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post #19 of 583 Old 05-18-2005, 04:48 AM
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Look for the actual resolution of the new Sony cam to be lower than 1440X1080. The FX1 has actually been measured at something like 1440X1080, so don't look to get anything near 1920X1080 with the little guy. With in-camera filtering, many professional HD Cams don't do 1920 horizontal resolution.

The bottom line is that the pictue on the FX1 can be spectacular and I'm sure the new little Sony HDV cam will blow away anything mini-DV in terms of picture sharpness and detail.
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post #20 of 583 Old 05-18-2005, 09:26 AM
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Very excited about this upcoming HDV camcorder at a great price & form factor with manual controls & should be available in 1.5 months. Can't wait !

List price $1700 (cheaper than the HC1000)
Global release date : July, 7
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post #21 of 583 Old 05-18-2005, 08:43 PM
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Where did you see the $1700 price tag? Reports I've seen just say "around $2000" -- if its actually several hundred below, that is great news!
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post #22 of 583 Old 05-18-2005, 09:37 PM
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was it here?
http://www.macworld.com/news/2005/05...nyhd/index.php

I wonder if it will still not record to jvc dvhs?

Where is JVC's Consumer UNDER $2K that will record to jvc's dvhs?
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post #23 of 583 Old 05-18-2005, 11:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Thomas Desmond
Where did you see the $1700 price tag? Reports I've seen just say "around $2000" -- if its actually several hundred below, that is great news!
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...pcworld/120862

The HDR-HC1 will be launched in Japan on July 7 and in North America, Europe, and Asia at about the same time. It will cost about $1685 in Japan. It will cost about the same price overseas.
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post #24 of 583 Old 05-19-2005, 07:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by drpepper
was it here?
http://www.macworld.com/news/2005/05...nyhd/index.php

I wonder if it will still not record to jvc dvhs?

Probably not since the problem appears to be the different data rates of the 2 formats. I got a picture on my JVC when recording from the FX1, but it was periodically ridden with macroblocking on playback.

You CAN use the JVC to pass through the firewire signal which actually improves the FX1's picture if your JVC is connected via DVI or HDMI.
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post #25 of 583 Old 05-19-2005, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by sdeb_net
The HDR-HC1 will be launched in Japan on July 7 and in North America, Europe, and Asia at about the same time. It will cost about $1685 in Japan. It will cost about the same price overseas.
Thanks! That is encouraging. This camera seems like a really good deal at that price.
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post #26 of 583 Old 05-20-2005, 09:26 PM
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I know I was harsh in the earlier comments about the HC1 on its use of a single chip sensor, being the CMOS. I was at Fry's earlier today and looked at Sony's only other CMOS camcorder, the DCR-PC1000, which is a standard definition three chip CMOS camcorder. I compared it's image with a similarly priced 3CCD SD camcorder, and I'm amazed at how good the 3CMOS camcorder looked. The one artifact that CMOS eliminated that always plagued CCDs is the vertical streaking when pointing the camera at a bright spot of light. This made me wonder why Sony couldn't implement 3CMOS in the HC1 instead of a color degrading single CMOS chip design. I'll be holding out hopes for a 3CMOS version of the HC1, as the FX1, as good as it is, is still out of my price range. I've just gotten used to 3CCD SD and can't stand going back to single chip sensors, even for higher resolution.
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post #27 of 583 Old 05-21-2005, 07:05 AM
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Tony, that's why I mentioned about the good reviews the Sony 3 CMOS cam had gotten. They've come a long way with CMOS imagers.
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and that's why I mentioned the high end cannon digital cameras that are cmos based. Just because there have seen poor products that are cmos based doesn't mean they couldn't figure out a way to improve the technology. If the sony camera looks even close to as good as my digital rebel, I'll be thrilled. I suspect I can buy the new HD camcorder and use the money I save vs. the FX1 to buy a PowerMac with a Blu-Ray DVD burner later this year and be able to edit and archive the video I shoot in HD instead of SD.

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post #29 of 583 Old 05-21-2005, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by TonyW79SFV
This made me wonder why Sony couldn't implement 3CMOS in the HC1 instead of a color degrading single CMOS chip design. I'll be holding out hopes for a 3CMOS version of the HC1, as the FX1, as good as it is, is still out of my price range. I've just gotten used to 3CCD SD and can't stand going back to single chip sensors, even for higher resolution.
I think that the answer to that question is really pretty easy: price. The HC1 will be roughly half the price of the FX1, and for that price differential, we should reasonably expect *some* performance compromises. The bottom line is that the HC1 is simply not targeted at the user who needs the extra performance offered by a 3 sensor design. Think of it as a high-end hobbyist camcorder instead of a low-end professional product, and you'll hit the niche Sony is aiming for. In fact, I am sure that Sony would prefer that potential FX1 buyers not see the HC1 as a potential substitute, since that would just lower Sony's margins.

I expect this camera to be a very good performer for what it is, and suspect that it is one that I'd be very happy owning and using on that basis. But I wouldn't expect it to be the equal of the FX1 in all respects...

As an aside, one feature that I would personally love to see is HD analog component inputs. Since this camcorder contains the circuitry to perform MPEG2 compression of 1080i HD video, this capability is certainly theoretically possible. Unfortunately, I think we all know the business and political climate makes such a feature extremely unlikely.
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post #30 of 583 Old 05-21-2005, 02:01 PM
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If Sony can sell the DCR-PC1000 while selling the DCR-VX2100; I'm sure the same can be done with a 3CMOS and the HDR-FX1. Although it may be to early for Sony to do so right now.

I take a group tour with a bunch of families every two years, last one was in July 2004, and I used my VX2000 for it. People loved the color reproduction of the DVDs I made for them. I'm hoping to try to make an HD recording in July 2006, but with most of my friends still not having HD displays or playback devices, I want to make sure the downconversion still looks as good as the VX2000 I have. Even in 2004, I was torn between buying JVC's GR-HD1 and a used DCR-VX2000. I took the VX2000 instead. If nothing else comes on the horizon, I may think about doing dual shots with a single chip HD camcorder (HC1) and 3CCD SD (VX2000) camcorder. Just so I have a high quality SD recording with an HD version that can be used in future copies to friends.

Thomas Desmond, as for component 1080i inputs, yes, the HC1 and FX1 can take an uncompressed HD singal and output MPEG-2 1080i, but you forgot the added cost of a 1080i analog to digital converter, which would probably add a grand. Also, as you may already know, the MPAA would've hated having 1080i inputs; and that option, if it were available, would be a moot point as future HD devices may not have HD outputs via analog component video.
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