DVD Forum / NO Full Bandwidth HD over Component Analog Video - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 233 Old 07-21-2005, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy
depends on what country thier in..... *crosses Fingers* what really pisses me off is that most tvs only have 1 HDMI input ......
Most of us have been around the block with high end switchs that work, I wonder why you find issue with getting a after market switch of some sort?

You have more than two HDMI (WITH HDCP) devices (or will it seems)? :rolleyes:

It is "WOW" TV!
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post #92 of 233 Old 07-22-2005, 12:35 AM
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Most people don't care if its HD or not if they can save $2. They'll just ignore the HD-DVD business and get it the old fashion way, off of standard DVD. So will the pirates.

This is a just a control game to get royalties.

Ken Elliott
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post #93 of 233 Old 07-31-2005, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paintit77
IMO Best Buy and CC will tell people that Component will work with the new DVD players to there TVs and people will buy the new HD-DVD player, hook it up over component and think its HD. I mean they tell people all the time that the only way they can recieve HD is over HDMI and DVI. They love selling those $150.00 Monster HDMI cables and when needed the DVI converter for $50.00. Those cables give them a 100% Margin. It costs them $50.00 Bucks for the cable and they sell them for $149.00 plus tax.<i> I was in line at the customer service desk at my local BB two months ago. Behind me was a lady returning one of those $149.00 HDMI cables. She said it wouldn't work with he cable box. I asked her who the supplier was and she said Comcast. I said Comcast doesn't even turn on the DVI on the boxes. They only send a signal through component. </i>She said the BB sales person told her that Comcast only uses an HDMI cable. I said, he was on crack and she laughed.
--------------------------------
Perhaps already mentioned in the thread, but in fact the Motorola boxes do
support DVI to HDMI. For over a year now, and the picture is quite nice.

They don't require it though, so you can still watch HD over
YPbPr.
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post #94 of 233 Old 08-02-2005, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dacoop1
The new HD players will have component outs, but just won't pass HD resolutions through them. Do you really think that a sales guy on the floor of BestBuy is going to either accurately know this, accurately tell a potential customer about this, and be capable of accurately describing why this is? I envision a slew of people buying these new players not even realizing that they aren't getting full resolution. Do you think that the salespeople at BestBuy are telling people buying TVs now without a digital tuner are jumping at the chance to tell them that they won't be able to get OTA in a few years? Not unless they can upsell them to a more expensive TV. I think that the BestBuys are gonna love this, it'll give them another method of pushing the more expensive newer HDTVs.


Thats why they have a thing called "RETURNS" After the first wave of customers all returning the samething, they'll tell there salesmen to tell them it will downconvert to 480P using component...

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post #95 of 233 Old 08-02-2005, 12:04 PM
 
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Thats why they have a thing called "RETURNS" After the first wave of customers all returning the samething, they'll tell there salesmen to tell them it will downconvert to 480P using component...
Hopefully, they'll have bought a few dozen HD-DVDs which they'll want to return as well? :)
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post #96 of 233 Old 08-02-2005, 03:14 PM
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Like many of you, I have more than one display that I could watch HD DVD on. But of the three, only one has DVI inputs, and it's a DLP front projector. I have another DLP projector that will only do component, and a TV (Toshiba 65H81) that will only do component. By no means are they obsolete. The TV was purchased in 2001, and it still has a great picture. I'm in no hurry to replace (especially since I spent $3,500 on it).

If there were one format with full bandwidth component outs, I would have probably ended up buying 3 HD DVD players. As it is, I won't even buy one.

I've purchased over 800 DVDs, and 5 or 6 players over the years. I would probably have purchased a helluva lot of HD DVDs too if the studios weren't discouraging me from doing so.

No component = no purchase.
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post #97 of 233 Old 08-02-2005, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisDuncan
No component = no purchase.
There you go, that is the correct decision if you feel strongly about the issue.

Chris
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post #98 of 233 Old 08-02-2005, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Gerhard
There you go, that is the correct decision if you feel strongly about the issue.

Chris
That is the correct solution for a lot of us, and your right, could it be we agree on an issue? :)

It is "WOW" TV!
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post #99 of 233 Old 08-02-2005, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paintit77
I totally agree! If nothing else their should be adds run on TV, Newspapers and Magazines telling potential victims of this crime that they are getting screwed. I have personally seen first had the kind of sinister tactics BB and CC use to sell people stuff they don't even need. My favorite was from BB. They told this women that they only way her TV can recieve HD is from a DVI or HDMI cable. She used Comcast which doesn't even send a signal out of their DVI outputs on their set top boxes. Its just Bull ****. They are going to tell everyone that comes in their stores that HD-DVD will output HD over component. Lie, Lie, Lie.
I am going to send them an E-mail right now that I will be watching them.

I have a 6412 from Comcast, and the DVI output works for HD for me, to a DVI input on my Sony HS510. It looks far better than component out HD from my 6412, and I use the two component inputs on my TV for my D-VHS and my non-uprezzing normal DVD. Don't get me wrong, BB & CC salespeople suck eggs, obviously component out does HD on some set boxes so telling anyone they can only use HDMI or DVI for HD is a lie, and I assume in many areas DVI doesn't work for Comcast. But you don't have a monopoly on the truth either with your blanket statement that Comcast doesn't even send a signal out of their DVI outputs on their STBs.

Caveat emptor, people. Those of us on a forum like this know the necessity of learning at least a little bit about how things work and what we want before purchasing. Salespeople of all types for years have exaggerated the claims of their products, and the trend will continue. None of us should ever have to be in a position where our decision to make a purchase is contingent on information provided by one salesperson.

Comcast (Berkeley, CA)
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post #100 of 233 Old 08-02-2005, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey p
That is the correct solution for a lot of us, and your right, could it be we agree on an issue? :)
Well Mikey, I have been suggesting that all along and I have read you state you won't buy, so yes we are in absolute agreement on that single point. I still believe the issue is insignificant to the success or failure of the formats and most that feel strongly now will change their minds if the products succeed and offer exceptional quality and value. Me, I will still be stuck with my enormous investment in D-VHS, DVD and W-VHS and my HDCP compliant displays won't be relevant.

Chris
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post #101 of 233 Old 08-02-2005, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris Gerhard
Well Mikey,..... Me, I will still be stuck with my enormous investment in D-VHS, DVD and W-VHS and my HDCP compliant displays won't be relevant.

Chris
WHY, you still can enjoy all that plus what ever your NEW display will allow, what is WRONG with you? I plan on continued enjoyment of the investment (in D-VHS)!

However YMMV, and your home state is a big clue to me as I use to live up there, so please don't bother to "show me". :D

It is "WOW" TV!
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post #102 of 233 Old 08-02-2005, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey p
WHY, you still can enjoy all that plus what ever your NEW display will allow, what is WRONG with you? I plan on continued enjoyment of the investment (in D-VHS)!
No more money and no more space for this habit. I waited on the sidelines for years in the HDTV game and bought my first HDTV March 2004 and first projector last November. I will watch from the sidelines when this game finally starts. One of the formats is going to be a success is my guess.

I see no significant improvement using DVI compared to component on my displays so I certainly understand why people would like to add another HD format to be used with analog connections.

Chris
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post #103 of 233 Old 08-02-2005, 08:39 PM
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If you are worried about compatibility, do what I do, upgrade every two years or so with your HT hardware and you will be o.k. No one is stopping you from selling your existing display. I usuall recover anywhere fron 50-130% of what I paid. Yeah that is right, sometimes I make a profit and step up in performance.

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post #104 of 233 Old 08-03-2005, 12:22 AM
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Obviously you're talking about selling your TV or projector in this case. In my case, I think I passed the window of opportunity for selling my TV for a decent price. I paid $3,500 for my 65" TV in 2001. That same TV (which now has digital inputs) can now be had brand new for under $2,000. I'd rather refrain from buying into a format I don't agree with than sell my perfectly fine TV for a fraction of what I paid new, especially when the picture has barely degraded from when it was new.

The same with my 2-year-old DLP projector that lacks DVI. It now goes for half price brand new compared to what I paid.

Rather than find a way to conform, in this case I'll stand my ground and not buy their product.
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post #105 of 233 Old 08-03-2005, 02:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisDuncan
Rather than find a way to conform, in this case I'll stand my ground and not buy their product.
Again, for you, that is fine. For others with a not so hardline stance, purchase whatever format, quit purchasing DVDs and use the new product over component at 480p. Either format should be a big improvement over DVD used in that manner. When the display needs to be replaced, get a display that will allow HDTV resolution. Despite the continual complaints, the facts are simple. This issue has been decided. Release players with only unrestricted analog output and you won't see many titles. Give the studios the ability to use copy protection and we should see a great selection. You can argue and boldly state they are wrong, it just doesn't matter. I don't invest my money in $100,000,000 films and won't begin to attempt to tell companies that do how to best recover their investment and earn a profit.

Some people are going to pout and sit in the corner and that is their right. My bet is the number that does will be small. The products will succeed or fail, I don't know, but it won't be because of this. It will be because the products either deliver usefulness, value and quality or they don't.

Chris
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post #106 of 233 Old 08-03-2005, 04:17 AM
 
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No component = no purchase.
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That is the correct solution for a lot of us, and your right, could it be we agree on an issue?
That is no solution at all..... that's surrender, IMO.
And your lack of purchase will do nothing to the market or the studios at all, since the Studios have already written you off when they made their decision.
In this situation, we really have no decision to make as the Studios have made them all for us already.... just like they will be doing in our homes well into the future.
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It will be because the products either deliver usefulness, value and quality or they don't.
Sounds like D Theater to me. ;) Seriously though, I guess we'll see if the improvement folks can see in the stores with HDCP-DVD will be good enough to get them to spend $4K to get it in their homes?
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post #107 of 233 Old 08-03-2005, 05:14 AM
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I'm sure the pirate community is going to love this... They stand to make some serious cash when there is an easy economical way to record analog HDTV.

They may be screwing me out of my analog projector - forcing me to purchase newer - lower picture quality displays but at least they are also screwing themselves...

Exactly how hard do they think it will be to buy a "compliant" TV and then hack it to get to the analog signals? Do they know how CRT based TV's work or are they just going add every CRT based display to the 'pirate' list and screw all those people also?

All getting rid of analog outputs does is screw the honest consumer and make the pirates rich. Great idea!
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post #108 of 233 Old 08-03-2005, 05:27 AM
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I see one more possible 'winner' in this game. The CATV companies. Bear with me for a second but the STBs they use are 'secure' devices, even the DVRs. They are exempt from the 'no component' rule and in fact present beautiful HD Hollywood material now from the likes of HBO etc.

What I see as a possible alturnate delivery to HD-DVD and BR is the advance of HD video on demand in combination with the cable co DVR boxes. Hollywood has been approacing the point that VOD or Pay per view are released simultanous with the DVD release. If this happens and most new titles are included, many folks may forgo the HD-DVD/BR purchase if it requires replacing an expensive HDTV while the cable company version does not. For most consumers we are talking about delivery of rental movies, not collection building.

Depends on a lot of things but an interesting possible outcome don't you think?
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post #109 of 233 Old 08-03-2005, 05:39 AM
 
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Exactly how hard do they think it will be to buy a "compliant" TV and then hack it to get to the analog signals? Do they know how CRT based TV's work or are they just going add every CRT based display to the 'pirate' list and screw all those people also? All getting rid of analog outputs does is screw the honest consumer and make the pirates rich. Great idea!
I'd bet that in a year or so you'll be able to buy a broken HDCP-HDTV for a few hundred bucks.... The only folks impacted by this no-analog connection crap is the honest consumer... and that is exactly according to Hollywood's business plan.

Once they can totally control our home access to entertainment, they will quickly move to a totally Pay-For-Each-Use system. If that is all we have for new media releases, then our only home entertainment choice will be to watch it and pay, and pay, and pay again.......or not.

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Depends on a lot of things but an interesting possible outcome don't you think?
I am already doing this with my cablecard Sony HDD500. Native HD movies recorded and played back via my component connections to my CRT based HDTV looks wonderful and superior to that same movie on DVD. However... by the time folks get used to doing this, the studios will download some more CP which will downrez our component outputs and require HDCP ones for HD viewing. Count on it.
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post #110 of 233 Old 08-03-2005, 09:40 AM
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Despite the continual complaints, the facts are simple. This issue has been decided. Release players with only unrestricted analog output and you won't see many titles. Give the studios the ability to use copy protection and we should see a great selection. You can argue and boldly state they are wrong, it just doesn't matter. I don't invest my money in $100,000,000 films and won't begin to attempt to tell companies that do how to best recover their investment and earn a profit.
I think you're missing the big picture. In order for there to be a great selection of HD DVDs, they need to sell a lot of players, and they're already limiting their chances of success by confusing the public with 2 formats right from the start. In addition, I don't think alienating the millions of consumers with component-only HDTVs is very conducive to the format having a "great selection" of titles available. Bottom line is, the format has to be at least somewhat succesful for many titles to become available.


I don't invest in films either, but I'm one of the many potential consumers of their product. I don't think just going along with things is the right decision, whether you feel like your actions have any impact or not on the studios' thinking. Really, I'd be happy for them to return a profit, and just because I don't invest big money in films, doesn't mean that I (and you and all of us) don't have some common sense on this issue. Standard def. DVD has been wildly succesful, but paranoia on the studios part is going to prevent the same from happening with HD DVD.
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post #111 of 233 Old 08-03-2005, 10:01 AM
 
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This issue has been decided. Release players with only unrestricted analog output and you won't see many titles.
Hmmm, yet VOD and HDTV via analog is just fine... I wonder why? Could it have something to do with the courts rejection of the Broadcast Flag for that media??? ;)

Err... limiting HD(CP)-DVD to a digital only, HDCP, phone home CP, AACS, route is only the beginning for us. Hollywood won't be happy until they move to a total Pay-For-Each-Use entertainment system.

Removing totally the "analog hole" is a required first step in this business plan.
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post #112 of 233 Old 08-03-2005, 10:11 AM
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If it is complicated the general public will not support it. Eg SACD, DVD audio.
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post #113 of 233 Old 08-03-2005, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by merc
I am already doing this with my cablecard Sony HDD500. Native HD movies recorded and played back via my component connections to my CRT based HDTV looks wonderful and superior to that same movie on DVD. However... by the time folks get used to doing this, the studios will download some more CP which will downrez our component outputs and require HDCP ones for HD viewing. Count on it.
Actually, there's already something in place that does allow them to do that. It's called the Constrained Image Trigger and it's part of D.Fast licensing (aka Cablecard certification). It allows your cable company to send as part of the CCI bits a flag to tell the Sony box to downrez the analog component outs to 960x540 from the original resolution. It's not Sony's fault, it's required by the Cable consortium with their "robustness" rules.
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post #114 of 233 Old 08-03-2005, 10:37 AM
 
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Thanks Turtle... I think? ;)

It just gets worse and "worser" for us AV enthusiasts...

As time goes by... Hollywood requires us to move closer and closer to the mindset of the pirates, and by doing so, perpetuates the their belief that we've always belonged there.... :(

Me thinks that if they keep pushing us to the dark side... they will eventually rue that day when we've had too much of their BS. :D
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post #115 of 233 Old 08-03-2005, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Gerhard
This issue has been decided. Release players with only unrestricted analog output and you won't see many titles. Give the studios the ability to use copy protection and we should see a great selection. You can argue and boldly state they are wrong, it just doesn't matter.
Um, no, the issue has not been decided. Hollywood may think otherwise, but the issue won't be decided until these products are in the marketplace and are either selling or sitting on the shelf.
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post #116 of 233 Old 08-04-2005, 03:50 AM
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I hve not tried the HD on demand from TWC yet. I may do that and see how good the PQ is. I can bet that my DVR will not record it but I may be able to see if the SD outputs are active though.
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post #117 of 233 Old 08-04-2005, 05:02 AM
 
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I hve not tried the HD on demand from TWC yet. I may do that and see how good the PQ is.
telemike,

If you already have an HD STB or HD-DVR from TWC, why not just tune into some free HD on their system. As long as it is native and not upconverted HDTV, it will look pretty much the same.

I watch and record HD on a daily basis off of my cablecard Sony HD500. The kids watched "First Kid" in HD on HBO yesterday. :)
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post #118 of 233 Old 08-04-2005, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Gerhard
The products will succeed or fail, I don't know, but it won't be because of this. It will be because the products either deliver usefulness, value and quality or they don't.

Chris
I think this is the issue exactly. Since 2/3 of the HDTVs do not have HDCP, Hi Def DVDs are not useful for them.

Rick R
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post #119 of 233 Old 08-04-2005, 09:49 AM
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I don't want HDCP from all the handshaking problems I see here
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post #120 of 233 Old 08-04-2005, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick_R
Since 2/3 of the HDTVs do not have HDCP...
Nope. Not to put too fine a point on it, but according to CEA projections, more HDCP-capable (EIA/CEA-861 compliant) displays will be sold in the next 6 months alone than there are non-HDCP-capable HDTVs in use. Yes, there is a sizable "legacy" HDTV population that likely won't fully benefit from the next gen formats, but it's not nearly as large in relative terms as everyone thinks.

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