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post #181 of 233 Old 08-11-2005, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by amillians
I fail to see how what I'm posting--namely, correction of misinformation coupled with opinion, so noted--constitutes a "meaningless diatribe." Feel free to label it a diatribe, but I wouldn't call it meaningless.
You can, it seems WAIT all you like for your HD-Optical by the time it arrives and the format war is settled I will need a new display(s) anyway and as such it WON'T matter any more.

In the mean time trust me, I'll enjoy what I have. YMMV............ ;)

It is "WOW" TV!
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post #182 of 233 Old 08-11-2005, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by wtr_wkr
No big deal about HD DVD output via HDMI only. You will want another HDTV in 5 yrs when HD DVD becomes available (at a reasonable price and with some content.)
You bet, in the five years HD-Optical may have died, anyway, and I'll also be ready for new displays by then too. :)

I'm waiting for the real bit*hing to start, like what these guys did to JVC over D-VHS or HBO / Starz with OAR if you think this is bad, sit tight and wait for the real fireworks to come. ;)

It is "WOW" TV!
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post #183 of 233 Old 08-11-2005, 05:20 PM
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"sit tight and wait for the real fireworks to come". :D

I apologize for adding the goofy smiley face, but that statement needed it badly! ;)

Misery loves company; they say... there will be a lot of company around here during early release... if there ever is a release. KnowhatImean? :p

The MPAA would be paying big bucks for focus-group data like that which resides within this thread. They are too blinded by greed or fear to see the truth. Consumer outrage and apathy are ignored, even though these two market indicators are large hurdles to be overcome if either format is to succeed.

Principle and "doing the right thing, even if it is not popular or easy", is not the PC way of "some" in today's world. It is rare when people will stand up for what is right and moral; reacting with the passion of one's conviction. There are many AVS'ers that see the erosion (if not outright destruction) of our "fair use" rights, concealed within security systems mandated by Hollywood. I am honored to share this forum with like-minded souls. I understand the industries actions, but that is not tantamount to approval, or acceptance. Those that accept or see these actions as legitimate and unobserving of worry, this is absolutely your right. I have no authority to demand that you cease publication, or change the direction of your beliefs. On the other hand, those that believe like "we" do, have as much of a right to our espoused beliefs as the industry does. If you are in the middle, not knowing what to think about all of this now, read all opinions and facts to help yourself decide what is important to you.

I do not wear an eye-patch, I can assure you. I have +-500 commercial DVD's in my collection, a majority of the available D-Theater offerings, and DVHS HD content (OTA) etc. I am what Hollywood SHOULD perceive as a very good customer. I will NOT buy either of these formats, unless in reality the ability to do "something", does not lead to that "something" actually being enabled. It isn't the price of a new display that will keep me from buying into either format. I am planning on buying a Pio 1080p Plasma next year. It will have TWO HDMI ports on its media box, but they will be lonely little portals into fantasyland if moderation fails to rule the day.

To paraphrase and plagiarize a bit... "And that's all I have to say about that"!

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post #184 of 233 Old 08-11-2005, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Ray Cathode
The MPAA would be paying big bucks for focus-group data like that which resides within this thread. They are too blinded by greed or fear to see the truth. Consumer outrage and apathy are ignored, even though these two market indicators are large hurdles to be overcome if either format is to succeed.
These people are

- not stupid
- keenly aware of exactly what they are doing
- aware how many users would be affected by any decision
- aware of the amount of backlash from disgruntled users
- also home theater enthusiasts, so are also affected by their own decisions

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post #185 of 233 Old 08-11-2005, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjack
These people are

- not stupid
- keenly aware of exactly what they are doing
-
Too true, do you have your data up on MONSTER yet? :)

It is "WOW" TV!
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post #186 of 233 Old 08-11-2005, 08:55 PM
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Originally posted by kjack: These people are

"- not stupid"

Greedy and fearful yes, but I never implied stupid.

"- keenly aware of exactly what they are doing"

Yes they are, and that is the sad truth. Being aware and understanding fully the ramifications of consumer backlash, are two entirely different things. They are indeed blind to the truth, for the truth is something that should not be "written off". "We" are being written off. That's the truth!

"- aware how many users would be affected by any decision"

They are aware of the number for early adopters. The numbers of people that will be affected by their decisions grow far beyond the installed base of today.

Smart people at Coca Cola thought "New Coke" would quadruple sales. 3 months later and "Classic Coke" was reborn. Mistakes often happen in business. I know, as I have 35 years experience in owning several of them. This is a BIG mistake on the part of Hollywood.

It is not the fact that they have to secure their data, which angers most. It is the total disregard with which FOUNDERS of this hobby are being treated, that lies at the crux of this problem . MPAA plants here on this forum gleefully exclaim that "we don't matter". We are expendable. We are worthless, stupid, uneducated, and uninformed. We are none of the above... but we are PI$$ed!


"- aware of the amount of backlash from disgruntled users"

Just re-read my above reply, if needed.

"- also home theater enthusiasts, so are also affected by their own decisions"

Decisions always have consequences... for everyone that makes them. The ONLY decisions that have been poorly thought out in this mess, are the "you early adopters don't mean S*it to us" decisions.

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post #187 of 233 Old 08-11-2005, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjack
These people are

- not stupid
- keenly aware of exactly what they are doing
- aware how many users would be affected by any decision
- aware of the amount of backlash from disgruntled users
- also home theater enthusiasts, so are also affected by their own decisions
They're also not omiscient.

If anyone else here remembers the RCA CED videodisc format, Circuit City's DIVX DVD players, the Digital Compact Cassette, and many other consumer electronics misfires that have occurred over the years, then we understand that HD-DVD and/or Blu Ray with these content restrictions are far from a guaranteed success.
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post #188 of 233 Old 08-12-2005, 03:13 AM
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Add DAT to that defunct format list. Killed by SCMS, taxes on tapes and other paranoid things from RIAA.

SACD and DVD-A...I don't know anyone who plays those.
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post #189 of 233 Old 08-12-2005, 05:08 AM
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I think really they are taking thing to far, there are more sets with component hd then HDMI. I don't care what statistics say. More so people I know have only component on there tvs, and will not be upgrading these tv for the next 5 to 10 years.

The studios are missing out on these people. and the average joe, who wont upgrade theere tv just for a format.

People think dvd is amazing, even if hd offers more resolution most people are just happy with dvd.

even though I want hd on a disc, these formats are just asking to die.
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post #190 of 233 Old 08-12-2005, 05:49 AM
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The studios are not stupid. And they probably had a good idea that they are demanding protections bringing the two new formats close to failure. But we have to remember who is taking the risk here. The risk is more on the CE companies backing the two formats than it is on Hollywood. (Sony is both)

Hollywood can allow either or both format to fail as long as they fail soon before DVD sales really start to slow. They don't care. Later, if the new formats are failing they can allow release on HVD (or any format) with much more consumer friendly terms if they so choose.

The CE companies are now in more of a hurry because of the dated nature of their respective patents and technologies. So they have been forced into some agreements with Hollywood that they probably don't really like. Because of this I don't expect most CE companies or disc manufacturers to really "bet the farm" on either format. I'm betting on a delayed and half-hearted roll-out from all involved.

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post #191 of 233 Old 08-12-2005, 05:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by space2001
People think dvd is amazing, even if hd offers more resolution most people are just happy with dvd.

even though I want hd on a disc, these formats are just asking to die.
I think DVD is a great value. I think DTheater is amazing but everybody in my family is perfectly happy watching DVD and other than acknowledging that HDTV looks better when I have asked them to compare, they don't care whether they watch DVD or HD. I believe a small percentage of people will feel they must have HD discs and one of the two formats should do well as a niche format.

It has been difficult for me to fully understand what all of DRM restrictions will mean. Some posts make it sound like it is going to be horrible, other posts make it seem like it will be invisible to those that don't want to copy discs. Although I have asked questions, I still don't understand. Product introductions aren't likely for several months at best and much is still subject to change so all of this should be clear sometime soon. The worst I have read indicates that criminal hackers are going to introduce viruses that will attack the players or disable the players by sending commands over the internet.

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post #192 of 233 Old 08-12-2005, 06:30 AM
 
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FWIW, I fail to see how you're "being screwed out of" your money. You purchased equipment. You can choose to (or not to) purchase equipment in the future. You can chose to (or not to) purchase either, or both, of the next gen discs in the future. How exactly does this screw you out of your money? Are you saying you feel forced to purchase new equipment? Are you saying your current equipment is somehow rendered useless?
This is just more Hollywood spin.... let's examine the facts, as Alex supposedly does.
- Early adopters enthusiastically buy into this new thing called high definition TV. They spend big bucks in order to do so.
- In most cases, no one specifically says that in 2-4 years, when high definition-DVD is launched, their new HDTV will absolutely-positively support it, however, since their TV displays high definition video, and has at least one high definition connection, there is absolutely no reason why anyone should think otherwise. They also understand that any new high definition format will be compatable, resolution wise, with their new HDTV, and they also know that the analog HD inputs on their HDTV provide the best input, performance-wise, for their HDTV. They realize, that since they just bought an HDTV, there is absolutely no reason (for technological or performance) that all high definition sources should not work with their high definition TV. They trust the industry and Hollywood to not screw them since there is simply no reason to do so. In this case, common sense and knowledge of past technological advances which required hardware upgrades, overcome caveat emptor. IMO.

Unfortunately, we now know that Hollywood and the Industry is not bound by either common sense, morality or even ethical business dealings.


Quote:
Lest you think I'm not impacted by the new formats:
My HDMI-capable displays will not resolve 1080p24, nor will they accept it. By definition, I'm not able to take full advantage of the video feed from either format...in fact, I'm losing 49.4% of the picture data in one case, and 55.5% (over half!) of the picture data in the other case. Whom you you suggest I sue first?
Err, sorry, but last I checked, HDTVs support 720p and 1080i as correct resolutions. Super-HDTVs support 1080p. Apples and Oranges my friend.

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My pre/pro will not accept LPCM via HDMI, nor will it decode any of the new audio formats featured in either format (outside of backwards compatible legacy streams). I can't benefit from *any* of the new audio features on either format, and I just bought this unit. Do you consider me screwed out of my money?
If it didn't support decoding Dolby Digital and it was advertised as doing so, then yes, you'd have been screwed just like us. Our HDTVs were purchased to display high defintion video from high definition sources, and that's all we want it to do. No more, and no less.

Can't you come up with an analogy which fits at least a little better than these? ;)
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post #193 of 233 Old 08-12-2005, 06:41 AM
 
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It has been difficult for me to fully understand what all of DRM restrictions will mean. Some posts make it sound like it is going to be horrible, other posts make it seem like it will be invisible to those that don't want to copy discs.
Hehe... yeah, absolutely INVISIBLE to those of us without the HDCP DRM input crap.

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The worst I have read indicates that criminal hackers are going to introduce viruses that will attack the players or disable the players by sending commands over the internet.
I certainly hope folks don't do this. All it would do is bring the Hackers down to the level of Hollywood and the Industry(AACS). :rolleyes:
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post #194 of 233 Old 08-12-2005, 08:56 AM
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Why should Hackers respect anything? I don't think there is an Oath of Hacking. They will do whatever they can because they can.
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post #195 of 233 Old 08-12-2005, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by merc
Err, sorry, but last I checked, HDTVs support 720p and 1080i as correct resolutions. Super-HDTVs support 1080p. Apples and Oranges my friend.
merc, I just posted in response to another one of your tiresome threadcrapping episodes that I wasn't going to take the time anymore to bother to rebut your misinformation, but this part of your post illustrates beautifully how little you know about what you're arguing against.

What the hell is a "Super-HDTV"?!? 1080p24 is part of the ATSC HD spec, and it's how both formats will store filmic content on the disc (BD natively, HD-DVD via a 1080i carrier with flags to enable a 1080p24 extraction).

If you think 1080p24 requires a "Super-HDTV," then why are you so up in arms about your non-Super HDTV not being able to take full advantage of these new formats?

Alex doesn't live here anymore
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post #196 of 233 Old 08-13-2005, 07:10 AM
 
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Here you go Alex,
Quote:
An HDTV-compatible TV usually uses a 16:9 aspect ratio. The high resolution images (1920 pixels × 1080 lines or 1280 pixels × 720 lines) allow much more detail to be shown compared to analog television or regular DVDs, though they are upscaled to the native resolution of the TV. MPEG-2 is currently used as the compression codec. Like NTSC and PAL, 1920 × 1080 broadcasts use interlacing at 50 or 60 fields per second to reduce bandwidth demands, at 24, 25 and 30 frames/sec progressive scan is used. Alternating scan lines are broadcast 50 or 60 times a second, similar to PAL's 50 Hz and NTSC's 60 Hz interlacing. This format is entitled 1080i, or 1080i60. In areas traditionally using PAL 50 Hz 1080i50 is also used. 1080p is currently used for broadcasting with less than 50 frames/sec. Progressive scan formats are also used with frame rates up to 60 per second. The 1280 × 720 format only supports progressive scan (with the entire frame refreshed each time) and is thus termed 720p. FOX, ABC, and ESPN (ABC and ESPN are both owned by Disney) currently broadcast 720p content.
Although MPEG-2 supports up to 4:2:2 YUV chroma subsampling and 10-bit quantization, HD broadcasts use 4:2:0 and 8-bit quantization to save bandwidth.
HDTV is capable of "theater quality" audio because it uses the Dolby Digital (AC-3) format to support "5.1" surround sound.
For more technical details see the articles on ATSC, DVB, and ISDB, respectively.
Seems like 1080p24 may be used as a broadcast format, but not as a display format according to the HDTV rules. Pal HD also allows 1080i50. So what? High Definition resolutions for years have included only 720p and 1080i.
If the new HDCP-DVD and HDCP-Ray formats do not use the standard high defintion resolutions like 720p and 1080i for their display output, then that is even more reason to refer to them as a new Super High Definition Standard since not even most HDCP input HDTV owners would be able to view a native 1080p24 image.

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I wasn't going to take the time anymore to bother to rebut your misinformation
Ha! When pigs fly! :)
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post #197 of 233 Old 08-13-2005, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by merc
HSeems like 1080p24 may be used as a broadcast format, but not as a display format according to the HDTV rules.
What "HDTV rules" might these be that you're referring to? You quote something, but don't attribute the quote to anyone or anything.

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post #198 of 233 Old 08-13-2005, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amillians
What the hell is a "Super-HDTV"?!? 1080p24 is part of the ATSC HD spec, and it's how both formats will store filmic content on the disc (BD natively, HD-DVD via a 1080i carrier with flags to enable a 1080p24 extraction).
Uhh, yes. . . . what exactly is "Super-HDTV"?

Alex is absolutely correct that the ATSC standard already supports 1080p24. 1080p60 has been defined for years in SMPTE standards. SMPTE 274M covers various 1920x1080 standards and is, in fact, referenced in the ATSC standard. The ATSC standard itself discusses 1080p60. SMPTE 274M calls it "HDTV", not "Super-HDTV".

Merc, you do know that the ATSC standards are primarily broadcast standards, not display standards, don't you? Or is there some other standard you're referring to?

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post #199 of 233 Old 08-13-2005, 04:41 PM
 
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Merc, you do know that the ATSC standards are primarily broadcast standards, not display standards, don't you? Or is there some other standard you're referring to?
Dale,
Thanks for clearing up the confusion.... now I understand what amillians was doing. So when I was speaking of 720p and 1080i as being high definition display resolutions, I was correct. It then seems that amillians tossing in some ATSC broadcast standard resolutions, in with my display standards resolutions, simply served to mix apples and oranges.

As for Super-HDTV, that is my term for a display which can accept and natively display an image at a higher resolution than HDTVs. :)
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post #200 of 233 Old 08-13-2005, 05:17 PM
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1080p is part of the ATSC HD standards. 1080p displays have been available in front projection for years and is now available in a number of RP HDTV's.

Super-HDTV has no meaning, and should not be used, to help prevent confusion.

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post #201 of 233 Old 08-13-2005, 05:26 PM
 
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1080p is part of the ATSC HD standards.
Well, then I guess we all should be pissed since most of us bought TVs which were sold to us as being HDTVs.... :eek:
I guess as long as no one broadcasts in 1080p, no one will be any wiser?

This crap gets worse and worse as we find out more and more... :mad:
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post #202 of 233 Old 08-13-2005, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by merc
Dale,
Thanks for clearing up the confusion.... now I understand what amillians was doing. So when I was speaking of 720p and 1080i as being high definition display resolutions, I was correct.
True. They're also broadcast standards, though, just as 1080p is.

Quote:
It then seems that amillians tossing in some ATSC broadcast standard resolutions, in with my display standards resolutions, simply served to mix apples and oranges.
It seems to me that you're the one always mixing things up. Everything Alex has said has made perfect sense - you may not like it, and may not like what the studios are doing (neither do I, for that matter, but it doesn't and won't change the reality of the situation) - but what he's said has been perfectly correct and perfectly logical.

Quote:
As for Super-HDTV, that is my term for a display which can accept and natively display an image at a higher resolution than HDTVs.
It appears to me that you used that term to refer to 1080p. As pointed out earlier, that's part of the ATSC spec (which is what I assume you mean by "HDTV" - if it's not, please state what is), and is also part of years-old SMPTE specs for HDTV display signalling standards. In the future you might want to avoid making up terms, not explaining what they mean, and then using them in a confusing manner.

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post #203 of 233 Old 08-13-2005, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by merc
Well, then I guess we all should be pissed since most of us bought TVs which were sold to us as being HDTVs....
They are HDTVs. They accept and display HDTV formats and resolutions. (There are precious few displays in the world which will accept and display natively all ATSC formats, but that's not really required to be an "HDTV", at least in the common usage of the term.) Just because you didn't understand what that meant is no reason to be angry at someone else who did.

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I guess as long as no one broadcasts in 1080p, no one will be any wiser?
Certainly not you.

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This crap gets worse and worse as we find out more and more.
Many of us have known all this for years. It's not any worse than it's been for the past few years. Most people who have paid attention, at least for the past couple of years or so, have seen this all coming. Again, we may not like it, and may not want it to be that way, but we've known for years that it was leading to this.

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post #204 of 233 Old 08-13-2005, 06:27 PM
 
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It seems to me that you're the one always mixing things up. Everything Alex has said has made perfect sense - you may not like it, and may not like what the studios are doing (neither do I, for that matter, but it doesn't and won't change the reality of the situation) - but what he's said has been perfectly correct and perfectly logical.
Dale,

Alex's comments make perfect sense as do those same comments from Hollywood, however, they do not reflect or apply to the topic which we are discussing here in this thread. His introduction of a mostly unknown, outside of people in the industry, un-used broadcast spec merely helps to hide the fact that when we bought HDTVs we expected and were told that they would display high definition images. Those images were touted as being 720p and/or 1080i. HD wasn't touted as being 1080p. For that reason, NO ONE could be disappointed if their HDTVs did not support the new HDCP-DVD players at 1080p resolution... however, that lack of expectation does not extend to "usual" HD resolutions of 720p and 1080i, IMO.

And, trying to say that you can compare an expectation for an HDTV to receive and display an HD-DVD players output at 720p or 1080i to that same HDTV at 1080p is simply a smokescreen attempt to hide, deflect and defend what Hollywood is doing by arbitrarily, purposefully and un-necessarily obsolescing their most loyal early adopting HDTV owners relatively new HDTVs.

If anything... this example points out again how Hollywood is using obscure(to most folks) specs and even more obscure and unverifiable licensing and business agreements in their dealings with the innocent and mostly unknowledgable public.
Seems like a good topic for a new thread....?

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Certainly not you.
Of course, I am only an AV enthusiast and hobbyist living in the Woods of Texas. I guess if I lived and worked in Anchor Bay, CA, I might take a more businesslike interest in all the specs and licensing agreements between the Studios and the Manufacturers.

Old folks like me would like to think that when we buy something legally, we enter into an honorable and ethical business agreement with regard to that purchase.... we now know that when the other party is Hollywood or their co-conspirator manufacturers, all rules are off and ethics and honor are simply words used by actors in their movies.... :(
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post #205 of 233 Old 08-13-2005, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Dale Adams
Many of us have known all this for years. It's not any worse than it's been for the past few years. Most people who have paid attention, at least for the past couple of years or so, have seen this all coming. Again, we may not like it, and may not want it to be that way, but we've known for years that it was leading to this.
- Dale Adams
I really don't know how you can say that, when I got my first HDTV circa 2002, seems there were NO DVI or HDMI inputs, there were some firewire at that time.
As for front / rear projectors, I have no interest. I'd think if your here you pay attention!

In reality it only been the last few months that stores like BB have had any selection of these equipped displays, I check weekly. BTW; you can guess I DON'T LIKE IT I'll just sit on the side and enjoy my D-VHS until it's time to replace my displays, by that time HD-Optical may die on it's own (or be a nitch market product like M$ WMV-HD), as it should the way it's pitched today. Remember YMMV, like opinions in general.

Have a great day.

It is "WOW" TV!
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post #206 of 233 Old 08-13-2005, 06:55 PM
 
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Many of us have known all this for years. It's not any worse than it's been for the past few years. Most people who have paid attention, at least for the past couple of years or so, have seen this all coming. Again, we may not like it, and may not want it to be that way, but we've known for years that it was leading to this.
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I really don't know how you can say that, when I got my first HDTV circa 2002, seems there were NO DVI or HDMI inputs, there were some firewire at that time.
I got my 64" Pioneer HDTV in November, 2001 and DVI inputs were only a dream of folks also dreaming of owning digital TVs at a decent price. Even now, my HDTV is Pioneers latest and greatest CRT model and its' little 53" brother is still being sold as new, and as a "real" HDTV, in Walmarts and other Retailers across the country....

Seems like caveat emptor, with regard to our hobby, now requires an attorney and a team of investigators. :(
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post #207 of 233 Old 08-13-2005, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by merc
Alex's comments make perfect sense as do those same comments from Hollywood, however, they do not reflect or apply to the topic which we are discussing here in this thread. His introduction of a mostly unknown, outside of people in the industry, un-used broadcast spec merely helps to hide the fact that when we bought HDTVs we expected and were told that they would display high definition images.
But they do, don't they? Simple question - If you feed your HDTV an analog 720p or 1080i image does it display it? If so, then it does what it was advertised to do, which is display an HD image. Not every HD image format or standard that will ever be invented, but those in common use at the time you bought your display. (And even that may not be true if you bought it recently, as HDCP-protected DVI outputs have been around for more than a few months.)

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Those images were touted as being 720p and/or 1080i. HD wasn't touted as being 1080p. For that reason, NO ONE could be disappointed if their HDTVs did not support the new HDCP-DVD players at 1080p resolution... however, that lack of expectation does not extend to "usual" HD resolutions of 720p and 1080i, IMO.
So you're saying that your HDTV won't, in fact, display an analog 720p or 1080i image? Then I'd agree, you have a cause for complaint and possible legal redress. Note that from all accounts, the first round of HD optical disc players won't even produce a 1080p output, so the smokescreen you (not Alex) are trying to raise is invalid.

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And, trying to say that you can compare an expectation for an HDTV to receive and display an HD-DVD players output at 720p or 1080i to that same HDTV at 1080p is simply a smokescreen attempt to hide, deflect and defend what Hollywood is doing by arbitrarily, purposefully and un-necessarily obsolescing their most loyal early adopting HDTV owners relatively new HDTVs.
There's no smokescreen here and you're missing the point entirely. If you said that you have an expectation for your HDTV to display an analog HD image, which was the signal format in common use at the time you bought your display, and that it would not do so, then I could understand your issue. But what you're really saying is that a new HD optical disc format has been invented (and which is not yet even available), and that it will use an output format that wasn't previously in wide use and that's not compatible with the display you purchased (perhaps years ago), and that somehow this is all the fault of the people who sold you the display.

That's simply not true. The consumer electronics industry changes and evolves, sometimes very rapidly. There are many reasons for this. Some practical, some political, and some downright silly. But the reality is that this industry changes rapidly, continuously adopts new formats and media, and that this process results in a continuous sequence of obsolete equipment. For example, I have a very large laser disc collection. My laserdisc player won't play DVDs. At the time I bought it, DVD's didn't even exist (although they'd been discussed and I knew they were coming . . . someday). Does that make me upset that my laserdisc player doesn't play the 'new' optical format? Of course not. Or should I be blaming the evil industry for changing optical disc formats just to make me buy new equipment?

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Of course, I am only an AV enthusiast and hobbyist living in the Woods of Texas. I guess if I lived and worked in Anchor Bay, CA, I might take a more businesslike interest in all the specs and licensing agreements between the Studios and the Manufacturers.
You've got to be kidding. Anchor Bay has a population of maybe 80. I'm surrounded by nothing but forest and boulders (and a lot of fog right now), there's no decent electronics store for many miles, I can't get DSL or cable modem (or even ISDN, for that matter), and half the stuff I buy I either have to order over the internet or drive 100 miles to get.

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Old folks like me would like to think that when we buy something legally, we enter into an honorable and ethical business agreement with regard to that purchase.... we now know that when the other party is Hollywood or their co-conspirator manufacturers, all rules are off and ethics and honor are simply words used by actors in their movies....
Where did Hollywood ever promise you that your HDTV (which they didn't engineer, manufacture or sell) would work with every as yet un-invented technology? They didn't and it would silly to expect this. Yet, you seemingly have this expectation.

Are you unhappy that the latest neat, gee-whiz technology is not compatible with your TV? Sure. I'd also prefer that new video source devices provide both analog and digital HD-resolution outputs, and I don't like it if they don't. That doesn't mean that I have any moral or legal right to have them do so. It is a (relatively) free marketplace. If a company is offering goods for sale that don't meet your needs, then don't buy them. If most consumers agree with you then those goods will fail in the market. If you feel that this is an area that needs to be regulated by government (although we have too damn many of those now, IMHO), or that there's been an illegal conspiracy of some sort, then your beef is with government or the legal system.

Hollywood has always been paranoid. This has been obvious since the first consumer videotape machines became available. It was even more obvious when the first DVD players came out, and then when progressive and upconverting DVD players became available. If you paid any attention to history at all, you would never believe they were ever going to release HD-resolution versions of their products without there being some type of restriction on how that product is used and distributed. It really should be no surprise that the restrictions they came up with limit the use of those products.

- Dale Adams
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post #208 of 233 Old 08-13-2005, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by mikey p
I really don't know how you can say that, when I got my first HDTV circa 2002, seems there were NO DVI or HDMI inputs, there were some firewire at that time.
Because it's true?

DVI with HDCP is not something which was invented a year or two ago, folks. Heck, HDMI has been talked about and publicized for years, let alone DVI/HDCP which predated it.

- Dale Adams
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post #209 of 233 Old 08-13-2005, 09:12 PM
 
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Well Dale, if I am so wrong about you and your knowledge of AV stuff and the industry, why not tell us all again what industry you work in??? ;) If you are indeed not related at all to the industry, then I admire you for your knowledge and research required to know what you know as just an AV Enthusiast. Kudos to you then! Probably you can make alot of money in the future researching each and every component for each of us with regard to Hollywood licensing and copyright compliance.

All your other comments have already been used repeatedly by defenders of Hollywood in order to rationalize their misleading with regard to what HDTVs are supposed to support. On the surface, my guess was that high definition TVs were made to show high definition sourced images. DOH!!! Now I know better as do we all.

If my HDTV truly supported HD-DVD at high definition image display rez, then I have no problem.

If the new format was called HDCP-DVD, then, I too would understand that Hollywood had moved to a new non-HD format with regard to their new discs and feel less insult too. If Hollywood would publish their new players and formats as Phone Home, AAC-AAC, HDCP-DVD players and discs... then and only then would they be approaching something like real truth in advertising. ;)
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post #210 of 233 Old 08-13-2005, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Dale Adams
DVI with HDCP is not something which was invented a year or two ago, folks. Heck, HDMI has been talked about and publicized for years, let alone DVI/HDCP which predated it.
DVI hasn't been around that long, let alone HDMI.

In early 2002 I was working at a company that was involved in designing portions of the semiconductors that would be used in DVI systems. As I recall, at that point in time, nothing was on the market from anyone, although DVI was being talked about as the "next big thing"

So I know it has been on the market for less than three years.
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