E* ordered to shut down DVR's within 30 days - BLOCKED by Federal Appeals Court - Page 9 - AVS Forum
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post #241 of 267 Old 08-28-2006, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by havlicek
Unless there is some limited claim construction of the phrase "control commands from a user" or E* is prepared to stop using MPEG or an equivalent, it will not be an easy design around for E*. Check out claim 1 of U.S. Patent No. 6,233,389 that E* was found to infringe:

1. A process for the simultaneous storage and play back of multimedia data, comprising the steps of:

accepting television (TV) broadcast signals, wherein said TV signals are based on a multitude of standards, including, but not limited to, National Television Standards Committee (NTSC) broadcast, PAL broadcast, satellite transmission, DSS, DBS, or ATSC;

tuning said TV signals to a specific program;

providing at least one Input Section, wherein said Input Section converts said specific program to an Moving Pictures Experts Group (MPEG) formatted stream for internal transfer and manipulation;

providing a Media Switch, wherein said Media Switch parses said MPEG stream, said MPEG stream is separated into its video and audio components;

storing said video and audio components on a storage device;

providing at least one Output Section, wherein said Output Section extracts said video and audio components from said storage device;

wherein said Output Section assembles said video and audio components into an MPEG stream;

wherein said Output Section sends said MPEG stream to a decoder;

wherein said decoder converts said MPEG stream into TV output signals;

wherein said decoder delivers said TV output signals to a TV receiver; and

accepting control commands from a user, wherein said control commands are sent through the system and affect the flow of said MPEG stream.
I beleive the whole crux of the issue is the "Media Switch" which is essentially a cutom chip that allows the recording and playback data to be moved directly from the encoder to the harddrive and directly from the hard drive to the decoder. I *THINK* you have to do all those steps in order for it to be infringing. So skip the media swtich and you are off the patent hook

I believe the media switch also indexes the data so that the unit can quickly jump to a new location. I have a dvd player with the same 8 second your wife is talking rewind button that a tivo has- when i hit the button on the tivo it rewinds 8-seconds instanteously- on the DVD player it takes a measurable amount of time while the CPU figures out what to do.

I believe DISh could rewrite their code to avoid the media switch and instead run all the data though the CPU. With a modern CPU it probably woulnd't matter (windows media center probably just does 8 second rewind by brute CPU power) but with the undersized cpu's in these early generation DVR's i think the instantanous nature of the transport controls would dissappear and usability would become more like a VCR.

BUT I AM NOT A LAWYER OR A PATENT OFFICER so anyoen feel free to correct me...
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post #242 of 267 Old 08-28-2006, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by awleung
No doubt, Tivo has gained a strong bargaining position against E* by virtue of the favorable judgment at the District Court level.

I'm no patent attorney and I've not read much about the case, but I remember studying patent law in law school. Compared to judgments from other types of lawsuits, judgments involving issues of patent law generally stand a lower chance of being upheld on appeal. There are a number of reasons for this, but the most prominent reasons include the fact that patent cases are appealed to the Federal Circuit (a specialized appellate court that hears all patent appeals across the country), District Court judges and juries are often ill-equipped to handle the technical nature of patent disputes, and District Court judgments are given a mostly fresh review on appeal with respect to the legal issues.

I mention all of this only to emphasize that the war is far from over. Tivo won the first battle, and more often than not that drives the parties towards settlement. But the judgment's dollar figure is certainly significant, and that alone might compel E* to fight to the bitter end. We shall see.
I agree this is likley just the first of many battles but i believe this particular court in texas is known accross the country for handling patent cases quickly and cleanly- resulting in less overturned rulings.

Tivo picked that location in the middle of nowhere for a reason.
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post #243 of 267 Old 08-28-2006, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood
How much would it take to buy TIVO out?

Would more people buy the same boxes if they did nothing other than put TIVO labels on them?

I'm not really into the stock market but I belive TiVO is worth around 500 million.

So 250 million would presumably buy a controlling interest.

Ergen is on the hook today for about 100 million in the origonal judgement and tivo is contemplating an appeal to triple the damages to 300 million. Plus if he gets the injunction stayed but ultimately loses then the award goes up with addtional fines plus interest- I believe it was 74 million in April and now it's almost 100 million so it seems to grow quickly.

I read that the average price of defending one's self in that texas disctrict is 2.5 million per 25 million suit. So toss lawyers fees in.

UNless ergen thinks he has good odds on an appeal, I'd think just coughing up the 250 million to get ownershop of tivo would be the thing to do.

His Loss could be enough to make SciAtl and Moto and the cable companies agree to pay royalties. Plus he could screw with Rupert some!

Tivo has till wednesday to file why the temporary stay on the injuction should be lifted. One has to wonder if they sucessfully get the injunction reinstated and Ergen has to shut down or patch his dvr's by Mid September that buying Tivo becomes more likely...

I think any settlement is going to cost more than the 100 million considering TiVo will likely want a monthly fee per box and usually they seem to get a buck a box. So buying they looks more and more economical.

Anyone else agree?
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post #244 of 267 Old 08-28-2006, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigglare
Dish Network should work out a deal with ReplayTV to brand their DVRs as ReplayTV units. Since Tivo and ReplayTV seemed to have hashed out their suit/countersuits in regards to each others conflicting patents.
I asked that on anothe board and the lawyers said that tivo likely only gave replay rights to the tivo patents in replay boxes and not for other boxes that might have replay software.

But my non-lawyer butt didn't understand the differnce...

Maybe it's cheaper for Ergen to buy replay from denon (or whoever owns 'em)- then what?
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post #245 of 267 Old 08-28-2006, 07:32 PM
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Tivo has market cap of $680 million, and any hostile takeover bid would have to offer around a premium - maybe around 30%. Plus, there could be a charter requirement for 70% shareholder approval for a bid to be successful. All that for a business that hasn't turned a profit in the history of it's existence.
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post #246 of 267 Old 08-29-2006, 06:40 AM
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Replay had it's own patents that it was sueing Tivo for. They basically called a truce to prevent mutual destruction.

This really isn't about patents that tivo owns that may or may not have been aquired and developed simultaneously as Replay rendering tivo's patents invalid. This is about Tivo's Survivablility in the DTV future.

Come March 1st all television devices have to have digital tuners. Series 2 Does not have digital tuner only the Series 3 and Directv boxes. All Tivo will have is Series 3 to sell after that.

Tivo is likely not planning an SDTV series 2. Faced with being cut off from mass appeal by the Series 3 price of about $700, they wont be able to attract the general masses who would otherwise aggree to a service contract for a free tivo.

These lawsuits are Tivos next business model. Where subscriber fees are dropping because of Cable and Satellite service DVRs or stand alone DVRs that are pulled from market as fast as they come to market, tivo is adopting the If-you-can't-beat-em-Sue-em approach.

One thing for certain, I'm not likely to buy anything Tivo branded myself any time soon over this.
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post #247 of 267 Old 08-29-2006, 11:41 AM
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Judging from the fact E* had just agreed to settle in the distant signal suit with the networks, it is likely the same would happen with Tivo, unless Charlie truely beleives he can stick it to Tivo in the end.
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post #248 of 267 Old 08-29-2006, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigglare
Come March 1st all television devices have to have digital tuners. Series 2 Does not have digital tuner only the Series 3 and Directv boxes. All Tivo will have is Series 3 to sell after that.
Analog cable will be going strong long after that, which is the exact target audience for the S2DT box.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigglare
These lawsuits are Tivos next business model.
And what do you call the Cox deal that got done right after E* got nailed? If E* wanted to work with Tivo they could've, D* did, Comcast did, and now Cox is doing it.
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post #249 of 267 Old 08-29-2006, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speavler
Tivo has market cap of $680 million, and any hostile takeover bid would have to offer around a premium - maybe around 30%. Plus, there could be a charter requirement for 70% shareholder approval for a bid to be successful. All that for a business that hasn't turned a profit in the history of it's existence.
Not turning a profit in the past is a good thing for any potential buyers, since they can use Tivo's historical losses to balance out any future earnings, and save some tax on them. Don't know exactly what corp tax rate is, but considering Tivo's ~$600mil accumulated losses so far, at 30% tax rate it would be worth $200mil.
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post #250 of 267 Old 08-30-2006, 03:59 PM
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Analog cable or not. Since it has a tuner it will have to have a digital tuner come march1. So even if the Series 2 is intended for Cable users, it will still need a digital tuner. Which means either Tivo drops it or they update it.

If they dont update the series 2 for SDTV they will lose a large ammount of future subscribers via their own TIVO boxes who cant or wont pay 700 for the series 3. So these lawsuits and Deals with cable companies to prevent future lawsuits is giving Tivo its lifesaving cash flow.

Tivo is becoming worse than Microsoft by going after anyone with a DVR. Hell even Sony stopped selling their recent HD-DVR that went away as fast as it came along. TIVO is ruthlessly creating a monopoly by eliminating through the courts all possible competitors All in the name of "Protecting their Intellectual property." Pretty soon we'll have to pay a TIVO subscription for recording any DTV.
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post #251 of 267 Old 08-30-2006, 04:33 PM
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Not only that, another revenue source Tivo is aggressively seeking is by selling Tivo users' TV viewing habit data Tivo boxes managed to store and sent back to Tivo. Watch out Tivo lovers, better cut back on your porn consumption:)
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post #252 of 267 Old 08-30-2006, 05:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yunlin12
Not turning a profit in the past is a good thing for any potential buyers, since they can use Tivo's historical losses to balance out any future earnings, and save some tax on them. Don't know exactly what corp tax rate is, but considering Tivo's ~$600mil accumulated losses so far, at 30% tax rate it would be worth $200mil.
That's a whole different can of worms. Lots of hoops you have to jump through to get full use of those NOL carryovers.
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post #253 of 267 Old 08-31-2006, 05:44 AM
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E*'s countersuit against Tivo on its own patents has been stayed pending reexamination of E*'s patents by the patent office:

http://271patent.blogspot.com/2006/0...ion-in-ed.html
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post #254 of 267 Old 08-31-2006, 09:26 PM
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E* had said both in their press release and their chat with the retailers that their engineers are working on new code to allow their DVRs remain functional without infringing on the Tivo codes. If E* has any foresight anticipating the possibility of losing the patent suit, they might have designed the newest DVRs in a way to allow easy code rewrite. If so the 622 will definitely be one of them since it is the newest kid on the block.

I hope Charlie and his engineers had prepared for this outcome and they knew what they were talking about when they said they are working on the new code.
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post #255 of 267 Old 08-31-2006, 09:47 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigglare
Analog cable or not. Since it has a tuner it will have to have a digital tuner come march1. So even if the Series 2 is intended for Cable users, it will still need a digital tuner. Which means either Tivo drops it or they update it.

If they dont update the series 2 for SDTV they will lose a large ammount of future subscribers via their own TIVO boxes who cant or wont pay 700 for the series 3. So these lawsuits and Deals with cable companies to prevent future lawsuits is giving Tivo its lifesaving cash flow.

Tivo is becoming worse than Microsoft by going after anyone with a DVR. Hell even Sony stopped selling their recent HD-DVR that went away as fast as it came along. TIVO is ruthlessly creating a monopoly by eliminating through the courts all possible competitors All in the name of "Protecting their Intellectual property." Pretty soon we'll have to pay a TIVO subscription for recording any DTV.
Todays patent infringement is tomorrows anti-trust...

I'm telling you, D* and Tivo are in kahootz to bankrupt E*...they both are attacking without even anything to win at this point...they just want blood, nothing more...
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post #256 of 267 Old 09-10-2006, 01:18 PM
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I disagree with you guys. I think Tivo has a legitimate case. The cable cos, D*, and E* all made clone products without paying TiVo for it.
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post #257 of 267 Old 09-10-2006, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigglare
....

Come March 1st all television devices have to have digital tuners. Series 2 Does not have digital tuner only the Series 3 and Directv boxes. All Tivo will have is Series 3 to sell after that.

Tivo is likely not planning an SDTV series 2. Faced with being cut off from mass appeal by the Series 3 price of about $700, they wont be able to attract the general masses who would otherwise aggree to a service contract for a free tivo.

These lawsuits are Tivos next business model. Where subscriber fees are dropping because of Cable and Satellite service DVRs or stand alone DVRs that are pulled from market as fast as they come to market, tivo is adopting the If-you-can't-beat-em-Sue-em approach.

One thing for certain, I'm not likely to buy anything Tivo branded myself any time soon over this.

Not true- Come March first antyhing with AN NTSC tuner must ALSO have an ATSC tuner. there is no requirment to have an ATSC tuner.

The newest SD tivo box has DUAL ANALOG CABLE tuners and cant not get NTSC OTA. That box will be sold for the forseable future.

I'm not sure that sub fees are dropping- I beleive they have gone up every quarter for tivo's entire existance.

I bleive they could stop advertising today and become immediately profitable. THey just are flushing money donw the toilet trying to get market share. Just like DBS did in it's early days and Sat radio is doing now.

I do think they will be more aggressive with their patents in the future though. I dont think that will be their only business model, but likely they think they have some good patents and want to get paid for them.
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post #258 of 267 Old 09-10-2006, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigglare
Analog cable or not. Since it has a tuner it will have to have a digital tuner come march1. So even if the Series 2 is intended for Cable users, it will still need a digital tuner. Which means either Tivo drops it or they update it.
....

see above- totally false.
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post #259 of 267 Old 09-10-2006, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vampz26
Todays patent infringement is tomorrows anti-trust...

I'm telling you, D* and Tivo are in kahootz to bankrupt E*...they both are attacking without even anything to win at this point...they just want blood, nothing more...
TiVo has a HUGE thing to win. If they win all out, they can get upwards of 300 million up front from E*which is a huge chunk of change for them. And then likely E* would be forced to pay around a buck a month for every single deployed DISH DVR, which if I recall are teh most widely deployed DVR's? That would add a huge amount to their recurring income for basically doing NOTHING.

But that's not even the big win. THe big win is they would have even more leverage when they go knocking on Motorolla and Scientific Atlanta's doors asking for their llicense fees to cover thier infringing patents. (Tivo apparently thinks they might infringe too) That would basically give tivo a buck a box for every DVR deployed ever- that's hardly nothign to win.

FOX on the otherhand has likely decided not to settle the DNS case to screw ergen a bit and give Directv an edge. But it's nothing illegal, and certainly nothign ergen wouldn't do himself if he had the chance, so such is life.
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post #260 of 267 Old 09-11-2006, 09:56 AM
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Yes Tivo has a huge thing to win. The question is whether Charlie will be capable of stop Tivo from winning. I believe if E* can technically and economically do a go around of the Tivo patents and still allow their DVRs to function, even if less functional than before, Charlie will go for it just to make sure Tivo crashes. The question is whether that is possible, if not he might have to work out a settlement with Tivo not so different than with the networks on the DNS dispute.

As far as FOX, technically yes they are not doing anything illegal, to the contrary doing so strictly by the law. The problem is the Congress will not like to take the heat when thousands of disgruntled E* subs start calling them during the last stretch of the election months. If they know Congress will step in then insist on going by the book and not taking the money may not be that smart a move anymore.

In both cases it is a gamble, but among all the parties, only Charlie is a known gambler.
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post #261 of 267 Old 09-11-2006, 02:14 PM
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it's only 800,000 subs who are in danger of getting their channels shut off. Is that enough NATIONALLY to get congress to act? The Senators from the more rural states may "investigate" directv. And since they are approtioned by state and not population the senate could possible get somethign past. But what happens in the house? Since they get assigned by population, I'd assume a very small amount of representatives have significant constituienceies that are effected.v How many of the 53 reps from CA are going to care? Well more then half the reps have got to be from areas that totally are covered by LIL programming, so how many will give a crap?

Then rupert opens his checkbock and piles of those jump ship.

I dont think Ergen gets much done right now in congress. It might add to the laundry list when he goes to bitch later that FOX is evil, but i cant see this issue alone getting much traction.
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post #262 of 267 Old 09-11-2006, 02:22 PM
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Aslo- I think it's likely DISH can "upgrade" their DVR's to work aorund the tivo patent in question. If I understand correctly, all they have to do is move the data through the cpu instead of directly from the drive to the decoder. I am no engineer but i think that's doable, BUT you loose significant speed on the transport controls that way if i get it. You can get 8 second rewind on a $40 DVD player but it takes 3 seconds to respond to the copmmand. I suspect that's becasue the box doesn't have the "media switch" that Tivo uses and DIsh copied (on purpose or by accident) that speeds the whole thing up. So if a $40 dvd can take a stream off a disc and get it to the decoder without the TiVo "media switch" , then I have to imagine that a $200 DVR can do it too.

Since DISH says they are working on a work around, I've got to think that's their plan and that they figure they can pull it off soon.

For future DISH boxes you just soup up the CPU and you likely dont even take such a performance hit.
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post #263 of 267 Old 09-11-2006, 09:26 PM
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And 622 may already have such CPU power to cut Tivo out if E* had any foresight.

As far as DNS, it is not just rural America, but all the wealth RV and yacht owners. But even if the DNS have to be shut off, with E* adding more LILs to cover 175 (?) markets, the impact will be negligible.
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post #264 of 267 Old 09-12-2006, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelk
I agree this is likley just the first of many battles but i believe this particular court in texas is known accross the country for handling patent cases quickly and cleanly- resulting in less overturned rulings.

Tivo picked that location in the middle of nowhere for a reason.
Google for "East Texas", "Patent", and "rocket docket".

http://www.dallasnews.com/s/dws/bus/...1.3eb99e4.html

http://www.wsgr.com/news/PDFs/092020...entpirates.pdf

http://www.overlawyered.com/2005/01/...t_central.html

"Juries in East Texas, unlike those in Houston, Dallas or Austin, are much less likely to have a member with any technical training or education, which exacerbates the problem from the defense perspective, but makes East Texas federal courts an attractive venue for would-be plaintiffs, who know that the jury will, instead, gravitate toward softer or superficial issues that are difficult to predict." The result is to facilitate the activities of what Tyler calls "patent pirates": enterprises that exist to file patent suits rather than to manufacture products, and which benefit from asymmetrical costs of litigation (discovery in a patent case can cost the manufacturer-defendant a million dollars or more, while the plaintiff license-holder may have few or no documents worth discovering).
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post #265 of 267 Old 09-18-2006, 03:30 AM
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This thread is dated 8-18, today is 9-18, any news? This is basically the only thing keeping me from signing up with Dish right now.
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post #266 of 267 Old 10-04-2006, 05:41 AM
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http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/061003/20061003006230.html?.v=1

ENGLEWOOD, Colo.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--EchoStar Communications Corporation (NASDAQ: DISH - News) issued the following statement regarding recent developments in the Tivo Inc. v. EchoStar Communications Corp. lawsuit:
Tuesday October 3, 5:48 pm ET

"We are pleased the Federal Court found that EchoStar has a 'substantial case on the merits' and blocked the Texas decision for the duration of the appeal. This action by the Federal Court reinforces our belief that the Texas court made significant errors during the trial process and we look forward to complete vindication of our position.

As a result of the Court action, our customers will not be disrupted and all of our DVR models will continue to be available through the EchoStar distribution system."
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post #267 of 267 Old 11-01-2006, 06:12 AM
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Be ready to apply TIVO stickers to your DishDVR's ?

http://www.pvrwire.com/2006/10/31/se...vo-v-echostar/
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