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post #331 of 18660 Old 01-17-2007, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riverside_Guy View Post

You are TOTALLY WRONG. I was responding to a post in this thread, that I correctly quoted.

In your zeal to nitpick anything I say, you have lost track of following the discussion. This constant nitpicking is getting very tiresome.

Sorry, I was trying to clarify a post that didn't make sense in this context and didn't nitpick here in regards to that.

But as you brought it up: Yes, I do have a zeal to nitpick sweeping incorrect statements that assume that everything is the same as it is in NYC. You have a tendency to do this in some other threads and I have have not hesitated to point out that there are other systems and situations. Just because something is true in Manhattan does not mean it is true in Rochester (or anywhere else).

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post #332 of 18660 Old 01-17-2007, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Paul Simoneau View Post

Welcome to the club. Dave's really good at mis-reading, mis-quoting, and mis-leading anyone he disagrees with. Don't expect him to change his behavior and/or attitude, though.

Yes, Paul - you would know.

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post #333 of 18660 Old 01-17-2007, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

Yes, Paul - you would know.

Thanks for illustrating my point, once again. Your act is tiresome....
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post #334 of 18660 Old 01-17-2007, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riverside_Guy View Post

You are TOTALLY WRONG. I was responding to a post in this thread, that I correctly quoted.

In your zeal to nitpick anything I say, you have lost track of following the discussion. This constant nitpicking is getting very tiresome.

Uh... I apparently don't want to get on your bad side, but I disagree. You responded to a quote:

"I will give that a test when I get *Navigator* on my 8300HD."
This was in reference to a friend who had tried it on Navigator on another box and it didn't work.

with:

"We both have *passport* and while I suppose it's possible yours won't work that way, I'd be surprised if it did NOT work the same."

That was confusing...
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post #335 of 18660 Old 01-17-2007, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xnappo View Post

Uh... I apparently don't want to get on your bad side, but I disagree. You responded to a quote:

"I will give that a test when I get *Navigator* on my 8300HD."
This was in reference to a friend who had tried it on Navigator on another box and it didn't work.

with:

"We both have *passport* and while I suppose it's possible yours won't work that way, I'd be surprised if it did NOT work the same."

That was confusing...
xnappo

Yes but Riverside-Guy was not talking about this.
Riverside guy was responding correctly to kcmotwcusernot to MTKSU.

Larry

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post #336 of 18660 Old 01-17-2007, 04:03 PM
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Another update from your friendly (but pissed off) Lincoln test market:

The HD-DVRs running Navigator after the most recent update (the one that failed initially) are having IR issues. The box will suddenly stop processing IR commands for anywhere from one minute to five minutes. After that time, it will process everything sent to it during that time in a rapid-fire fashion. Very annoying. I know of at least three that have this issue (of the four people I know with the HD-DVRs in town).
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post #337 of 18660 Old 01-17-2007, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Smith View Post

Another update from your friendly (but pissed off) Lincoln test market:

The HD-DVRs running Navigator after the most recent update (the one that failed initially) are having IR issues. The box will suddenly stop processing IR commands for anywhere from one minute to five minutes. After that time, it will process everything sent to it during that time in a rapid-fire fashion. Very annoying. I know of at least three that have this issue (of the four people I know with the HD-DVRs in town).

Were you doing anything like FF or REW and then Play fairly quickly when it stopped processing commands? The reason I ask is because I can pretty much freeze my 8300 at will doing this, though it only freezes for a few to several seconds, not minutes.

Cheers, Dave
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post #338 of 18660 Old 01-17-2007, 08:10 PM
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I also live in Lincoln Nebraska and I've been having the same problems you have, Brad. Some of my friend have emailed Time Warner here in Lincoln about the problems and have not got a response. I have called them and all they say is they are aware of the problems and they are working on it. I loved the Passport software, I wish I could have it back. Me and my friend joked about moving closer to Omaha so we could have Cox cable instead. I think they need to at least refund their customers the cost of the monthly fees for the DVR.

Time Warner also needs to add more HD channels. Satellite is looking better all of the time.
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post #339 of 18660 Old 01-17-2007, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kcmotwcuse View Post

OMG, Stop it boys.
So boys play nice.

All's cool, just trying to shed some light not looking for a fight.
There's no sand throwing in this box.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleDAZ View Post

Were you doing anything.... quickly when it stopped processing commands?.

Regarding Brad Smith's situation, DoubleDAZ is asking a pertinent question. This delayed remote glitch seems to happen, for some, when additional buttons (or remote commands) are pressed before the first one (command) occurs. It also is more likely to occur when the hard drive is closer to full.

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post #340 of 18660 Old 01-18-2007, 12:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LL3HD View Post

Regarding Brad Smith's situation, DoubleDAZ is asking a pertinent question. This delayed remote glitch seems to happen, for some, when additional buttons (or remote commands) are pressed before the first one (command) occurs. It also is more likely to occur when the hard drive is closer to full.

I will say this I haven't been having any issues like Brad said. Maybe some general lag when trying to stroll through the guide but nothing like he is desribing. I may not be as rigorous as these guys are with it though.
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post #341 of 18660 Old 01-18-2007, 04:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Dorny423 View Post

I will say this I haven't been having any issues like Brad said. Maybe some general lag when trying to stroll through the guide but nothing like he is desribing. I may not be as rigorous as these guys are with it though.

Same Here. Haven't seen that issue yet with the remote, and I have the new one also.

I don't mind the Navigator software all that much...I just can't stand TWC's updating processes since they always seemed plagued with problems. And the replay feature to get back to the start of a show when FF? Highly recommended.
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post #342 of 18660 Old 01-18-2007, 04:47 AM
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Originally Posted by ryane75 View Post

Time Warner also needs to add more HD channels. Satellite is looking better all of the time.

I used to think the same thing until my parents got Dish Network and my brother-in-law got DirectTV. My god, those have got to be the worst user interfaces I've ever seen. Just painful to use.
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post #343 of 18660 Old 01-18-2007, 07:09 AM
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I used to have the Directv TiVo, and I loved the interface. Is their proprietary DVR a lot different?
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post #344 of 18660 Old 01-18-2007, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by kcmotwcuser View Post

OMG, Stop it boys.

My AT8550 remote is not like the Atlas DVR/PVR remote that I was also issued with the DVR. After looking at the Atlas remote the # key is labeled HD/Zoom and it does Zoom/Stretch the screen just like the Video Source button does. The AT8550 doen't have any text around the # button. I still have Passport on my 8300HD. I just know my friends 8300HD with Navigator will not Zoom/Stretch with the Video Source button, he has the AT8400 remote, I just called him and he tried the # button and it would Zoom/Stretch.

I never use the Atlas remote because it is really junk as you have to point it right at the 8300HD to make it work. I guess it is because both IR LEDs are facing front and the AT8500 has one pointing front and the other is facing down. My only guess is the range of view is larger due to this. I happend to get the AT8550 from a tech when he was here as he said it was a better remote and it is made by SA, where as the Atlas is made by UEI Technology. I am sure the UEI is cheaper.

So boys play nice.

Arghhh, so now we have to think about which remote we have! Great... NOT.

Was "Atlas" something other than Universal Remote? I found it interesting that when I went from the 8000 DVR to the 8300HD DVR, I ended up with the same UR5U-8400 remote. I absolutely do have lack of response issues with it, but opnly for the first 4-5 minutes of the 8300 being fully on. But I verge too far O/T...

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post #345 of 18660 Old 01-18-2007, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bphisig View Post

I used to have the Directv TiVo, and I loved the interface. Is their proprietary DVR a lot different?

Visibly, it's pretty different, but still has the vast majority of the features of the DirecTivo, if implemented in a slightly different manner. It has plenty of issues of it's own, but if you have to have a flakey DVR, you might as well have one that has the richest feature set
For the curious, the users manual is here .
I think this is where I'm probably headed. I'd had hopes that Navigator was going to turn the 8300HD into a real DVR, but it looks like this thing is doomed to be the "Fisher Price - My First DVR" of the HD DVR world.
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post #346 of 18660 Old 01-18-2007, 07:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kcmotwcuser View Post

Here is the link to the AT8400 Remote Manual. The AT8550 looks like it but it has more device codes than the AT8550.

Don't you mean more than the AT8400? If you do, and you edit your post, I'll delete this one.

Cheers, Dave
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post #347 of 18660 Old 01-18-2007, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleDAZ View Post

Were you doing anything like FF or REW and then Play fairly quickly when it stopped processing commands? The reason I ask is because I can pretty much freeze my 8300 at will doing this, though it only freezes for a few to several seconds, not minutes.

Just about anything did it. The worst case was after doing nothing for a couple minutes, I tried to change the channel. No response. The DVR was in the no-response mode for another five minutes, then fired the channel change.
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post #348 of 18660 Old 01-19-2007, 12:03 PM
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I got the new version last week, and I'm not any happier with it than the previous version. There were no noticeable changes to any of the functionality of the software.
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post #349 of 18660 Old 01-20-2007, 02:24 PM
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Ha, I have been VERY critical of how they handle software in general and have taken some heavy criticism for it. Everything you point out 100% bolsters my "contention." "Bugs" are issues that arise in field use that most times can't be caught in internal testing, NOT missing or screwed up basic functions. The customers should never be seeing such a lack of basic functioning like starting and stopping a show correctly. Their customers are frakking PAYING MONEY to alpha test their software; in the process missing out on the functionality they contracted for.

While there may be some choice in certain areas, others are far more limited. Yes I COULD drop my DVR service, but guess what? No alternative. Yes I can drop TWC entirely, but might as well almost toss the TV, OTA isn't an option as I'm a concrete canyon dweller.

BTW, I think some may think I'm slamming the programmers... not at all, it's them who manage them that are 100% at fault.

Whew, I needed that rant! I guess my only real hope is that Passport 2.5.066 seemed to go through a lot of time in the field before we got it... don't know for sure, but I'd bet we were the last to get that rollout. Like I said elsewhere, I'm hoping it gets a lot more cooked before I get it!

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post #350 of 18660 Old 01-20-2007, 05:41 PM
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R_G,

Much of the discussion of bugs that I've read over the past 2 years regarding the 8300 centered on missing features in SARA being called bugs and surely you don't subscribe to that idea, do you?

In any case, not recording a complete program based on the IPG start/stop times is a bug IMHO, and a very big one at that. Usually I defend the programmers (who generally only follow the design specs), but in this case, don't you think they share some of the blame, along with managers for letting it out the door in that condition? Personally, I think TWC has shoved this out the door because they are up against a time crunch with the other initiatives they have going and the DST switch coming Mar 11.

Cheers, Dave
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post #351 of 18660 Old 01-21-2007, 07:00 AM
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Dave, missing features aren't really bugs although most folks may call them that. I DO strive to be specific and precise with the terminology I use; I very much use the traditional definition of "alpha" and "beta" and I KNOW I swim against the tide on that one!

"Blame" is a rather complex issue, don't you think? My inclination is most of it belongs with the manager level (speaking from a perspective on having been in exactly that position). Stuff that should NOT be let out being let out is 100% on the manager. Still, there is also a sort of culpability the programmers carry when it appears something that shouldn't be an issue is an issue... look at the situation of this drive works, that drive doesn't with external drives (which doesn't seem that tightly linked to either Passport or SARA). While I do not know for a fact, my somewhat informed guess is that the issue is an inability to consistently deal with multiple volumes. In this day and age, I find NO excuse to NOT properly deal with them. The "programmers" really should have got it right the first time given as how in no way is it any ecsoteric kind of function. Then again, it still comes back to the managers who didn't insist the programmers get it right before "releasing" it to the world. Throw into the mix what I think of as the proper care and feeding of a programmer, an art form that my guess these guys have no clue about.

And yes I do know all about time crunch issues, again from the view of the managers as I've faced the exact same thing. As a manager, the programmer who gave me such a basic bug would get a big demerit, but from the perspective of a customer, it's the manager gets the "blame.".

As for the DST issues, I think we have major lack of vision going on there. We know that specific date roll overs have long been the rule (and I wonder how many here actually know/realize that there are sections in the US that operate outside the time changes?). Very few thought it could change, so they left it "hard coded." As we know from the whole Y2K thing, "hard coding" did cause major issues. So now we are facing the exact same kind of situation? For God's sake, didn't ANYONE actually learn something from that? I'd bet the farm that it's going to cost them a lot more to deal with it as an issue NOW as opposed to dealing with it 6 years ago (see the connection to vision and business).

Anyway, sorry for the side trip...

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post #352 of 18660 Old 01-21-2007, 08:41 AM
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R_G,

I agree, but I just can't leave programmers blameless when it appears that at least some of this is simply shoddy work.

The one thing I find somewhat consistent in all this is kc's reference to problems using the 2100. I haven't taken a look at the specs of this unit, but might it be limited on RAM and unable to download/store 7 days worth of IPG data along with whatever else Navigator needs?

As for DST, we are one of those areas that do not "celebrate" changing times, so we haven't had to deal with some of the issues. Since clocks appear to be sync'd on a daily basis during the IPG update, I'm still a little fuzzy on just what the DST issues are.

I know this is OT, but in the Air Force, we dealt with decade issues every 10 years, and everytime we thought we had everything considered, something we hadn't thought of would pop up 10 years later. I suffered through 3 decade changes and Y2K was actually a good thing because it forced the powers that be to spend the time/money for us to revamp entire databases from 2-digit to 4-digit year fields.

In retrospect it seems silly, but one has to understand that our first Univac 1050-II mainframe had only 32k of RAM and similarly limited storage capability. We used Fastrand drives that had 2 sectors of 80 character each. With such limitations, the 2 extra digits needed for a 4-digit year were a premium. Add to that the fact that early programmers simply didn't know any better. In less than 8,000 years we'll have another Y2K dilemma (5-digit years), but who among us will care?

Cheers, Dave
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post #353 of 18660 Old 01-21-2007, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleDAZ View Post

As for DST, we are one of those areas that do not "celebrate" changing times, so we haven't had to deal with some of the issues. Since clocks appear to be sync'd on a daily basis during the IPG update, I'm still a little fuzzy on just what the DST issues are.

For PASSPORT, the IPG, time display, and most of the box was fine. The bug was in series recordings. Without going and re-reading the discussions -- IIRC, any series recording that held time was off by the hour. I think that the first time I had it (Nov 2003 SA8000HD), it took re-creating every series. Not sure, but I think it went through three iterations of reducing effects each time. The next time, I thought only the first set of shows (or only ones until the IPG rotated through). After the first, though, I always set them up to [This show] + [Any time] with no problems. Not sure whether [First-Run] or [This Channel], or the [Day of the Week] selections had any effect, but I used all of those options fairly extensively with no problems over the other DST changes until I gave up my box Memorial Day Weekend. We just deleted any duplicates of shows with unreliable NEW flags.

v/r,
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post #354 of 18660 Old 01-21-2007, 07:37 PM
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I don't know about Navigator, but I thought the only remaining problem for Passport and SARA was the hard-coded Start Date?

Cheers, Dave
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post #355 of 18660 Old 01-21-2007, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by DoubleDAZ View Post

I don't know about Navigator, but I thought the only remaining problem for Passport and SARA was the hard-coded Start Date?

I know that is correct for SARA.
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post #356 of 18660 Old 01-22-2007, 12:26 PM
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Funny, I thought that at one time you thought I was being too harsh on the programmers! Sloppy and shoddy work on their part would require action from the manager.

A Univac, wow! Some day I'm going to have to figure out what machine it was, but my first encounter was after the age of manually setting switches and the disk drive. The damn thing costs millions, was donated by GET to my college. Fed by punch cards. We had the really fast readers AND what I think was the very first disk drive, it was the size of the outside of the Tardis, cost hundreds of thousands and held something like 512k (ah, maybe it was an actual meg). I also recall the original Space War, took 1/2 to load from 2" mag tape! Even though it was the sixties, it played on this tiny B&W CRT that looked like those curved TVs from the fifties. Ah, enough nostalgia!

I'm still missing something about the time issue. I was fairly sure the DVR got it's "base" time and date data from the head end. Which would seem to make it immune to shifting S/DST. Guides in all likelihood just use "absolute" time, so today's 6 PM new show is the same as tomorrow's 6 PM news show with today being ST and tomorrow DST because the boxes base time/date being adjusted.

Aren't there some reservations that don't follow Washington? And wasn't it the 4 corners that refused to go along? Regardless, I do have fond memories of AZ from ancient times (after the dinosaurs!).

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post #357 of 18660 Old 01-22-2007, 06:01 PM
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I'm sorry, to be clear, I was speaking to Passport in Fall 2003. Spring 2004 and afterward I used [Anytime] on everything and never worried again. I believe there were problems for some there as well. A quick search indicates it was still a problem for some in Fall 2005. There was a call to check for it in Spring 2006, but I did not see a responses.

I am not sure I understand the "hard-coded Start Date", but if it means setting a series recording to record at [08:00 PM] vice [Anytime], I think that is what got him. The [08:00 PM] would not make the transition.

v/r,
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post #358 of 18660 Old 01-22-2007, 06:08 PM
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R_G,

Yes, we have had disagreements on programmer's responsibility from time to time. Being a former programmer, I know what it's like to program to specs only to find that the specs were no good or just plain wrong. I sat on both sides of the fence at different times, programming to specs and designing the specs. A programmer without direct subject knowledge can only do so much to make up for poor specs and that is were I think we find SARA and it's lack of features. Add in cableco's desire to minimize costs at the expense of features and you have a recipe for SARA. I'm sure there are plenty of programmers who are intimitately familiar with DVRs and desired functions. Most of them work for Tivo and some work for Aptiv.

Your comments about managers is spot on and had our previous discussion zeroed in on them instead of the programmers, I think our discussions would have turned out completely different. My only disagreement with anyone has always been placing the blame on programmers and calling them all kinds of names. Call the whole team, including the cableco, a bunch of names and I'm behind you all the way, just don't lay it all on programmers who are oftentimes paid only to code, not question specs.

Re Univac, we had switches that we could set to step through the code one instruction at a time and follow along with a code sheet, alter instructions on the fly, etc. This was all circa 1965 when the Air Force Supply System got their own mainframe computers, had their own cadre of operators/programmers, and controlled the specs and coding. We made plenty of mistakes because it was all learn as you go and we were adapting the supply system to automation at the same time we were learning that automation. They were fun times and if I could go back tomorrow, I would.

Re time issues. Consider a program like Battlestar Gallactica on The SciFi Channel. Today it is on Sunday night in the 11pm MST timeslot. In a few weeks, it will move to the 10pm timeslot. My SARA First Run and Any Time options will catch that (they catch changes now like NCIS tomorrow night) and record it regardless of DST, I believe because they now only key on Day and Title, not timeslot. However, I believe the previous option that I used (I forget what it was) keyed on Title, Day, and Timeslot. Since BSG moved, it got missed. In this example, I think the real issue if the place-holder that gets set for the next episode. That will get set the Sunday before DST and get reset the next day when the Sunday after DST appears in the IPG. When set, BSG is on at 11. When reset, it now needs to find it at 10 and I think the DST date determines how that works. Obviously, I could be wrong.

Re AZ tribes. Yes, some reservations do switch to DST in AZ, the Navajo Nation near the 4 Corners being one.

Cheers, Dave
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post #359 of 18660 Old 01-22-2007, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CANNON-FODDER View Post

I am not sure I understand the "hard-coded Start Date", but if it means setting a series recording to record at [08:00 PM] vice [Anytime], I think that is what got him. The [08:00 PM] would not make the transition.

That is a reference to the start of DST being hard-coded. As it is now, it's coded to start the 1st Sunday of April (I think) and it needs to be changed to the 2nd Sunday in March (or whatever it is). It actually needs to be fixed so it isn't hard-coded at all, since who knows when they'll mess with it again.

Cheers, Dave
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post #360 of 18660 Old 01-22-2007, 06:28 PM
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Got it, I was off in a different area entirely.

I am not sure about the [event] that got him in Fall 2005 was so much a [bug] as it was the box [not over-thinking]. Because it was doing exactly what he told it to do --> look at 08:00 PM on [foo] channel for [bar] program and record it, while ignoring [bar] program on any other channel or time.

That setting seems to be useful to get only the 08:00 PM [foo] showing of a syndicated show like 24, Buffy or Angel. Where there may be several showings at different times and channels, but the one at 08:00 PM on [foo] is sequentially running the season [you] missed.

Should the box adjust these times over DST as well?

v/r,
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