Time Warner Cable Navigator - Page 22 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 44Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #631 of 18705 Old 04-17-2007, 03:11 PM
Wireless member
 
pepar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Quintana Roo ... in my mind
Posts: 24,994
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 75 Post(s)
Liked: 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

Woody, you may or may not be crazy, but you sure seem to be "crazy optimistic". This is TWC we're talking about. Expect the worst, then at least you won't be too terribly disappointed. So far, Navigator has been a disaster for their customers wherever it's been introduced.

But archiguy, Woody still might get the best.
pepar is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #632 of 18705 Old 04-17-2007, 03:12 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Satch Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Metro-Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Posts: 2,722
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Is it true?

With regards to what the Lincoln Nebraska TMC manager said that Navigator must be rolled out nationwide by July to comply with FCC regulations about some software update? Or is this just a rumor? I am in Suburban Milwaukee Wisconsin with a Pioneer box running Passport. Anyone know when I should expect this Christmas present from TWC that I really DON'T want?

Jack

SA-8300-HDC: TWC Navigator: ODN 7.2.11

Metro-Milwaukee Wisconsin

Satch Man is offline  
post #633 of 18705 Old 04-17-2007, 03:23 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
michaeltscott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Posts: 16,667
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 318 Post(s)
Liked: 516
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazywoody View Post

With SARA 1.89 you have a gauge or can go to the dio screen and figure it out yourself if you want to.Seems Navigator is going to be a blend of the best of SARA and the best of PASSPORT.

And what would be the "best" of SARA? I've used both and, except for the implementation of SATA expansion drives being pretty much flawless, SARA does nothing so well as Passport does it. The only thing that can be said for it being superior to what I've heard of Navigator is that SARA actually works as designed.

SARA did have a storage meter, which they've apparently just added to Navigator--maybe that's what you mean (Aptiv announced a version of Passport over a year ago which also added it, though I haven't heard of any place where it was deployed).

Mike Scott (XBL: MikeHellion, PSN: MarcHellion)

"Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
michaeltscott is online now  
post #634 of 18705 Old 04-17-2007, 04:24 PM
AVS Special Member
 
davehancock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Hamburg, NY (near Buffalo)
Posts: 5,413
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Satch Man View Post

Is it true?

With regards to what the Lincoln Nebraska TMC manager said that Navigator must be rolled out nationwide by July to comply with FCC regulations about some software update? Or is this just a rumor?

No, it's not true. What is true is that as of July 1, 2007 the cable companies can no longer deploy new cable boxes that incorporate internal security. What this means is that newly acquired cable boxes can EITHER use CableCards (For Example the SA8300HDC) or use DCAS (Downloadable Conditional Access Security). We are a year or two away from having DCAS to the state where it can be deployed - so the CableCard "solution" will be used for awhile. As this solution costs the cable companies more money, they have been trying to "kill" it by trying to pressure the FCC, etc. Apparently this manager either: 1)doesn't really understand the story and is grasping for excuses to justify their poor project management; or 2) is joining in on the "scare" tactics.

Dave Hancock
davehancock is offline  
post #635 of 18705 Old 04-17-2007, 04:26 PM
AVS Special Member
 
davehancock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Hamburg, NY (near Buffalo)
Posts: 5,413
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

SARA did have a storage meter,

SARA STILLhas a storage meter.

Dave Hancock
davehancock is offline  
post #636 of 18705 Old 04-17-2007, 06:10 PM
AVS Special Member
 
holl_ands's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 3,616
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 57
On July 1, they are ALSO required to work with user-owned STB/DVR/HDTVs employing not only
the current one-way CableCARD, but also new user-owned units running the new OCAP "middleware"
(downloaded from cable headend along with all of the new bells and whistles), which will also
accept the new two-way, dual-stream M-CARD....and DCAS in the future.

Digital Navigator would also be downloaded, although a CE manufacturer may chose to offer their
own variation...just as TiVo will offer their own, extra cost IPG for COMCAST and COX.

Hence cable companies are under the gun to not only hand out OCAP/MCARD enabled STB/DVR's
to "NEW CUSTOMERS", but must also accept new user-owned equipment running the SAME
downloaded OCAP and Digital Navigator software.

Forcing the cable companies to operate with the same new buggy software ("Common Reliance")
has been an important (and legally sustained) requirement reiterated by the consumer equipment manufacturers:
http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/r...ent=6518717081
They will all sink or swim together--- hopefully without the cable companies discriminating against
user-owned equipment, as is done today (and more in future with SDV) wrt CableCARD HDTVs and TiVo Series 3....

NCTA is arguing against the big investment, esp for low-end users:
http://www.ncta.com/IssueBrief.aspx?contentId=3553
But have not been very successful in seeking waivers:
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...C-269446A1.pdf
http://www.lightreading.com/document...14443&site=cdn
BBN waiver was because it helps them go ALL-DIGITAL....and they were a disadvantaged small company.
CableVision temporary waiver was because they already use separable security.
COMCAST was denied, but they may resubmit....and BBT's DCAS implementation was approved.

While CEA is arguing for a low-end STB that is not OCAP based, as well as trying to push all of this off
until lower cost DCAS is ready.

With CE's investing millions in OCAP/MCARD designs (STB/DVR/HDTVs already demo'd at CES2007),
and cable companies already testing it in limited markets, it's a bit late to put this horse in the barn....
but it might get delayed....after all, it's software....

PS: My (TWC-San Diego) SA3250HD (Firewire source) is currently running OCAP without any problems
(although w/o Digital Navigator....so far).
holl_ands is offline  
post #637 of 18705 Old 04-17-2007, 07:21 PM
AVS Special Member
 
davehancock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Hamburg, NY (near Buffalo)
Posts: 5,413
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by holl_ands View Post

On July 1, they are ALSO required to work with user-owned STB/DVR/HDTVs employing not only
the current one-way CableCARD, but also new user-owned units running the new OCAP "middleware"
(downloaded from cable headend along with all of the new bells and whistles), which will also
accept the new two-way, dual-stream M-CARD....and DCAS in the future.

I could well be wrong on this, but I do not believe that the FCC has mandated anything yet in regards to OCAP. They have required regular reporting on progress on this, but as far as I have been able to find, they have not mandated any particular solution. The CableCards are currently the only obvious solution.

I would very much appreciate any links that you might have to FCC documentation (beyond their 2nd report and order, dated 3/17/05) that sheds additional light on just what is required on 7/1/07.

Thanks

Dave Hancock
davehancock is offline  
post #638 of 18705 Old 04-17-2007, 08:13 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
michaeltscott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Posts: 16,667
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 318 Post(s)
Liked: 516
The mandate is for separable security--it has nothing to do with OCAP. When the plug-and-play DTV-over-cable spec emerged, the requirement was for the cable providers to stop deploying boxes with integrated conditional access methods by 1 July 2005--they lobbied for and were given a two year extension on this because they wanted to develop OCAP and multistream CableCARDs (M-CARDs) and introduce them concurrently with satisfying the separable security requirement; this extension was granted over the extreme objection of the CE industry. Now, they want a further extension in order to finish developing DCAS, which would eliminate the need for M-CARDs (though not OCAP). I don't think that they're going to be granted one; we're coming up on the 11th anniversary of the separable security mandate.

Mike Scott (XBL: MikeHellion, PSN: MarcHellion)

"Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
michaeltscott is online now  
post #639 of 18705 Old 04-17-2007, 08:31 PM
AVS Special Member
 
DoubleDAZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Peoria, AZ (75 Ave & T-Bird)
Posts: 9,856
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked: 50
You''re probably right, but I would think it all depends on how close they are to finishing DCAS. It will be pretty stupid to do something as an interim measure just to meet an arbitrary mandate and twice as stupid if it ends up costing comsumers money for yet another boat anchor.

Cheers, Dave
DoubleDAZ is offline  
post #640 of 18705 Old 04-17-2007, 09:00 PM
AVS Special Member
 
davehancock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Hamburg, NY (near Buffalo)
Posts: 5,413
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleDAZ View Post

You''re probably right, but I would think it all depends on how close they are to finishing DCAS. It will be pretty stupid to do something as an interim measure just to meet an arbitrary mandate and twice as stupid if it ends up costing comsumers money for yet another boat anchor.

That's what they have been trying to convince the FCC of - but have so far failed and it looks like they will not succeed.

I'm not sure about the "boat anchor" though. All the mandate implies is that they must start using CableCard equipped boxes for NEW installs after 7/1/07. They can recycle boxes currently in customer hands - but they can't purchase new boxes without CableCard after 7/1/07. Suppose they get DCAS running on 7/1/08 (that's what they are claiming). At that point, they can start deploying those boxes, along with the current boxes and the 7/1/07 CableCard equipped boxes.

Dave Hancock
davehancock is offline  
post #641 of 18705 Old 04-17-2007, 10:01 PM
AVS Special Member
 
DoubleDAZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Peoria, AZ (75 Ave & T-Bird)
Posts: 9,856
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked: 50
Boat anchor is probably not an appropriate term, but I always worry when the government mandates things and consumers end up buying stuff that is outdated very quickly. I'm looking at OCAP allowing us to buy an STB of choice, I don't really care about the cableco's. I'm sure whatever we buy will still work with CC for a long time, but the point is to have the latest option without wasting money. IMHO, pre-DCAS units are just an interim solution (?) to meet the mandate and will not provide the best solution there is. It looks to me like I'll simply have to keep renting a cable unit until DCAS comes to fruition and then take the plunge into adding my own STB to the equipment cabinet. To me it's akin to those here who "bought" an SA3100HD a month before the SA3250HD was released for "rent". Yes, the 3100 still works, but the 3250 was a better solution given the frequency of change in the world of STBs.

Cheers, Dave
DoubleDAZ is offline  
post #642 of 18705 Old 04-18-2007, 05:26 AM
Advanced Member
 
Crazywoody's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Greensboro North Carolina
Posts: 880
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Mike you noticed I said SARA 1.89 not previous versions.1.89 has added the play from beginning while recording that Passport and Tivo already had.However Sara will do SDV and had caller ID on tv screen before Passport.SARA also has a couple of recording options that I do not belive PASSPORT has.SARA also did exterior hard drive add on before PASPORT.Is SARA better than PASPORT NO.But SARA does have several nice features includeing the fuel gauge.Passport has a bunch of features such as a great search engine.That is what I mean about Navigator haveing a blend of SARA and PASSPORT.
Crazywoody is offline  
post #643 of 18705 Old 04-18-2007, 08:01 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Riverside_Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Upper West Side, Manhattan, NYC
Posts: 5,449
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Crazy, read some of Mike Scott's posts, he went from Passport to SARA so he very much experienced both.

Question, a multi-stream "M-Card" was mentioned. Is this what is also called "cable card 2.0" or "2 way cable card?"

I think a LOT of us (on cable systems) would love it if the FCC mandated the cable cos to replace all analog cable STBs, but I doubt that would ever happen! Then again, I really wonder for each specific market, what are the deployed percentages?

BTW, does public data exist that shows exactly how many customers each cable co has in each location?

Time Warner NYC (Man North Head End) - 8742HD DVR ODN 5.2.0_9

Riverside_Guy is offline  
post #644 of 18705 Old 04-18-2007, 08:21 AM
AVS Special Member
 
davehancock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Hamburg, NY (near Buffalo)
Posts: 5,413
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazywoody View Post

Mike you noticed I said SARA 1.89 not previous versions.1.89 has added the play from beginning

Sorry Crazywoody, but SARA 1.88 added the play from the beginning (etc.). Some cable systems did not adopt 1.88 and went from 1.87 to 1.89. BTW, if you would add your location to your profile it would help put your posts into the right context.

Dave Hancock
davehancock is offline  
post #645 of 18705 Old 04-18-2007, 09:14 AM
Newbie
 
le_vampyre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 14
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

SARA did have a storage meter, which they've apparently just added to Navigator--maybe that's what you mean (Aptiv announced a version of Passport over a year ago which also added it, though I haven't heard of any place where it was deployed).

I've seen the gas gauge/storage meter in Passport Echo on Motorola DVR set tops months ago. It showed everything in hours but I prefer looking at the diag page to tell me the disk space. My cousin has the Motorola set top (via Cox). They actually have a lot more advanced features, games and applications than Passport on Scientifica Atlanta set tops. Some of the applications I recall - like the ability of subscribe to Showtime or HBO from the remote, check your bill, set up your remote, play games, etc.

I think Time Warner probably stopped introducing Passport Echo features to their customers because they were going with Navigator which does not have any of those features or applications. Whether you have Passport or Navigator - You cannot release features and then take them back.
le_vampyre is offline  
post #646 of 18705 Old 04-18-2007, 12:51 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
michaeltscott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Posts: 16,667
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 318 Post(s)
Liked: 516
Quote:
Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

SARA STILLhas a storage meter.

Sorry, Dave--I'll watch my verb tenses a little more closely in the future . I was so traumatized by my experience with SARA that I try always to think of it in the past-tense .
Quote:
Originally Posted by le_vampyre View Post

I've seen the gas gauge/storage meter in Passport Echo on Motorola DVR set tops months ago. It showed everything in hours but I prefer looking at the diag page to tell me the disk space. My cousin has the Motorola set top (via Cox). They actually have a lot more advanced features, games and applications than Passport on Scientifica Atlanta set tops. Some of the applications I recall - like the ability of subscribe to Showtime or HBO from the remote, check your bill, set up your remote, play games, etc.

Yeah--Aptiv Digital made this announcement of Passport Echo and Passport DCT (for Moto boxes) 2.7 in October 2005, which has their iSubscribe and Video Mosaic features as well as the View Disk Info option (apparently on the Saved Shows dialog). I hadn't heard anyone in these forums claim to be using it, but we don't have a Passport/Cox thread that I know of.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazywoody View Post

However Sara will do SDV and had caller ID on tv screen before Passport.SARA also has a couple of recording options that I do not belive PASSPORT has.SARA also did exterior hard drive add on before PASPORT.Is SARA better than PASPORT NO.But SARA does have several nice features includeing the fuel gauge.Passport has a bunch of features such as a great search engine.That is what I mean about Navigator haveing a blend of SARA and PASSPORT.

I mentioned that the expansion drive worked flawlessly--I still have a 300GB drive that I was using with my old Cox SARA box. Unfortunately, TiVo's SATA expansion drive feature is currently disabled pending CableLab's approval (it has to store DFAST "Controlled Content" as decoded by CableCARDs).

SDV has got to be implemented in PowerTV middleware and not by the IPG itself. The IPG (SARA, Passport, Navigator, etc) obtains a new channel number either by direct keypad input or from grid-row selection and passes it off to some closer-to-the-metal part of the system to do the tuning, which is where SDV protocols come in (currently, all SDV protocols are proprietary). Passport should be able to use the routines just as easily as any other IPG. If I were the PowerTV group, I'd have invisibly changed the "change channel" API to do SDV.

Do you know of any features other than Caller-ID on screen (if and only if you're a cable telephone subscriber), SATA expansion drives (which no one knows if TWC will support with Navigator, since they don't openly support it now with SARA or Passport) and the storage "fuel gauge" (which I've argued several times in these forums that Passport has no need for with its clever system of graphical impending deletion warnings and ability to sort the saved programs list into order-of-desired-deletion)? I'm pretty certain that SARA doesn't have any recording options that Passport doesn't--Passport's recording features are all-in-all more powerful than TiVo's.

Don't mind me--I'm just still bitter after my nightmare experience going from Passport to SARA (eventually giving up and investing $1000 into TiVo Series 3 plus 3 years of TiVo service).

Mike Scott (XBL: MikeHellion, PSN: MarcHellion)

"Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
michaeltscott is online now  
post #647 of 18705 Old 04-18-2007, 01:23 PM
Advanced Member
 
UnnDunn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Brooklyn, New York
Posts: 780
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riverside_Guy View Post

Crazy, read some of Mike Scott's posts, he went from Passport to SARA so he very much experienced both.

Question, a multi-stream "M-Card" was mentioned. Is this what is also called "cable card 2.0" or "2 way cable card?"

I think a LOT of us (on cable systems) would love it if the FCC mandated the cable cos to replace all analog cable STBs, but I doubt that would ever happen! Then again, I really wonder for each specific market, what are the deployed percentages?

BTW, does public data exist that shows exactly how many customers each cable co has in each location?

No, the M-card is still a one-way CableCARD, it just has the ability to decode two or more streams simultaneously, removing the need to have a CableCARD for each QAM tuner a la TiVo HD.

I have a PS3 now, so I guess I do have Blu-ray. ;)
UnnDunn is offline  
post #648 of 18705 Old 04-18-2007, 01:26 PM
Advanced Member
 
Crazywoody's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Greensboro North Carolina
Posts: 880
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
SARA 1.89 in Greensboro NC here.Actually SARA has more recordin options than TIVO.I used to have a TIVo and miss its interface but sara does have more options.You can record any day i this time slot,any day this channel this time slot,single shows,all shows,first run only or select only the days you want to record something(Manual recording here).Passport lets you pick your days which is simular to sara manal recording mom. friday only ect.Tivo onmy had add or first run or manual recording.Ask any Tivo user how to record only one copy ofthe Daily show.I have used Tivo, Passport and SARA all have thre good and bad points.However all this is moot because sooner or later wqe will have Navigator.I just want it to perform smoothly as SARA and have the Passport features.Hope we all wish for this goal.
Crazywoody is offline  
post #649 of 18705 Old 04-18-2007, 02:34 PM
Advanced Member
 
Crazywoody's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Greensboro North Carolina
Posts: 880
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Mike i feel your pain.I went from TIVO to sara 1.85 and what a bummer.No first run,no play from beginning barely a dvr.Over the years it became a fairly nice dvr.My brother in law in Raleigh has passport and i played a lot with it in envy.However sara 1.89 is a fairly good dvr(not passport or tivo but much better than early sara editions)Let's just hope Navigator gets as feature rich as passport and as stable as sara.
Crazywoody is offline  
post #650 of 18705 Old 04-18-2007, 09:55 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
michaeltscott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Posts: 16,667
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 318 Post(s)
Liked: 516
I should think that the OCAP engine for a SA platform would be built on top of PowerTV, just as the Java VM that you're using on your PC is built on top of Windows or Unix/Linux, etc.

Mike Scott (XBL: MikeHellion, PSN: MarcHellion)

"Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
michaeltscott is online now  
post #651 of 18705 Old 04-19-2007, 01:15 AM
AVS Special Member
 
holl_ands's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 3,616
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnnDunn View Post

No, the M-card is still a one-way CableCARD, it just has the ability to decode two or more streams simultaneously, removing the need to have a CableCARD for each QAM tuner a la TiVo HD.

The MCARD has the ability to mimic current one-way CableCARD-I functions,
and up to SIX one-way CableCARDs, via multistream function.

It ALSO has the ability to perform two-way, multistream operations when used with new
equipment that has OCAP download capability to take advantage of this new feature:
http://www.scientificatlanta.com/pro...654A-4250C.pdf

Here are links to new OCAP STBs with MCARD and DSG:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages...html#POST28633
DSG (DOCSIS Gateway) is a new feature that is needed for "instantaneous" response
to FF/RW commands (read back 2 posts)....which requires new (OCAP/MCARD) STB/DVR/HDTVs...
It's actually a hardware issue (new, high speed QAM256 vice QPSK RDC modulator), vice software.

Note that MCARD (Motorola) and "Multistream CableCARD" (SciAtl) are interchangeable terms.
holl_ands is offline  
post #652 of 18705 Old 04-19-2007, 01:34 AM
AVS Special Member
 
holl_ands's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 3,616
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riverside_Guy View Post

Crazy, read some of Mike Scott's posts, he went from Passport to SARA so he very much experienced both.

Question, a multi-stream "M-Card" was mentioned. Is this what is also called "cable card 2.0" or "2 way cable card?"

I think a LOT of us (on cable systems) would love it if the FCC mandated the cable cos to replace all analog cable STBs, but I doubt that would ever happen! Then again, I really wonder for each specific market, what are the deployed percentages?

BTW, does public data exist that shows exactly how many customers each cable co has in each location?

MCARD, CC-II, 2-way CC are all the same thing, a "Multistream CableCARD".

Here is data re Cable and SAT penetration in various DMAs:
www.tvb.org
Go to RESEARCH CENTER, MARKET TRACK, "Cable and ADS Penetration by DMA"
"ADS" is mostly D*, E* and C-Band.
"Wired Cable" includes all cable subscribers.
"Subscription" seems to mean extra cost (digital/premium) tier subscribers.

Since roughy half of all cable customers are NOT using digital STB (or CableCARD),
it's gonna be difficult convincing them it's a good thing to add an STB for every TV
in the house that's currently connected directly to coax....maybe by Feb2009,
when even OTA will require either a built-in ATSC tuner or an OTA STB.
holl_ands is offline  
post #653 of 18705 Old 04-19-2007, 02:31 AM
AVS Special Member
 
holl_ands's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 3,616
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

I could well be wrong on this, but I do not believe that the FCC has mandated anything yet in regards to OCAP. They have required regular reporting on progress on this, but as far as I have been able to find, they have not mandated any particular solution. The CableCards are currently the only obvious solution.

I would very much appreciate any links that you might have to FCC documentation (beyond their 2nd report and order, dated 3/17/05) that sheds additional light on just what is required on 7/1/07.

Thanks

I believe you are correct, the FCC has not stipulated a particular solution....their role
is to ensure that proposed solutions fulfill legal and regulatory requirements.....
which leaves a LOT of undefined territory to wander about in....

However, they have approved certain CEA/NCTA proposals for achieving separable security via CableLabs.
CableCARD was one such interim proposal with OCAP/MCARD proposed and approved as a longer term solution.
Subsequently, most cable companies jumped on the bandwagon....
Somewhat by default, it's the primary game plan for Jul2007.

Recently, CableVision's SmartCard was temporarily approved as a separable security method,
primarily because an adapter could plug into CableCARD slots....
But it was not endorsed for long term use.

One (proprietary) DCAS implementation was also recently endorsed.

Whenever the other MSOs finish their DCAS specifications, et.al., a specific proposal
would need to be submitted for approval (2008?)

On 7Nov2006, CEA floated a proposal for a reduced capability, non-OCAP solution,
but NCTA shot it down with extreme prejudice, including a strong letter from "Hollywood":
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post10126886
Many times it is interesting to see the FCC's reasoning....and industry arguments/comments.....
and not just final YES/NO rulings....cuz next time round your opponent will use them against you.....

I can't find CEA documents on their website, but www.ncta.com carefully addresses each Issue,
e.g. see DCR/CableCARD and Integration Ban.

The rest are under FCC's CS Docket 97-80:
http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/comsrch_v2.cgi
Enter 97-80 into first field and try to limit search dates....
Forget trying to use FCC's normal text search engine....it's a disaster left over from the 80's...

Here are some TiVo forum posts with a few highlights for same subject:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...2&page=2&pp=30
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...d.php?t=335852

PS: There are two "Second Order and Report" re Navigation Devices,
the first in 2003, establishing the rules:
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...C-03-225A1.pdf
and 2005 follow up "Second Report and Order", with updates and extension to 1Jul2007:
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...CC-05-76A1.pdf

What's missing are various court rulings.....alluded to in the arguments/comments....
holl_ands is offline  
post #654 of 18705 Old 04-19-2007, 08:42 AM
AVS Special Member
 
xnappo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 2,671
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Liked: 46
holl_ands,

Thanks very much for clearing things up!

xnappo
xnappo is offline  
post #655 of 18705 Old 04-19-2007, 09:00 AM
AVS Special Member
 
davehancock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Hamburg, NY (near Buffalo)
Posts: 5,413
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by holl_ands View Post

Forget trying to use FCC's normal text search engine....it's a disaster left over from the 80's...

Ain't that the TRUTH! It sure makes it difficult to really know what is going on.

I'm glad to see that your info pretty much lines up with mine.

While DCAS and OCAP do not appear to, themselves, be mandated - it seems that this certainly is the direction that everyone is headed.

But that makes me wonder: when you buy your new TiVo Series 4 (the next one that I am assuming will be fully OCAP/DCAS capable) and you start aving the kinds of problems that SA8300 owners typically have - who do you complain to? Who will "fix" it? Cable, TiVo, the TiVo dealer?

Dave Hancock
davehancock is offline  
post #656 of 18705 Old 04-19-2007, 09:40 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Satch Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Metro-Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Posts: 2,722
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by kcmotwcuser View Post

If all these enhancements to Navigator really work in the release that Lincoln is getting then Navigator is getting closer to Passport as features. But from the screen shot is saw on the Lincoln web site, Navigator still has a long way to being as visually attractive as Passport. It looks like the graphics are still crap and the banners are huge and solid. Passport still has the visual edge.

I will say TWC has really been working overtime to get these missing features back into Navigator. I know I would be really unhappy if I lost my series priority setting option that I have in Passport. I think that is the main reason there have been so many complaints about shows not recording with Navigator. My friend who has Navigator on his DVR said he had to go to the conflict manager everyday and fix conflicts because Navigator did a horrible job and since the 1st run setting usually didn't work either. So if they have gotten these feature stable and functional, then they might get themselves out of some hot water. But if the is full of bugs they will only upset those Lincoln customer more.

Next they need to work on a search engine and better graphics. It is sad that Lincoln has had to deal with this for almost 6 months just to get an IPG that promises to the same features Passport has had for almost 3 years. We all know that hardware is capable of doing the work, it just needs software that is stable.

BTW....Navigator still uses PowerTV, at least the PowerTV logo pops when i reboot my SA2100.

With regards to the inability to change the font/background colors,

Couldn't this be something that they could work on for the next update? Having a choice of say 3-4 more color options might make Navigator more pleasing to the eye. At least Navigator subscribers would be able to change the color scheme.

It could be that they are working on fixing the major bugs first.

Jack

SA-8300-HDC: TWC Navigator: ODN 7.2.11

Metro-Milwaukee Wisconsin

Satch Man is offline  
post #657 of 18705 Old 04-19-2007, 11:42 AM
AVS Special Member
 
holl_ands's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 3,616
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 57
Just glanced at a few of the latest postings:

Motorola 2Apr2007 ltr sez they can't make a "low-cost" STB using CableCARD,
and cites similar 14Feb2007 comments from Cisco/SciAtl and PACE:
http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/r...ent=6519110100

COMCAST 10Apr2007 ltr summarized their position against the FCC, listing all of the pending waivers:
http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/r...ent=6519109417
Hmmm....sounds like a court date may be next step....

BBT 16Apr2007 ltr gives considerable insight into the on-going battle for DCAS:
http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/r...ent=6519208090
They are ready for a nation-wide deployment of THEIR "open software" solution.
As usual, it all boils down to who gets the royalties.....

And for consumption by those who speak legaleze:
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2...cfr76.1204.pdf
Huh?????
holl_ands is offline  
post #658 of 18705 Old 04-20-2007, 08:28 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Satch Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Metro-Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Posts: 2,722
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Everyone,

With the updates being rolled out to your boxes, how much of an improvement have you noticed? Navigator seems to be getting better from what I have heard/read but still has a way to go before it reaches Passport status.

Jack

SA-8300-HDC: TWC Navigator: ODN 7.2.11

Metro-Milwaukee Wisconsin

Satch Man is offline  
post #659 of 18705 Old 04-20-2007, 02:32 PM
Member
 
Dorny423's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Lincoln, NE
Posts: 53
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Satch Man View Post

Everyone,

With the updates being rolled out to your boxes, how much of an improvement have you noticed? Navigator seems to be getting better from what I have heard/read but still has a way to go before it reaches Passport status.

Jack

It's getting better but you are right when you say it isn't Passport. The changes haven't really been that noticeable, this last one has added a few features though that are obvious. The auto loop back after FF or RW is pretty much useless but the others seem to work fine.

BTW TW here in Lincoln announced today that we are getting ESPNU and ESPN2HD June 1st. I was worried we wouldn't with all the Navigator issues. Other markets seem to be getting it already but I can wait a month and half I guess. They are giving us a preview of ESPNU this weekend more than likely because the Husker baseball team is playing on there this Sunday.
Dorny423 is offline  
post #660 of 18705 Old 04-20-2007, 02:39 PM
AVS Special Member
 
davehancock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Hamburg, NY (near Buffalo)
Posts: 5,413
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorny423 View Post

It's getting better but you are right when you say it isn't Passport. The changes haven't really been that noticeable, this last one has added a few features though that are obvious. The auto loop back after FF or RW is pretty much useless but the others seem to work fine.

BTW TW here in Lincoln announced today that we are getting ESPNU and ESPN2HD June 1st. I was worried we wouldn't with all the Navigator issues. Other markets seem to be getting it already but I can wait a month and half I guess. They are giving us a preview of ESPNU this weekend more than likely because the Husker baseball team is playing on there this Sunday.

You guys DESERVE all the additional HD channels that they have available!

Dave Hancock
davehancock is offline  
Reply HDTV Recorders

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off