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post #901 of 18661 Old 06-17-2007, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Bulldog1975 View Post

I'd come across the following press release from Samsung a week or so ago; I assume that it's the product that HDTVoice is talking about. I know nothing more than what's in the release.

http://www.samsung.com/PressCenter/P...119_0000313783

Thanks for the link.

Cheers, Dave
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post #902 of 18661 Old 06-17-2007, 07:27 PM
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Coming to a cable provider near you -- maybe. The SMT-H3050 from Samsung is set-top box that is embedded with DOCCSIS 2.0 Cable Card and OCAP support for full interactivity. The box can output the video via S-Vid or HDMI and audio through an optical or dig-coax cable. There isn't a price for it yet, as the Samsung staffers don't know if this product is going to hit the retail markets yet, but they are pitching the unit to service providers. It would make sence that a person would buy this product, as this is the first box to allow a user to get all the goodies from their cable company (i.e. program guide, VOD, pay-per-view) without leasing their cable companie's equipment. Why wouldn't Samsung want to sell this item? We are sure some of you would love to kick your cable box to the road. Right?

http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/09/15...ver-smt-h3050/

It looks like the reason TWC needs to release Digital Navigator (OCAP version) is because the Samsung set top box uses OCAP. Also, it uses Cable Cards so it meets the FCC July 1, integration ban.
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post #903 of 18661 Old 06-18-2007, 01:01 PM
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Small update-Here in Greensboro we are on sara 1.89 but we had several small changes loaded into our access menu here.It seems slghtly navigator like with several sub catagorys in our access menu search screen.Also twice in the last two days a banner has come across the TV while I was watching saying Time Warner test in progress.Do not know what this means but thought it was interesting.
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post #904 of 18661 Old 06-18-2007, 02:12 PM
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Samsung was one of (perhaps the) early "partner" in working with Cable Labs (and Time Warner) in developing OCAP compliant sets. I believe that they are doing beta tests (I know that is a bad word on this forum) in NYC. While NYC is not a small market, the number of OCAP compliant Samsung sets there is - so I don't know how visible these tests are to the general public.

Again, there are two separate issues here: The FCC "seperable security" mandate, which takes place 7/1/07 and the OCAP effort. Ultimately it is expected that CableCards will be replaced by the downloadable security system (DCAS) and it looks like DCAS will need the OCAP platform. But one step at a time

RE: The question of new cable boxes having enhanced features: Probably not. It's kind of difficult for them to "offer" different levels of boxes (unless they found a way to charge more). The new boxes do have some additional RAM, but the processors are the same. So the new boxes are likely to react better to OCAP than the old ones - but it would be real difficult for the cable companies to change out all the old boxes for the new - particularly as the new ones cost around $100 more (with the CableCard).

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post #905 of 18661 Old 06-18-2007, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kcmotwcuser View Post

I understand TWC is focusing efforts on OCAP since they have to have that ready by 7/1/07. I have heard there have been HD box shortages due to the manufacturing switchover to OCAP hardware.

Again - WRONG! There is nothing that requires OCAP to be ready by 7/1/07! NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Box shortages are due to the (ordering and) manufacturing switchover to CableCard (brought about by the FCC ban on Integrated Security.

In short: CableCard mandate IS NOT a OCAP mandate.

Sorry to be such a pain about this - but people need to understand what is true and what isn't!

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post #906 of 18661 Old 06-18-2007, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

Again - WRONG! There is nothing that requires OCAP to be ready by 7/1/07! NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Box shortages are due to the (ordering and) manufacturing switchover to CableCard (brought about by the FCC ban on Integrated Security.

In short: CableCard mandate IS NOT a OCAP mandate.

Sorry to be such a pain about this - but people need to understand what is true and what isn't!

Maybe TWC has a deal with Samsung to use this box as their non-DVR cable card box and ditch SA:
http://www.samsung.com/Products/Home...T_H3050TWC.asp

That would require that they roll out OCAP in order to comply with the cable card mandate.

While there is no OCAP mandate, there are business factors that tie the two together to some degree.

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post #907 of 18661 Old 06-18-2007, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kcmotwcuser View Post

They only need to have the OCAP version of Navigator on 7/1/07. Because all the new boxes after that date have to be OCAP.

I keep telling you - there is NO Mandate for OCAP! OCAP is not needed for CableCard and CableCard is what will effectively be needed 7/1/07.

Why don't you understand that? Is that you actually believe TW?

Here is an article from a dedicated cable business oriented website on the subject.

Some highlights:
Quote:


Dating back to last year, separable security has been at the top of most cable operators' to-do lists. The "7/07" mandate by the Federal Communications Commission requires that cable operators no longer deploy digital set-top boxes with embedded security by the July 1 deadline.

Until downloadable conditional access (DCAS) reaches fruition, cable operators are staring at CableCards as the method of providing separable security to meet the FCC's mandate.

And:
Quote:


While separable security is charting its own course thanks to the FCC mandate, its often grouped together with the CableLabs' OCAP. Along with DCAS, OCAP will eventually provide a secure, two-way platform that will allow cable operators to safely, and more cost effectively, download software and applications into OCAP-enabled set-top boxes and TV sets, which makes separable security a necessary evil for the present.

OK?

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post #908 of 18661 Old 06-18-2007, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xnappo View Post

Maybe TWC has a deal with Samsung to use this box as their non-DVR cable card box and ditch SA:
http://www.samsung.com/Products/Home...T_H3050TWC.asp

That would require that they roll out OCAP in order to comply with the cable card mandate.

While there is no OCAP mandate, there are business factors that tie the two together to some degree.

xnappo

I think this hits the nail on the head and is why there is so much misinformation relative to Navigator, OCAP, and security mandates (or lack thereof). I think Dave's frustration is with TWC foisting this upon folks and blaming the FCC when the FCC is not requiring Navigator or Samsung OCAP boxes. There is nothing inherently wrong with what TWC is doing, they just need to be honest about it.

Cheers, Dave
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post #909 of 18661 Old 06-18-2007, 08:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kcmotwcuser View Post

Well TWC is only purchasing OCAP boxes. So if the 7/1/07 ruling mandates it or not. OCAP boxes are they are buying and OCAP Navigator is the only Guide they have for those boxes.

I believe that fact to be true.

Yes, the CableCard boxes (and many of the earlier ones) are OCAP capable. That does not mean that they have to run OCAP - just that they can run OCAP.

Here is the spec sheet for the SA8300C/HDC. You can see under features that is clearly supports several network environments, including OCAP and SARA. I've seen other statements that Passport is supported as well (that is not a SA product so they won't make Passport statements).

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post #910 of 18661 Old 06-18-2007, 09:11 PM
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There is a lot of confusion about the FCC's July 1, 2007 integration ban. About half the stories I have seen use the word "new"

Quote:


July 1, 2007: Cease the Use of New Set-Top Boxes with the Security Function
The FCC requires that by July 1, 2007, all MVPDs must cease selling or leasing new set-top boxes with integrated security and non-security functions.

and the other half don't.

Quote:


The "7/07" mandate by the Federal Communications Commission requires that cable operators no longer deploy digital set-top boxes with embedded security by the July 1 deadline.

The actual regulation uses the word "new." Here is the current regulation including the correct date with a link to the regulation:

ยง 76.1204 Availability of equipment performing conditional access or security functions.

(a)(1) A multichannel video programming distributor that utilizes navigation devices to perform conditional access functions shall make available equipment that incorporates only the conditional access functions of such devices. Commencing on July 1, 2007, no multichannel video programming distributor subject to this section shall place in service new navigation devices for sale, lease, or use that perform both conditional access and other functions in a single integrated device.

Click here for a discussion of the FCC's integration ban.

Can cable companies reuse STBs that have integrated security that have been returned and are still working after the July 1, 2007 integration ban?
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post #911 of 18661 Old 06-18-2007, 09:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RussB View Post

The actual regulation uses the word "new."

IMHO that's the only quote that counts.
Quote:


Can cable companies reuse STBs that have integrated security that have been returned and are still working after the July 1, 2007 integration ban?

I know of nothing that prevents it, though I'm sure that is equally misunderstood. The keyword has always been NEW, as in no new SA8300HDs (or any other new units with integrated security) after July 1.

I don't understand why this is so hard to understand. I think a lot of it is wishful thinking by some unhappy user's hoping their units will be replaced on July 1. Add to that the rumors surrounding Navigator, OCAP, and Samsung. Does anyone seriously think TWC is capable of replacing all units currently in-use with Samsungs running OCAP Navigator on July 1?

Cheers, Dave
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post #912 of 18661 Old 06-19-2007, 01:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldog1975 View Post


Regardless, there's an interesting little comment in the most recent TWC annual report,

http://www.secinfo.com/dsVsf.u1gz.htm
> ...
> ...
> TWC has developed a proprietary user interface and interactive programming
> guide that it expects to introduce in most of its operating areas during 2007.
> ...

Wow, I was ROFLMAO when I read that. Such complete irony. TWC told us that the main reason they couldn't use Passport in the future was that Passport was a proprietary user interface and that made it difficult for third party suppliers and outside vendors to integrate their add-ons into the guide because it was not an open system.
http://www.timewarnercable.com/nebra...ro/page_2.html

Now TWC admits that their system is proprietary also. How are we better off with Navigator?

It would be hilarious if it weren't so sad.
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post #913 of 18661 Old 06-19-2007, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by RussB View Post

Can cable companies reuse STBs that have integrated security that have been returned and are still working after the July 1, 2007 integration ban?

Yes, I've listened in on several cable conferences where this was discussed, and this clearly is what the FCC intended and what the cable companies intend to do. Everything that I have seen indicates that these "new" (CableCard equipped) boxes will simply be incorporated into the "pool" of similarly grouped (I mean "all HD DVRs", all "SD DVRs," etc.). So the customer orders a HD DVR service, the cable company might supply a brand new SA8300HDC, or a recycled SA8300HD, or even (heavens forbid) a SA8000HD - or perhaps a new Samsung product.

Right now, things are a bit tricky for the cable companies: They want to/need to capitalize on the HD demand, yet also need to keep their books balanced in regards to investing capital in cable box inventory. They had hopes that they could get the FCC to again delay the 7/1/07 date so that a true software downloadable security (DCAS) solution would be ready. The CableCard boxes cost them better than $100 more (between extra costs on box and the CableCard itself). So they held off ordering the CC boxes as long as they could. But, they also can't legally take a new box from existing inventory and install it in a customer's premises. They have got to use the existing new boxes up by 7/1. The result will be some shortages of HD boxes over the summer.

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post #914 of 18661 Old 06-19-2007, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

The CableCard boxes cost them better than $100 more (between extra costs on box and the CableCard itself).

Right... So this has me wondering if the Samsung boxes are ~$100 less that the SA solution and are thus pushing Navigator rollout. Only a few more days until we find out I guess.

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post #915 of 18661 Old 06-19-2007, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xnappo View Post

Right... So this has me wondering if the Samsung boxes are ~$100 less that the SA solution and are thus pushing Navigator rollout. Only a few more days until we find out I guess.

xnappo

Not one bit. The Samsung still needs a CableCard. It solves nothing!

Incidentally, I wouldn't jump to any conclusions about that Samsung box and TW. It isn't clear if it is intended for consumers to purchase directly (Samsung does have the distribution channels for that) or for sale to cable companies (or both). The goal of OCAP is to standardize the interfaces so that:
1) Customers can purchase equipment that will seamlessly work with cable systems.
2) Cable companies have greater choices in equipment they buy (use Motorola boxes in SA systems, for example).
3) New market opportunities are opened for new cable services (games, targeted advertisements, etc) via the ability to add third party applications to cable boxes (both those owned by cable and those owned by customers).

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post #916 of 18661 Old 06-19-2007, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

Not one bit. The Samsung still needs a CableCard. It solves nothing!

Incidentally, I wouldn't jump to any conclusions about that Samsung box and TW. It isn't clear if it is intended for consumers to purchase directly (Samsung does have the distribution channels for that) or for sale to cable companies (or both). The goal of OCAP is to standardize the interfaces so that:
1) Customers can purchase equipment that will seamlessly work with cable systems.
2) Cable companies have greater choices in equipment they buy (use Motorola boxes in SA systems, for example).
3) New market opportunities are opened for new cable services (games, targeted advertisements, etc) via the ability to add third party applications to cable boxes (both those owned by cable and those owned by customers).

I was just pointing out that the Samsung box, unlike the SA boxes NEEDS OCAP to function. It doesn't have a proprietary guide etc.

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post #917 of 18661 Old 06-19-2007, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xnappo View Post

Right... So this has me wondering if the Samsung boxes are ~$100 less that the SA solution and are thus pushing Navigator rollout. Only a few more days until we find out I guess.

I suspect Samsung gave them a good deal to get their foot in the door and might be taking less of a markup. I've been a little miffed that all this seems to be staying out of the retail market for now, but I'm bouyed by the thought of DCAS coming as early as late next year. I still think it's stupid to invest in CC inventory if DCAS and retail units are not that far off. I sure wish there were more difinitive info on just how all this is going to shake out, but I guess no one really knows at this point, other than conjecture and wishful thinking.

Cheers, Dave
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post #918 of 18661 Old 06-19-2007, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by DoubleDAZ View Post

I sure wish there were more difinitive info on just how all this is going to shake out, but I guess no one really knows at this point, other than conjecture and wishful thinking.

Yep - there used to be three knowledgeable Time Warner people I had access to online. They all seem to have fallen off the face of the earth.

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post #919 of 18661 Old 06-19-2007, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by xnappo View Post

Yep - there used to be three knowledgeable Time Warner people I had access to online. They all seem to have fallen off the face of the earth.

xnappo

Maybe they were told to "shut up"?

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post #920 of 18661 Old 06-19-2007, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

I said:I think that's correct.

Yes, the new (8300HDC) cable boxes with CableCards take the M-Series cards. But, all that buys right now is using ONE CableCard, instead of two. Ultimately, these cards may have broader uses - once OCAP is fully deployed - but that AIN'T 7/1/07!

Oooops, looks like I had a brain fart, yes you are 100% correct, I spazzed on the "stop" word, sorry.

Curious about them deploying other than SA boxes.

Isn't it true that only a 8300HDC + M-Card PLUS Navigator (i.e. the OCAP software) will produce essentially all that we "get" now with Passport/8300? Which SEEMS to say we may be getting stuck with navigator much sooner than we might have thought...

Time Warner NYC (Man North Head End) - 8742HD DVR ODN 5.2.0_9

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post #921 of 18661 Old 06-19-2007, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xnappo View Post

Yep - there used to be three knowledgeable Time Warner people I had access to online. They all seem to have fallen off the face of the earth.

xnappo

they were too competent and were fired. lol
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post #922 of 18661 Old 06-19-2007, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

1) Customers can purchase equipment that will seamlessly work with cable systems.
2) Cable companies have greater choices in equipment they buy (use Motorola boxes in SA systems, for example).
3) New market opportunities are opened for new cable services (games, targeted advertisements, etc) via the ability to add third party applications to cable boxes (both those owned by cable and those owned by customers).

Seems to me #1 is 100% from the marketing guys, #2 has little to do with revenue (nice to have but not a show stopper), the real guts is in #3. Not sure I'd call them 3rd party applications, wouldn't you say those will ONLY come from the TWCs of the world? A 3rd party app as I define it would be access to the iTunes Store... and that they will NEVER allow.

Of course, I'm wearing my Pepar The Cynic's hat!

Time Warner NYC (Man North Head End) - 8742HD DVR ODN 5.2.0_9

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post #923 of 18661 Old 06-19-2007, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Riverside_Guy View Post

A 3rd party app as I define it would be access to the iTunes Store... and that they will NEVER allow.

That's pretty much how I'd define it too, but I wouldn't bet against something like that at some point. I don't think you'll see cable taking the initiative, but I can see others wanting in as cable and internet become more intertwined. I think the only thing stopping a lot of development in this area is the rental of units vs retail sales.
Quote:
Of course, I'm wearing my Pepar The Cynic's hat!

When did pepar buy a hat and where can I get one?

Cheers, Dave
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post #924 of 18661 Old 06-19-2007, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riverside_Guy View Post

Curious about them deploying other than SA boxes.

Isn't it true that only a 8300HDC + M-Card PLUS Navigator (i.e. the OCAP software) will produce essentially all that we "get" now with Passport/8300? Which SEEMS to say we may be getting stuck with navigator much sooner than we might have thought...

I'm not sure if there are really any significant changes in the hardware and lower level code that requires much change on the part of Passport to work on a SA8300HDC as opposed to a SA8300HD. As I've indicated lately, the "C" boxes from SA are OCAP CAPABLE - but they work with the legacy software as well.

Of course, they could potentially deploy Navigator ONLY to the new boxes, and not push it to the rest of the system. I think that they would rather avoid the Navigator issue as much as they can - but if they did want to start, doing it ONLY with the "C" boxes (and new installations) would make some sense. I'm sure that you recognize that one issue with OCAP is that it uses more processor resources in the STB, the older boxes are a lot more limited than the latest ones (the "C" versions have some more RAM and Flash, but the processors are the same compared to the 8300 non C models).

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post #925 of 18661 Old 06-19-2007, 04:01 PM
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"new" can mean a lot of things. Sometimes simply opening a box and removing the contents makes the item "used". I'm sure the cable companies will do something like this to skirt the issue, they would just have to make sure the boxes are in inventory before 7/1
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post #926 of 18661 Old 06-19-2007, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by rdgcss View Post

"new" can mean a lot of things. Sometimes simply opening a box and removing the contents makes the item "used". I'm sure the cable companies will do something like this to skirt the issue, they would just have to make sure the boxes are in inventory before 7/1

I would be willing to bet that you will see "new" non-CC units put into service after July 1, but no "new" non-CC units added to inventory after July 1. There may already be no "new" non-CC units being added to inventory. I'd be very surprised if the FCC intends for "new" non-CC units added to inventory before July 1 to instantly become expensive doorstops. IMHO, "new" in this case simply means added to inventory after July 1, but I've been wrong before. What say you Dave?

Cheers, Dave
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post #927 of 18661 Old 06-19-2007, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleDAZ View Post

I would be willing to bet that you will see "new" non-CC units put into service after July 1, but no "new" non-CC units added to inventory after July 1. There may already be no "new" non-CC units being added to inventory. I'd be very surprised if the FCC intends for "new" non-CC units added to inventory before July 1 to instantly become expensive doorstops. IMHO, "new" in this case simply means added to inventory after July 1, but I've been wrong before. What say you Dave?

The FCC "rules" state:
Quote:
Commencing on July 1, 2007, no
multichannel video programming distributor
subject to this section shall
place in service new navigation devices
for sale, lease, or use that perform both
conditional access and other functions
in a single integrated device.

The words "shall place in service new navigation devices" seems to me to be fairly clear - "new" units in inventory on 7/1/07 that have integrated security can not be placed in service. It's possible that there may be some "wiggle room" there, but it's probably not a big deal in the large picture. I mean, if they have 2 weeks inventory of old boxes that they use in new deployments. Actually, the Canadian operators may get some real good deals on new SA8300HDs..........

Dave Hancock
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post #928 of 18661 Old 06-19-2007, 05:29 PM
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My bet is they deploy Navigator to new boxes, but leave the older less memory Passport boxes like Pioneer alone until they die out and need to be replaced, OR a customer wants some of the features talked about that would require a Navigator upgrade.

On the other hand, they could be working on ways to deploy Navigator to boxes with less memory. For instance, a safer and alternative browser to IE is Firefox, and Firefox can run on Operating Systems as old as Windows 98. I think Time Warner WANTS Navigator to be like Firefox. (But it really has been IE on Vista!) I suppose such a move to make Navigator more stable could be done, but ONLY if Time Warner hires and maintains outside engineers to do the necessary box upgrades or software downloads for an upgrade.

There is no way that Time Warner wants to have customers experience the horrors that people had with Navigator in Lincoln Nebraska. I just count my blessings each day with my Pioneer Passport box!

Have their been any service improvements in Lincoln Nebraska with TWC Navigator? When was your last software update downloaded to your boxes?

Jack

SA-8300-HDC: TWC Navigator: ODN 7.2.11

Metro-Milwaukee Wisconsin

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post #929 of 18661 Old 06-20-2007, 01:38 PM
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OK since I posted about the Navigator launch my source has dried up.What i was told that all comments on Navigator must come from the TWC Public Relations dept. That any comments by employees would not be allowed> It seems a veil of secrecrcy has dropped on Navigator.where this leaves Navigator and it's national launch is anyones guess.
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post #930 of 18661 Old 06-20-2007, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazywoody View Post

where this leaves Navigator and it's national launch is anyones guess.

It's TW's guess as well. After the disaster in Lincoln, I doubt very much that there will be any sort of large scale national roll-out till they have it squared away.

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