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post #151 of 18920 Old 12-29-2006, 11:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

If this (built on SARA codebase) is true - then how come the first roll-out is on Passport systems? (Believe it or not, this is an honest question.)

I've heard this explained before. I believe it's to get everyone one the same SARA based system as quickly as possible. If you changed over the SARA folks first, then you'd still have a 50/50 split. This way everyone will be on a SARA based platform to work from.
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post #152 of 18920 Old 12-29-2006, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by jacksonian View Post

I've heard this explained before. I believe it's to get everyone one the same SARA based system as quickly as possible. If you changed over the SARA folks first, then you'd still have a 50/50 split. This way everyone will be on a SARA based platform to work from.

This is true, according to Diana's post that Manatus dug up
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show...4&&#post8674104

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post #153 of 18920 Old 12-29-2006, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by jacksonian View Post

I've heard this explained before. I believe it's to get everyone one the same SARA based system as quickly as possible. If you changed over the SARA folks first, then you'd still have a 50/50 split. This way everyone will be on a SARA based platform to work from.

So you guys don't have answer then?

My understanding is that it IS NOT based on SARA, but rather on a new software standard (Open Cable Applications Platform) that has been defined by Cable Labs. The intent is to have a platform which allows third parties (TiVo is one example) to develop software which integrates into the cable system:
Quote:
OCAP Overview
The OpenCable Applications Platform (OCAP) specification is a middleware software layer specification. The OCAP specification is intended to enable the developers of interactive television services and applications to design such products so that they will run successfully on any cable television system in North America, independent of set-top or television receiver hardware or operating system software choices.

The OCAP specification enables manufacturers and retail distributors of set-tops, television receivers or other devices to build and to sell attractive and capable devices to consumers that will support all services delivered by cable operators to devices currently available to consumers via lease from cable operators.

For more information:
OCAP Site

In short: The Time Warner Digital Navigator is the first step by TW to implement OCAP into their system. But it's a shame that the first visible efforts are so short of people's expectations

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post #154 of 18920 Old 12-29-2006, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

So you guys don't have answer then?

Dave, what is your problem ? Can you not read the post LL3HD just posted, or are you choosing to ignore it ?

There's confirmation from this Diana person (I assume she's some TWC employee) that it is indeed based upon SARA. LL3HD posted a stale link, but I'd be far more inclined to believe LL3HD and Manatus than you and your distorted/skewed "understanding".
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post #155 of 18920 Old 12-29-2006, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Paul Simoneau View Post

Dave, what is your problem ? Can you not read the post LL3HD just posted, or are you choosing to ignore it ?

There's confirmation from this Diana person (I assume she's some TWC employee) that it is indeed based upon SARA. LL3HD posted a stale link, but I'd be far more inclined to believe LL3HD and Manatus than you and your distorted/skewed "understanding".


Nowhere in the posting that I quoted yesterday did TW's Director of Video Product Management, Diana, say that Navigator is based upon SARA. Here, once again, is a link to her actual words:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post8674104

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post #156 of 18920 Old 12-29-2006, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Manatus View Post

Nowhere in the posting that I quoted yesterday did TW's Director of Video Product Management, Diana, say that Navigator is based upon SARA. Here, once again, is a link to her actual words:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post8674104


Thanks for the refresh.

MDN stands for what, exactly ? M***** Digital Navigator, I assume. What's the "M" ?

I googled around a bit, and found a lot of references to TWC and ODN, which stands for OCAP Digital Navigator, and is based upon OpenTV. Even saw some screencaps, which by the way, look NOTHING like the screen caps that are on the TWC web sites. So, I have to believe it's an entirely different software package than what they're rolling out now.

So, as far as I can tell, the only relation between the ODN and MDN is a marketing label or slogan, and not the actual code that's running on the box.
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post #157 of 18920 Old 12-29-2006, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Paul Simoneau View Post

MDN stands for what, exactly ? M***** Digital Navigator, I assume. What's the "M" ?

M=Mystro

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post #158 of 18920 Old 12-29-2006, 12:08 PM - Thread Starter
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I may be wrong that Navigator is based on SARA, but it sure looks like it is and I thought I had read this confirmed before. I will have to search for it.

My question is this: davehancock was an active participant in that thread, posting all around that post of Diana's referenced where she clearly stated a reason for rolling out to PASSPORT first.

So why would davehancock post this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

If this (built on SARA codebase) is true - then how come the first roll-out is on Passport systems? (Believe it or not, this is an honest question.)

and this was quickly followed after my post by this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

So you guys don't have answer then?

My understanding is that it IS NOT based on SARA, but rather on a new software standard (Open Cable Applications Platform) that has been defined by Cable Labs. The intent is to have a platform which allows third parties (TiVo is one example) to develop software which integrates into the cable system:

So it doesn't seem like an honest question after all does it, now?

And I'm not sure his explanation regarding OCAP is entirely correct since OCAP is middleware and still has to have a software interface overlay, correct? OCAP to Navigator or SARA isn't apples to apples I don't believe.
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post #159 of 18920 Old 12-29-2006, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

My understanding is that it IS NOT based on SARA, but rather on a new software standard (Open Cable Applications Platform) that has been defined by Cable Labs.

I asked my contact at my local TWC about Mystro almost a year ago

Question:
Quote:


I wanted to mention this to you though I have a feeling that you can't or won't comment on this one. If so, I do understand.

Two people have contacted me via two different websites, one person is from FL (Brighthouse) and the other is from NC (TW), and mentioned that Time Warner has developed their own set-top software for SA boxes.

A few things struck me as odd though. One, TW uses more than just SA boxes and I'm sure they don't want different software out there. Two, you recently sent me an e-mail from someone (I presume from the NC "testing" labs) talking about features in more recent versions of Passport Echo and when they plan to start testing them.

Answer:
Quote:


Time Warner Cable plans to upgrade the set tops resident application from Passport (Pioneer or Aptiv) or SARA (SA) to the Mystro Digital Navigator (TWC). This is being trialed at other divisions. The MDN will the various set top code versions needed to support legacy SA, Pioneer and Pace set tops, as well as future Open Cable Application Platform compatible set tops. We'll upgrade sometime in the next year or so depending on how the trials and initial rollouts go. Given that software schedules are flaky, TWC is maintaining some parallel feature development for Passport and SARA.

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post #160 of 18920 Old 12-29-2006, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Simoneau View Post

Dave, what is your problem ? Can you not read the post LL3HD just posted, or are you choosing to ignore it ?

There's confirmation from this Diana person (I assume she's some TWC employee) that it is indeed based upon SARA. LL3HD posted a stale link, but I'd be far more inclined to believe LL3HD and Manatus than you and your distorted/skewed "understanding".

As Mantus pointed out, I did not have a distorted/skewed "understanding". The truth is that TW (as well as the other cable companies) has an effort underway to move to OCAP. The TW Digital Navigator (previously code named "Mystro") is the visable portion of this. They are moving first to replace Passport with this because that software has more severe shortcomings from a cable company standpoint.

I am afraid that it is you SARA bashers that have the distorted/skewed "understanding"!

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post #161 of 18920 Old 12-29-2006, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

As Mantus pointed out, I did not have a distorted/skewed "understanding". The truth is that TW (as well as the other cable companies) has an effort underway to move to OCAP. The TW Digital Navigator (previously code named "Mystro") is the visable portion of this. They are moving first to replace Passport with this because that software has more severe shortcomings from a cable company standpoint.

I am afraid that it is you SARA bashers that have the distorted/skewed "understanding"!

What Manatus reiterated had absolutely nothing to do with your wild-assed guess that MDN was based upon OCAP. It simply said that TWC was going ahead with MDN to provide additional services that they felt were easier to achieve than with Passport.

It's going to be a laugh-riot watching these cable guys roll out their next iteration of "musical security platforms". Let's see, they've been working on CableCard for how long ? Ten years now, with less than a million deployed ? There's some lightning-fast innovation for you! Let's see how long it takes them to shuffle the three card Montie cards with their new flavors of SDV and OCAP.

Man, you must have the phrases "from a cable company standpoint" and "SARA bashers" set up as hotkeys on your keyboard, because you sure as hell enter them a lot. Get some new material, would you...
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post #162 of 18920 Old 12-29-2006, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Simoneau View Post

What Manatus reiterated had absolutely nothing to do with your wild-assed guess that MDN was based upon OCAP. It simply said that TWC was going ahead with MDN to provide additional services that they felt were easier to achieve than with Passport.

No, what Manatus reiterated was that Passport lacked features that SARA had. Thus they were moving to replace Passport first.
Quote:


No Passport Divisions can get CID on TV, Enhanced TV, SDV, Start Over, Quick Clips, Sports Trackers, etc until they get MDN. As a result, Passport Divisions will get the MDN prior to SARA, so that they can become as technically capable as your system is now.

RE: "wild-assed guess"- No, it's not a guess. Any half serious observer of cable technology knows from various press releases, statements, conferences, etc. that MDN is part of the OCAP implementation.

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post #163 of 18920 Old 12-29-2006, 02:36 PM
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Diana why is it that Navigator has no manual recording option?
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post #164 of 18920 Old 12-29-2006, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Crazywoody View Post

Diana why is it that Navigator has no manual recording option?

I think you got lost, you need the TWC input thread. Although it looks very similar to the arguments in here now and Diana will probably ignore you just as much.


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post #165 of 18920 Old 12-29-2006, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacksonian View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post

... SD frees up bandwidth ...

No, ... SDV is just a way to save bandwidth. ...

Strange conversation.

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post #166 of 18920 Old 12-29-2006, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacksonian View Post

I may be wrong that Navigator is based on SARA, but it sure looks like it is and I thought I had read this confirmed before. I will have to search for it.

I don't see any reason to think that Navigator is based on SARA. My interpretation of what Diana said in the other thread is that TWC wants to implement SDV on all their systems as a priority and that both SARA and Navigator support SDV, while PASSPORT does not. So they want to replace PASSPORT with Navigator before replacing SARA with Navigator. This does not imply that Navigator was derived from SARA.

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post #167 of 18920 Old 12-29-2006, 06:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by GregLee View Post

Strange conversation.

Sure, it's strange when you chop it together like that. What I was trying to say was that they could put all the HD on a switched tier or any combination. That was in response to your statement about HD not being on a switched tier.
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post #168 of 18920 Old 12-29-2006, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post

I don't see any reason to think that Navigator is based on SARA. My interpretation of what Diana said in the other thread is that TWC wants to implement SDV on all their systems as a priority and that both SARA and Navigator support SDV, while PASSPORT does not. So they want to replace PASSPORT with Navigator before replacing SARA with Navigator. This does not imply that Navigator was derived from SARA.

Watch out, Greg. You make too much sense for the SARA-bashers here and you know what happens then. This and Diana's thread could both be summed up in one sentence, "if it's not Tivo, it's a POS" and anyone who doesn't buy their BS is the devil incarnate. In this case, I'm happy to side with the devil.

Cheers, Dave
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post #169 of 18920 Old 12-29-2006, 09:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DoubleDAZ View Post

Watch out, Greg. You make too much sense for the SARA-bashers here and you know what happens then.

Look, Paul, Dave #2 has "SARA-bashers" hotkeyed too! I'm just disappointed he couldn't fit in a pity pot. That really lets me down.

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Originally Posted by DoubleDAZ View Post

This and Diana's thread could both be summed up in one sentence, "if it's not Tivo, it's a POS" and anyone who doesn't buy their BS is the devil incarnate. In this case, I'm happy to side with the devil.

No, see, you're projecting there, Dave. You're the one who thinks we're evil. We don't think you're evil at all. We just think you're either a) truly ignorant of the competition in the market [doubtful] or b) just love to fantasize yourselves as defenders of the downtrodden [likely].
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post #170 of 18920 Old 12-29-2006, 09:43 PM
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No, I just like to rattle your cage, and you are such an easy target, during these days of holiday reruns. ROTFLMAO!!!!

Cheers, Dave
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post #171 of 18920 Old 12-29-2006, 09:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Come on, Dave, that's not cool! Seriously, two posts in a row from you without the pity pot. How can you keep letting me down like that? I guess I'll just have to keep reading your signature and chuckling over and over again.

And I think you just admitted to being a troll, didn't you?
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post #172 of 18920 Old 12-29-2006, 10:12 PM
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As far as you are concerned, yes, I am a troll. You offer nothing of substance, so that's what you get in return. I joined your thread to keep up to date on what is happening with Navigator, but you turn every thread you visit into a SARA-bashing exercise, to what end, I've yet to figure out. It's impossible to carry on a serious discussion of Navigator while you simply regurgitate your dislike of all things not Tivo ad nauseum. While I know you and Paul have serious difficulties with your versions of SARA, that is not true of all versions, especially the latest 1.88.x.x versions. Why you 2 can't just leave it at that is beyond me.

And then to state that Navigator is based on SARA when there is no basis in fact for such a statement is simply yet another example of you putting forth inaccurate information as fact. As I've said many, many times, you are free to bash all you want and I am free to correct you. Folks come to these threads for information, not personal vindictiveness and inaccuracies.

As for pity pots, I don't need one. I'm not the one still smarting from some software I wasn't able to use correctly. There, you happy now? I was able to work in "pity pot" just for you. :P

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post #173 of 18920 Old 12-30-2006, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kcmotwcuser View Post

So then be the bigger man and stop this, and lets move back to what the forum is about.

And that's what I will do. However, incorrect info will still be corrected, no matter what the source. FWIW, that's all I did to begin with, but in the future, attack responses will get no further comment.

Cheers, Dave
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post #174 of 18920 Old 12-30-2006, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by kcmotwcuser View Post

We have established that no one really knows what Navigator is built upon. From what I have seen of it, it sure looks SARAish. TWC surely didn't start from the ground up. But maybe they did.....

I think the current thought is they simply resurrected a past version of Navigator and are building fromt here. It's unfortuate that it's a step or 2 back for Passport users, but if the goal is to build something that supports SDV, etc., and is stable, it seems better to start with the basics and go forward fromt here. Hopefully, they will have more control over updates and roll them out quicker. If they don't and it's as bad as some say (not just lacking flashy graphics), they will find themsleves hurting quickly.
Quote:


Aptiv has an OPEN version of Passport. They have to or they would go under. Google search says that Aptiv is the only software company that provides software for Both SA and Motorola boxes. If the move to SDV is the future, they will have to provide software or go out of business.

Too true. I'm not sure what you mean by OPEN.

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post #175 of 18920 Old 12-30-2006, 05:02 PM
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Aptiv has an OPEN version of Passport. They have to or they would go under. Google search says that Aptiv is the only software company that provides software for Both SA and Motorola boxes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleDAZ View Post

Too true. I'm not sure what you mean by OPEN.

Dave, what I think he means is that Aptiv also has a OCAP compliant version of Passport. Virtually everyone is now working on OCAP compliant versions of their software.

Incidentally, for you TiVo fans, one of the objectives of OCAP is to enable consumer owned products (PVRs, TVs, Media Center PCs, etc.) to work seamlessly with cable (and all it's variations - including SDV). The problem is, that it does take time (as the folks who are currently alpha testing (it sure seems like it is pre-alpha) MDN can attest.

Another thought: I wonder if the reason that Pioneer unloaded Passport to Aptiv, is that they knew that the market was suddenly going to get tougher. And a third party (Aptiv) had a lot better chance of selling their software to someone like Panasonic than Pioneer would.

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post #176 of 18920 Old 12-30-2006, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by kcmotwcuser View Post

We have established that no one really knows what Navigator is built upon. From what I have seen of it, it sure looks SARAish. TWC surely didn't start from the ground up. But maybe they did, I understand Lincoln who has it since June of 06, went through 26 versions. So those folks really know what it is like to live in a test lab. I am sure that not all versions made it out the door to all customers. But even if they all got half of them, that would be a nightmare for anybody to come home every week to a new software load.

We here is KC just got a post card in the mail telling us about Navigator and all its possiblities. Sorry the word "Possiblities" reminds me of those TWC Flying Pink Pigs they had in ads when the tag line was "Now Anything is Possible". I guess we should expect the roller coaster ride to start sometime this month. I will be sure and post my 1st experience when I get up on morning to Navigator.

Aptiv has an OPEN version of Passport. They have to or they would go under. Google search says that Aptiv is the only software company that provides software for Both SA and Motorola boxes. If the move to SDV is the future, they will have to provide software or go out of business.

I don't have a Tivo or even plan to get one. I saw one a couple of years ago and really thought it was cute but all the beeps and bonks it makes would drive me wild. I am sure you could turn the sounds off, but I don't want to pay another $12 bucks a month for another TV service on top of the price of the Tivo box. I really like my SA8300HD DVR with Passport, I had a SA8000SD DVR and boy was that a boat anchor. But I guess I will learn to use Navigator or look at Dish or Everest the other cable company in town. I am one of the few lucky ones here in KC that also has an other Cable Company running down my alley way. Everest caused TWC to lower rates big time in the areas they both provide service. So I just stayed with TWC as they cut my bill in half to stay. Maybe once Navigator launches and they have to start cutting rates again to keep us, I will get another rate reduction.

I got the same mailing today. I'm up north in Smithville, MO so i only have twc as an option. I dont have the DVR, and dont plan on getting it. Personally, I feel that if i'mnot home to watch a show, then I must be doing something more important, but my parents do, and they record non-stop. Anyways, I have the HD box, and love it. I also use the movies on demand feature.

Bottom line, what is going to be the big deal with me? Will I need a new box? Will I still be able to watch movies on demand? I'm sure my HD wont be impacted. What about my other TV's which dont have a box, will they still get the basic analog channels? If any of these items are impacted, i'm done with twc.
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post #177 of 18920 Old 12-30-2006, 07:39 PM
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I kind of assumed OCAP, but AFAIK there are no OCAP-compliant versions available yet (other than alpha), so I wasn't sure that is what he meant or not, just wanted to be sure.

There is no doubt that OCAP will bring a whole new round of competition to the cable landscape and should allow consumer-owned DVRs to finally replace VCRs as the medium of choice for time-shifting. Once everyone can buy their DVR of choice, prices should come down and feature sets should rise. However, if TWCs planned deployment of OCAP will simply allow consumer hardware with TWC still controlling the software, then I'm not sure the level of competition will be as great as I'd hoped. I was hoping cable would provide a suite of software from different vendors at different price points. Of course, since they all strive to offer features comparable to Tivo, I'm not sure how this will all work out.

Cheers, Dave
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post #178 of 18920 Old 12-31-2006, 12:40 AM
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Avoiding analysis paralysis
By Jeff Baumgartner, Editor
June 1, 2005

What about Mystro?

Still relatively hush-hush is what is going on behind the scenes regarding navigation technology at Time Warner Cable and its erstwhile MystroTV division.

About a year ago, Time Warner Cable disclosed plans to remove existing IPGs from Scientific-Atlanta and Pioneer and replace them with new in-house navigation products. In addition to guides for the legacy boxes, Time Warner Cable is also hard at work on versions for OCAP (OpenCable Application Platform). The company has not disclosed timelines for the new "native" or OCAP-based "Mystro Digital Navigator" products.

As for innovation, there is word of advanced search features (that tie in VOD, the DVR and broadcast content), as well as a more intuitive in-channel navigation tool and multi-room support. A company spokesman said the project has three primary goals: to improve navigation and time-shifting, to create a more immersive programming experience, and to introduce compelling interactive content and services.


This is just a small part. For the entire article, click here
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post #179 of 18920 Old 12-31-2006, 06:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleDAZ View Post

There is no doubt that OCAP will bring a whole new round of competition to the cable landscape and should allow consumer-owned DVRs to finally replace VCRs as the medium of choice for time-shifting. Once everyone can buy their DVR of choice, prices should come down and feature sets should rise. However, if TWCs planned deployment of OCAP will simply allow consumer hardware with TWC still controlling the software, then I'm not sure the level of competition will be as great as I'd hoped. I was hoping cable would provide a suite of software from different vendors at different price points. Of course, since they all strive to offer features comparable to Tivo, I'm not sure how this will all work out.

Given the cableco's perpetual desire to control every facet of signal delivery(as any monopolist would), I believe that it's the likely scenario that they'll use OCAP to dump their own software on to consumer boxes. So, it's the same old same old. Sure, you can buy a box at Best Buy or Circuit City, but when you get home the cableco will dump whatever flavor of software THEY want to onto your box. Gee, thanks...

This is the consumer electronics industry's complaint against the system. There's still essentially no consumer choice when you get down to it. You can either rent a box, or buy a box, but in the end, they're both the same as far as functionality goes.

Your choices boil down to renting or buying a Honda Accord. That's it. There aren't any Yugos or Mercedes-Benz, only Accords. One size fits all. Where's the choice ????
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post #180 of 18920 Old 12-31-2006, 08:42 AM
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Paul,

I totally agree and I'm going to try hard to squeeze my cableco contact for that kind of info. Since he now runs the IT and 4-5 other divisions, he should be in a good position to know what they plan to do.

I've always maintained that even with DirecTV and Dish, and now FIOS, there is still very little competition, except maybe to hold rates down a tad. They are all very close in price/content, but you are stuck with whatever they offer for hardware/software, unless you want to shell out fairly significant dollars for something like Tivo that may have some difficulties sooner or later with SDV, etc. I assume their problems though are software-based and they are also working on an OCAP-compliant version.

Though I "think" there might be ulterior motives in TWC's move to in-house software, the fact that other cableco's are embracing Tivo as a 3rd party vendor holds out hope that others will be allowed to offer their packages just like Tivo with Moto/SA hardware. One would hope that OCAP will bring several models with varying capacities, built-in DVD recorders, etc. AFAIK, Tivo software does not reside on the cableco system, though it flows through the cableco for upload and upgrade. There should be no reason other vendors can't/won't do the same. Does anyone know exactly how all this will eventually work? The Other Dave?

Cheers, Dave
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